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thenoflyzone Mar 2, 2021 2:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 9203958)

I also thought the Dash 8-300s were sticking around longer and being refurbished. I can't imagine the CRJ200s staying too much longer either. It doesn't look good for the <70 seat markets in Canada if AC is fleeing.

Indeed it doesn't. The regional fleet will be changing a lot in the coming years. The Q300 dump by AC is clearly a sign that AC won't be in a hurry to return to all those secondary regional airports it closed shop at.

The CRJ200s wont stay in the fleet much longer.

Also, I would bet those E175s aren't going to stick around for too long either. Jazz's CRJ900 fleet is younger than the incoming E175s and is more fuel efficient as well. The E175 is more popular than the CRJs with passengers, but as far as airline preference goes, the CRJ900's cost/seat mile advantage will be the deciding factor.

Jazz could end up being solely a Q400/CRJ900 outfit after 2025.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 9203953)
Does this mean another Tier 3 carrier is going to be subcontracted to provide AC service under 70 seats?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexcaban (Post 9204060)
Yes the end of sky regional.
They cut to save money so I doubt they’ll contract another carrier

AC is laughing so hard right now. Their CPA with Jazz is signed until 2035. Jazz pilots have also signed a super long collective agreement with concessions in order to stay competitive against sky/Georgian. And now, GGN and Sky are no more . :shrug:

AC won't be in a rush to subcontract another carrier for now, as cost containment on the regional level is assured until 2035. Merging all their regional operations under Jazz, because of this stability, was inevitable. That being said, in 7-10 years time, they will need to start shopping for another regional carrier to put pressure on Jazz when comes time to renegotiate the CPA.

Maybe this is why they didn't commit to the Q300s with Jazz. To keep the door open in the medium term to contract another carrier for the job.

The name of the game is always the same in the regional market. You need to pin two operators against each other to squeeze out the efficiencies you want out of them.

The minimum fleet guarantee in the CPA with Jazz is for 105 frames until 2025 and only 80 aircraft after 2026. Expect AC to announce another regional carrier contract sometime around the 2025-2030 timeframe. Maybe even sooner if the industry recovers quicker than expected, and if AC feels they can get better costs with another carrier.

Dominion301 Mar 2, 2021 2:38 PM

Given the pandemic, this milestone went unnoticed. Yesterday was WestJet's 25th anniversary. They launched on February 29, 1996.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...823709508.html

thenoflyzone Mar 2, 2021 2:53 PM

It's encouraging to see airlines like Austrian and Brussels Airlines recommit to the YUL market, even though the chances of them resuming on the given dates are low.

If nothing else, it shows a good chance of them resuming/launching service eventually, if/when governments lift the restrictions.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/l...k-this-summer/

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/l...els-frankfurt/

Quote:

From May, Austria’s home carrier will once again be flying three times a week to Montreal and New York JFK
Quote:

Washington DC and New York are planned to be operated as of June 14, Montreal joins the network on June 15. These will be the first North-Atlantic flights of Brussels Airlines since March 21st, 2020.

wave46 Mar 2, 2021 3:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9204861)
Also, I would bet those E175s aren't going to stick around for too long either. Jazz's CRJ900 fleet is younger than the incoming E175s and is more fuel efficient as well. The E175 is more popular than the CRJs with passengers, but as far as airline preference goes, the CRJ900's cost/seat mile advantage will be the deciding factor.

Jazz could end up being solely a Q400/CRJ900 outfit after 2025.

The E175 remains pretty popular worldwide and the CRJ is basically out of production now, so they might not be so excited to dump the E175 unless they can pick up lightly used CRJ900s cheap.

The preference for jets to US customers/destinations means they won't use the Q400, so I think a substantial E175 fleet remains in the cards.

hollywoodcory Mar 2, 2021 5:03 PM

Looks like AC is going to start selling the ICN-YVR/YYZ leg of AC28 & AC26 beginning from March 15th. Previously the ICN stop was for a crew change.

whatnext Mar 2, 2021 7:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9204861)
Indeed it doesn't. The regional fleet will be changing a lot in the coming years. The Q300 dump by AC is clearly a sign that AC won't be in a hurry to return to all those secondary regional airports it closed shop at.

The CRJ200s wont stay in the fleet much longer.

Also, I would bet those E175s aren't going to stick around for too long either. Jazz's CRJ900 fleet is younger than the incoming E175s and is more fuel efficient as well. The E175 is more popular than the CRJs with passengers, but as far as airline preference goes, the CRJ900's cost/seat mile advantage will be the deciding factor.

