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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

megadude Jan 15, 2020 8:04 PM

I'm not complaining about FLA's arena location. My aunt's house in Coral Springs is a 10 minute drive. Very convenient for when I'm visiting. Was also convenient that the Leafs happened to be in town when I was last there.

But definitely an odd feeling location.

Djeffery Jan 15, 2020 9:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8800452)
The Panthers actually played in the Miami Arena (shared with the Heat) during the first 5-6 years of their existence.

Attendance wasn't stellar there either - about the same as in Sunrise.

There aren't any sure things in terms of building hockey support in South Florida, but I think moving closer to the snowbird population in Broward County (people from the northern states, Québécois and other Canadians) is probably not a bad calculation. Compare those demographics to those of central Miami in terms of hockey-interested people.

Their arena's location is not the source of their woes.

They were drawing 14k and change in an arena that held 14k and change, in downtown Miami. A third of their seasons in Sunrise have been lower than their best year in Miami. Only 2 seasons in Sunrise have been above 1500 per game higher than their Miami years.

Mister F Jan 16, 2020 5:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 8800093)
Cool, except it's the new expansion fees that matter in this context, and entering markets that can afford the $650 million fee (Vegas and Seattle) makes more money than Saskatoon and Quebec which would never be worth that much.

The point is that a new franchise would never command the premium that it does today if the league never expanded beyond traditional hockey markets. There isn't a Canadian market left that can justify paying the current price tag for a franchise, there is now examples of two non-traditional American markets in the few years that can... Arizona and Florida are acceptable loss leaders to NHL management if it results in even a few successes like Vegas, Nashville, most likely Seattle, etc.

The $500 million Quebec City bid was fully submitted. Quebecor could justify paying it and I think they know a bit more about the market conditions than you or me. With the way that all team values are increasing, $650 million is within reach of potential teams in cities like Hamilton or Quebec or a second team in Toronto. The expansion fee is a bet on the future by the entity that pays it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8800116)
These teams are worth double now what they were a decade ago.

So has every Canadian team. Tripled actually. NBA team values are 3-5x higher than they were a decade ago. Same with MLB. Every team in both leagues is worth more than US$1 billion. NFL teams are almost all over $2 billion. Bettman's so called growth in the sunbelt is utterly unremarkable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8800116)
The NHL did well just by being first into the Vegas market. You can say "so far" as many times as you like but to date Vegas has been an unmitigated success for the NHL and Seattle will absolutely be the same.




The new media deal will be a sizable increase over the current deal. [Source]

Like I said, we'll see. The Golden Knights are the only game in town, they're still new, and they made it to the finals in their first year. They're about to have a juggernaut to compete with. If they're still doing this well financially when they're a decade old then my skepticism will have been misplaced.

If the next NBC TV deal doubles it'll still be smaller than the Rogers deal. If it triples it'll be only slightly bigger. Not very impressive considering the population of the US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8800116)
So what do you propose? Moving Florida to Quebec City? The NHL does not get into a better situation by doing this for reasons i've already outlined and others have mentioned in this thread. Florida holds onto a pretty key area for the league (Southern Florida) and one with a lot of potential if the Panthers ever field a strong team. Florida can bleed money as much as it likes in operations - NHL revenues have doubled in the last decade, sponsorships are at an all-time high, and a new TV deal will provide additional revenue. Florida losing money every year is worth it for the overall growth potential that areas serves (~7M in pop.). Arizona's gains this year in season tickets, merchandise, and overall interest should provide a good blueprint.

Like I said, revenues doubling over a decade is hardly impressive considering what all the other sports have done. The NHL is treading water, relatively speaking.

I'm not proposing anything. This whole discussion got started when I simply pointed out that teams aren't located where the demand is and that if they were, there would be more teams in Canada and fewer in the US. For some reason a lot of Canadians seem to take offence to that fact and I have no idea why. In any case, nothing you've said has disproven my original point.

JHikka Jan 17, 2020 3:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F (Post 8801201)
So has every Canadian team. Tripled actually. NBA team values are 3-5x higher than they were a decade ago. Same with MLB. Every team in both leagues is worth more than US$1 billion. NFL teams are almost all over $2 billion. Bettman's so called growth in the sunbelt is utterly unremarkable.

We'll agree to disagree, then.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...5ca38fe6_o.png
Harris Poll, via BusinessInsider

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F (Post 8801201)
If the next NBC TV deal doubles it'll still be smaller than the Rogers deal. If it triples it'll be only slightly bigger. Not very impressive considering the population of the US.

It's still an increase in revenues and an increase in interest in the US, besides the fact that as of today there are a number of bidders interested in future NHL rights beyond just NBC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F (Post 8801201)
Like I said, revenues doubling over a decade is hardly impressive considering what all the other sports have done. The NHL is treading water, relatively speaking.