Jazz could end up being solely a Q400/CRJ900 outfit after 2025.

AC is laughing so hard right now. Their CPA with Jazz is signed until 2035. Jazz pilots have also signed a super long collective agreement with concessions in order to stay competitive against sky/Georgian. And now, GGN and Sky are no more . :shrug:

AC won't be in a rush to subcontract another carrier for now, as cost containment on the regional level is assured until 2035. Merging all their regional operations under Jazz, because of this stability, was inevitable. That being said, in 7-10 years time, they will need to start shopping for another regional carrier to put pressure on Jazz when comes time to renegotiate the CPA.

Maybe this is why they didn't commit to the Q300s with Jazz. To keep the door open in the medium term to contract another carrier for the job.

The name of the game is always the same in the regional market. You need to pin two operators against each other to squeeze out the efficiencies you want out of them.

The minimum fleet guarantee in the CPA with Jazz is for 105 frames until 2025 and only 80 aircraft after 2026. Expect AC to announce another regional carrier contract sometime around the 2025-2030 timeframe. Maybe even sooner if the industry recovers quicker than expected, and if AC feels they can get better costs with another carrier.

Talked to somebody with knowledge and apparently the Skyregional pilots will transfer to Jazz but the cabin crew are SOL. The article below seems to confirm it:

Sky Regional Airlines to close after losing Air Canada Express contract

ERIC ATKIN STRANSPORTATION REPORTER
PUBLISHED MARCH 2, 2021

Sky Regional Airlines Inc. will shut down its commercial flight operations on March 31 after losing its Air Canada Express contract, becoming the first mid-sized Canadian airline to fall victim to the pandemic.

Toronto-based Sky Regional, which employs about 650 people, flies 25 Embraer E175 planes branded as Air Canada Express.

Air Canada said on Monday it will make Chorus Aviation’s Jazz subsidiary the lone operator of Air Canada Express flights, and transfer the planes to Jazz Aviation. The move means the union that represents about 300 Sky Regional pilots will begin negotiations to transfer members to Jazz, amid a pandemic that has seen thousands of airline employees laid off....

....The transfer of the pilots to Jazz Aviation is subject to negotiations between Air Line Pilots Association and Jazz.

“Further to the termination of the [Air Canada agreement] between Air Canada and Sky Regional, Sky Regional will cease its operations and business, which includes, except for the pilots, the termination of employment for all its employees on March 31, 2021,” Sky Regional told employees in a memo, a copy of which was obtained by the Globe and Mail...


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...anada-express/

thenoflyzone Mar 2, 2021 7:57 PM

^

With 600 Jazz pilots on layoff, they must be ecstatic about that ! They will most likely merge both seniority lists based on DOH (same as when Georgian came over), so junior Jazz pilots will get screwed even more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 9204899)
unless they can pick up lightly used CRJ900s cheap.

They most likely will be able too.

Quote:

The preference for jets to US customers/destinations means they won't use the Q400, so I think a substantial E175 fleet remains in the cards.
Could be, yes. We'll see what happens. One thing is for sure, with the minimum fleet guarantee going from 105 frames to 80 after 2025, that means 25 frames are most likely gone by then. Some of those are the CRJ200s. The rest are most likely some E175s.

whatnext Mar 2, 2021 9:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9205249)
^

With 600 Jazz pilots on layoff, they must be ecstatic about that ! They will most likely merge both seniority lists based on DOH (same as when Georgian came over), so junior Jazz pilots will get screwed even more.

They most likely will be able too.

Could be, yes. We'll see what happens. One thing is for sure, with the minimum fleet guarantee going from 105 frames to 80 after 2025, that means 25 frames are most likely gone by then. Some of those are the CRJ200s. The rest are most likely some E175s.

I suspect there wasn't much choice. None of the Jazz pilots are qualified on the E175 and won't be for a while.

I'd be very curious to learn more about the mysterious takeover offer for Jazz that was disclosed a few months ago, who was behind it and how it might have factored into AC's decision to hand all Express flying to Jazz.

casper Mar 3, 2021 4:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 9205330)
I suspect there wasn't much choice. None of the Jazz pilots are qualified on the E175 and won't be for a while.

I'd be very curious to learn more about the mysterious takeover offer for Jazz that was disclosed a few months ago, who was behind it and how it might have factored into AC's decision to hand all Express flying to Jazz.

Was the takeover of Jazz or was it of Chorus Aviation. Chorus owned both Jazz and Voyageur Airways.

J.OT13 Mar 3, 2021 2:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9205851)
Ottawa Union is majestic. Probably the best mid-century transportation facility in Canada.

It is heartwarming to see how nicely it is respected and preserved... it's a nice contrast with the old Winnipeg Airport which was pure 1960s elegance but by its later years was so poorly maintained and cluttered with so much crap that its beauty was hard to notice.

Quick Google search to see the old Winnipeg Airport. That was an impressive structure.

https://www.waa.ca/uploads/f/james2010/towerold.jpg
https://www.waa.ca/uploads/f/james20...course_old.jpg
https://www.waa.ca/blog/post/55/anot...-from-the-past

https://www.waa.ca/uploads/f/james20...age%20area.jpg
https://www.waa.ca/blog/post/33/old-baggage-claim

More info: https://www.winnipegarchitecture.ca/...rdson-airport/

Ottawa also had a beautiful mid-century airport terminal.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GTlUan1P91...8/s400/287.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-k1mY3dM7Wo.../s400/air5.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bDoOuivapI.../s400/air2.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Nh_eihZlr0.../s400/air3.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GU5OH3Fa5I...0/strutt-2.jpg
http://urbsite.blogspot.com/2012/12/...s-airport.html

Although it's sad to see Winnipeg and Ottawa have lost their original passenger terminals, I think that both were able to build fantastic new facilities for their needs. Best airports I've seen (to be fair, I haven't traveled much and only within Canada).

Dorval is the only airport I can think of today that still embodies the architecture from that time, at least from the outside.

casper Mar 3, 2021 3:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13 (Post 9205918)
Dorval is the only airport I can think of today that still embodies the architecture from that time, at least from the outside.

Vancouver domestic terminal is still for the most part the same core building however the front has been dramatically changed.

The Vancouver South Terminal is the old terminal building that pre-dated the current terminal building. More glass now but still the basic same structure.

Dominion301 Mar 3, 2021 4:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13 (Post 9205918)
Quick Google search to see the old Winnipeg Airport. That was an impressive structure.

https://www.waa.ca/uploads/f/james2010/towerold.jpg
https://www.waa.ca/uploads/f/james20...course_old.jpg
https://www.waa.ca/blog/post/55/anot...-from-the-past

https://www.waa.ca/uploads/f/james20...age%20area.jpg
https://www.waa.ca/blog/post/33/old-baggage-claim

More info: https://www.winnipegarchitecture.ca/...rdson-airport/

Ottawa also had a beautiful mid-century airport terminal.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GTlUan1P91...8/s400/287.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-k1mY3dM7Wo.../s400/air5.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bDoOuivapI.../s400/air2.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Nh_eihZlr0.../s400/air3.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GU5OH3Fa5I...0/strutt-2.jpg
http://urbsite.blogspot.com/2012/12/...s-airport.html

Although it's sad to see Winnipeg and Ottawa have lost their original passenger terminals, I think that both were able to build fantastic new facilities for their needs. Best airports I've seen (to be fair, I haven't traveled much and only within Canada).

Dorval is the only airport I can think of today that still embodies the architecture from that time, at least from the outside.

Thanks for the great pics from the past. While YOW's old terminal originally was nice architecturally, it was too small compared with YWG as can be seen. The 1980s expansion of the YOW terminal turned it into a cold, embarrassing and overcrowded way to welcome people to the Nation's Capital. It was likened to a bus terminal. The modern day terminal is fantastic and world capital worthy...they've won a lot of awards since it opened in October 2003. YWG's modern terminal is also fantastic.

I know some will say, 'I don't want these monopolies building Taj Majhals', but I personally would much rather pay a few extra $ in AIF for a nice and appealing facility than being at a dump...otherwise LGA would have no reason to rebuild.

hollywoodcory Mar 3, 2021 4:19 PM

YYC has posted its January stats and they're not bad.

Domestic: 205,443 -80.1%
Transborder: 29,860 -89.4%
International: 19,620 -89.0%
January Total: 253,943 -81.1%

This may end up being the best preforming month, possibly until May. International is once again back down to just KLM. Transborder routes are still a lot better than they were last April though (Was only AA / DL).

If Canada really meets Trudeau's vaccination goal of August, and the US continues at its pace perhaps Domestic/Transborder travel can see decent recovery by Fall/Winter.