Again, we'll agree to disagree on this one.

Mister F Jan 19, 2020 4:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8802762)
We'll agree to disagree, then.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...5ca38fe6_o.png
Harris Poll, via BusinessInsider


It's still an increase in revenues and an increase in interest in the US, besides the fact that as of today there are a number of bidders interested in future NHL rights beyond just NBC.


Again, we'll agree to disagree on this one.

Since somebody brought up growth in the last decade, I Googled the actual numbers. Here's the collective value of NHL teams since then.

2009: $7 billion
2019: $21 billion
Growth: 217%

Sounds impressive, right? Until you look at what the NBA has done in the same amount of time.

2009: $11 billion
2019: $56 billion
Growth: 410%

So the NBA has grown almost twice as fast as the NHL and is almost triple the value of the NHL, and they've done it without expansion. Kind of makes the NHL's supposed growth look a bit less impressive doesn't it? A survey asking people their favourite sport is all well and good, but the money paints a different picture.

I know what someone is going to say. Canada is holding the NHL back. Which makes me sad that any self respecting Canadian would think like that, and yet here we are. Canadian teams are worth, on average, $685 million while US teams average $655 million, with sunbelt teams being significantly lower. The difference is more stark when you look at profits, and growth is the same between both countries.

EpicPonyTime Jan 19, 2020 9:55 PM

Canada isn't holding the NHL back at all. The reason the NBA has exploded in growth is because basketball is likely the second most popular sport in the world after soccer. The NBA has by far the biggest international growth potential out of any North American league, and the franchise values are reflective of the growth the league has fostered in places like China.

Acajack Jan 20, 2020 3:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F (Post 8804751)
Since somebody brought up growth in the last decade, I Googled the actual numbers. Here's the collective value of NHL teams since then.

2009: $7 billion
2019: $21 billion
Growth: 217%

Sounds impressive, right? Until you look at what the NBA has done in the same amount of time.

2009: $11 billion
2019: $56 billion
Growth: 410%

So the NBA has grown almost twice as fast as the NHL and is almost triple the value of the NHL, and they've done it without expansion. Kind of makes the NHL's supposed growth look a bit less impressive doesn't it? A survey asking people their favourite sport is all well and good, but the money paints a different picture.

I know what someone is going to say. Canada is holding the NHL back. Which makes me sad that any self respecting Canadian would think like that, and yet here we are. Canadian teams are worth, on average, $685 million while US teams average $655 million, with sunbelt teams being significantly lower. The difference is more stark when you look at profits, and growth is the same between both countries.

The NHL's revenue sharing (or "equalization") has also siphoned off countless millions from Canadian clubs to bail out sad-sack teams in the U.S. in recent years and decades.

And the NBA doesn't have nearly as many sad-sack teams like the NHL does. In fact, does the NBA have any teams that are like the Arizona Coyotes and a couple of others? I think not.

MacLac Jan 20, 2020 3:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8805410)
The NHL's revenue sharing (or "equalization") has also siphoned off countless millions from Canadian clubs to bail out sad-sack teams in the U.S. in recent years and decades.

And the NBA doesn't have nearly as many sad-sack teams like the NHL does. In fact, does the NBA have any teams that are like the Arizona Coyotes and a couple of others? I think not.

Orlando Magic - game there last year - $9 bucks got you a ticket and a beer and we were the ONLY people in the ENTIRE section......8,000 was the announced crowd....and that number seemed high....

suburbanite Jan 20, 2020 3:54 PM

The NBA got lucky that the largest country in the world fell in love with the sport of basketball. League-wide revenue and value projections took a serious hit during the whole Morey controversy this off-season.

I would hardly use that as proof that the NHL management is holding back growth. In that case, Saskatchewan's policy makers are obviously restricting real estate price appreciation because they're not keeping up with Vancouver.

esquire Jan 20, 2020 3:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacLac (Post 8805415)
Orlando Magic - game there last year - $9 bucks got you a ticket and a beer and we were the ONLY people in the ENTIRE section......8,000 was the announced crowd....and that number seemed high....

TV money baby. It's the same thing in Minnesota. Admittedly not a great team but $30 or so on Stubhub got me lower-bowl seats a few years back at a sparsely attended Timberwolves game. And that was a game with several players on the floor making in the $15-20 million dollar range... who knows what it's up to now.

Meanwhile in Winnipeg (or any Canadian market really) it's almost a hundred bucks for nosebleeds with the highest paid Jet earning a comparatively measly $8 million.