J.OT13 Mar 3, 2021 4:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9205996)
Vancouver domestic terminal is still for the most part the same core building however the front has been dramatically changed.

The Vancouver South Terminal is the old terminal building that pre-dated the current terminal building. More glass now but still the basic same structure.

The Domestic terminal is so well integrated with the modern extensions, I had no idea it dated from 1968.

Never seen the South terminal building. Very mid-century, cabin in the woods Canadian architecture.

---

In other news, there's a petition to rename the P.E.T. Airport for René Lévesque.

I have no issue renaming the airport since the senior Trudeau essentially tried to kill it with Mirabel, but I'm not sure Lévesque is the right choice for a new name, for reasons beyond just politics.

In any case, the Transport Minister is not onboard with the name change proposal which is no surprise considering the historical context.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tru...tion-1.5934111

esquire Mar 3, 2021 8:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13 (Post 9205918)
Although it's sad to see Winnipeg and Ottawa have lost their original passenger terminals, I think that both were able to build fantastic new facilities for their needs. Best airports I've seen (to be fair, I haven't traveled much and only within Canada).

Dorval is the only airport I can think of today that still embodies the architecture from that time, at least from the outside.

I kind of missed the boat on that golden age of 60s airport glory that Canada had a fair bit of. I guess there was some of it still around in the 90s when I started travelling by air, but I just don't remember much of it. Edmonton, Vancouver and Montreal still have some of their old terminals in use but they have been so heavily renovated that you wouldn't really know it in the inside.

I guess only Gander is really left among Canadian air terminals with that 60s flair... or am I overlooking any?

Winnipeg was probably the last major airport that still had that look, but as I said before, the airport authority got out of control with cluttering the inside and maintaining it poorly in its later years... the airport ca. 1965 compared to the airport ca. 2005 were practically two different buildings.

Pegasus Mar 3, 2021 8:52 PM

I love these old photographs. Note how smartly dressed people were in those days. Now it's mass cut-price travel and everybody in shorts, torn t-shirts and flip flops. The Liz Taylor/Richard Burton 1963 movie "The VIPs" really captures Heathrow back in the early 60's with lots of airport terminal footage.

ghYHZ Mar 3, 2021 10:36 PM

Canada's new airports of the early '60s: YYC YEG YQX YHZ YUL

http://www.airporthistory.org/photos...jet-age-1.html

wave46 Mar 3, 2021 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus (Post 9206469)
I love these old photographs. Note how smartly dressed people were in those days. Now it's mass cut-price travel and everybody in shorts, torn t-shirts and flip flops. The Liz Taylor/Richard Burton 1963 movie "The VIPs" really captures Heathrow back in the early 60's with lots of airport terminal footage.

The smoking would kill me.

Also, if I'm sitting in a narrow seat in an aluminum tube for 8 hours, a modicum of comfort concession in clothing attire is nice. I'm not talking stained sweat pants, but I don't want to wear a tie and dress pants either.

The classy of the '60s makes for nice photos though.

CityTech Mar 4, 2021 2:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13 (Post 9206043)
The Domestic terminal is so well integrated with the modern extensions, I had no idea it dated from 1968.

Never seen the South terminal building. Very mid-century, cabin in the woods Canadian architecture.

---

In other news, there's a petition to rename the P.E.T. Airport for René Lévesque.

I have no issue renaming the airport since the senior Trudeau essentially tried to kill it with Mirabel, but I'm not sure Lévesque is the right choice for a new name, for reasons beyond just politics.

In any case, the Transport Minister is not onboard with the name change proposal which is no surprise considering the historical context.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tru...tion-1.5934111

Quote:

That response comes after an online petition calling for the international airport to be renamed after former PQ Premier René Lévesque collected thousands of signatures. The petition, launched Monday morning, says new reports about Trudeau's response to the PQ's election in 1976 make him unworthy of the honour.
Ironic that Quebec nationalists are always criticizing "cancel culture" and "wokeism" but when it comes to something about their own history, they're all on board with it. I'd have more respect for their opposition to "wokeism" if it was less hypocritical.

wave46 Mar 4, 2021 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CityTech (Post 9206849)
Ironic that Quebec nationalists are always criticizing "cancel culture" and "wokeism" but when it comes to something about their own history, they're all on board with it. I'd have more respect for their opposition to "wokeism" if it was less hypocritical.

Pierre Elliot Trudeau Airport is probably the most poorly named of Canadian airports, given his legacy.

Just call it Dorval Airport and be done with it.


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