Maybe Americans can do us a solid and start watching NHL games on television so TV money will finally flow and they won't need to soak ticket buyers to pay the players?

suburbanite Jan 20, 2020 4:32 PM

Realistically, teams are going to charge whatever they can get away with. The perpetually terrible Knicks arent any cheaper because they could subsidize MSG losses with their tv deal. I'm sure both the Magic and the Coyotes would charge more if the demand was there.

GernB Jan 20, 2020 6:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacLac (Post 8805415)
Orlando Magic - game there last year - $9 bucks got you a ticket and a beer and we were the ONLY people in the ENTIRE section......8,000 was the announced crowd....and that number seemed high....

Yes...when the owners of the Montreal Canadiens expressed interest in bringing an NBA franchise to the city and inquired about availability, this was the team I thought they were after. A shame it didn't happen.

Denscity Jan 20, 2020 6:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacLac (Post 8805415)
Orlando Magic - game there last year - $9 bucks got you a ticket and a beer and we were the ONLY people in the ENTIRE section......8,000 was the announced crowd....and that number seemed high....

Vancouver would do way better than this.

wave46 Jan 20, 2020 7:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by megadude (Post 8800584)
I'm not complaining about FLA's arena location. My aunt's house in Coral Springs is a 10 minute drive. Very convenient for when I'm visiting. Was also convenient that the Leafs happened to be in town when I was last there.

But definitely an odd feeling location.

Florida is just a weird market in general. I'm not sure about basketball or football (the Dolphins seem to be OK?), but baseball's struggles in Florida have been notable.

The Marlins thought that a new modern stadium would help, but they still don't draw very well. The Rays also struggle despite being a competitive team, hence the overtures for a new stadium (which IMO won't fix the problem).

I'm not surprised that the NHL has struggled in Florida, the current Tampa Bay Lightning excepted. It almost seems like the culture of the place is unfriendly to sports in general.

But hey, there's a reason I'm not part of the NHL/NFL/MLB/NBA braintrust.

esquire Jan 20, 2020 7:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8805667)
Florida is just a weird market in general. I'm not sure about basketball or football (the Dolphins seem to be OK?), but baseball's struggles in Florida have been notable.

The Marlins thought that a new modern stadium would help, but they still don't draw very well. The Rays also struggle despite being a competitive team, hence the overtures for a new stadium (which IMO won't fix the problem).

I'm not surprised that the NHL has struggled in Florida, the current Tampa Bay Lightning excepted. It almost seems like the culture of the place is unfriendly to sports in general.

But hey, there's a reason I'm not part of the NHL/NFL/MLB/NBA braintrust.

Come to think of it, none of the major pro teams in Florida seem to do especially well at the box office:

-Magic
-Heat (unless they're in Lebron domination mode)
-Panthers
-Dolphins
-Buccaneers
-Jaguars
-Rays
-Marlins

The Lightning might actually be the best of the bunch.

I guess when you combine the nice weather and plethora of other things to do, combined with the fact that so many people come from elsewhere and don't have any allegiance to the home teams, the interest may just not be there.

Acajack Jan 20, 2020 7:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8805669)
Come to think of it, none of the major pro teams in Florida seem to do especially well at the box office:

-Magic
-Heat (unless they're in Lebron domination mode)
-Panthers
-Dolphins
-Buccaneers
-Jaguars
-Rays
-Marlins

The Lightning might actually be the best of the bunch.

I guess when you combine the nice weather and plethora of other things to do, combined with the fact that so many people come from elsewhere and don't have any allegiance to the home teams, the interest may just not be there.

It's a big college football state though.

U of Miami gets 55-65,000 per game and Florida (Gators) and Florida State (Seminoles) probably draw even more than that.

esquire Jan 20, 2020 7:42 PM

^ I didn't think the U drew quite as well anymore... although the Gators and Seminoles still do. Interesting snapshot of Florida culture right there, though... the northern part of the state where the Seminoles and Gators play are firmly entrenched in the southern SEC football-loving culture. You get away from that once you start to head south toward Orlando and the tip of the state where they don't care nearly as much.

As friends who are born and raised the Miami area once told us, in Florida you have to "go north to go south".

suburbanite Jan 20, 2020 7:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denscity (Post 8805629)
Vancouver would do way better than this.

If only the NBA had the vision to support a struggling franchise with the potential to grow into a stronger fan base than the easy option across the border...

Acajack Jan 20, 2020 7:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 8805686)
If only the NBA had the vision to support a struggling franchise that had the potential to grow into a stronger fan base than the easy option across the border...

LOL :haha:

Denscity Jan 20, 2020 7:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 8805686)
If only the NBA had the vision to support a struggling franchise that had the potential to grow into a stronger fan base than the easy option across the border...

Yes and now Vancouver has a larger population and is more international in its mix.


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