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SDCAL Jan 6, 2008 6:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IconRPCV (Post 3262510)
My San Diego pet peeve #1. Why is there no trolley going up the median of hwy 163 to link downtown uptown and mission valley? That seems the best alignment to me but a trolley going up park blvd and then down into the valley to fashion valley would work too. We need to stop adding lanes to freeways, all this does is allow for more cars and therefore more gridlock.

What's even more hideous is that it doesn't even go up the hill to Uptown (Hillcrest---North Park). In most major cities, the uptown areas are often creative enclaves adjacent to downtown that offer a wide variety of entertainment, dining, retail, arts, etc. Our Uptown is no different, with the dining and nightlife in Hillcrest and the bohemian art scene in North Park. A trolley link that goes up the hill, with a stop at the zoo, then up to a stop in Hillcrest and North Park seems like a no-brainer.

I know the logistics make it difficult, but it's not impossible. It amazes me that our pathetic trolley system goes to the border and SDSU, but not even up the hill to Uptown.

While I'm griping, it is also disgusting that it doesn't go up to UTC/La Jolla/Sorrento Valley where alot of the biotech and professional jobs are.

San Diego is a nice town, but in terms of mass transit we have a long, long, LONG way to go. And unfortuantely, SANDAG continues to focus on building more far-flung freeways and toll-roads instead of mass transit. With their incompitance we are destined to be another LA, endless sprawl and strip-malls. Even thought it will never happen because it's too "radical" for our conservative city, I think heavy rail (subway) would make our city thrive in terms of urban expansion

Urban Sky Jan 6, 2008 6:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek loves SD (Post 3263190)
Even though the system does suck, it's still the fourth most ridden light rail system in the country with about 124,300 boardings per day.

I'm not really even talking about the trolley. That is actually the one part of the system that is working fairly efficiently. But as I am sure you noticed, the Trolley doesn't really even go anywhere. It connects very few of all possible communities in the urban/suburban San Diego region. And 124k? It pales in comparison to a rail system that is actually done correctly. NYC's subway ALONE has over 635,000 riders daily and they also have an effective bus system that carries over 2.28 million people daily. Their BUS system is even more used than their rail system.
And THAT is what I am talking about. San Diego obviously has no real plans to extend the light rail to other communities, therefore leaving the rail system lacking service area. One would think that they would in stead, beef up their buses to compensate, but their bus system is horrible. San Diego is trying really hard to be a world class city, scaled down. They are never going to get there if they get complacent with the crap they call public transportation here.

Urban Sky Jan 6, 2008 6:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDCAL (Post 3263219)
What's even more hideous is that it doesn't even go up the hill to Uptown (Hillcrest---North Park). In most major cities, the uptown areas are often creative enclaves adjacent to downtown that offer a wide variety of entertainment, dining, retail, arts, etc. Our Uptown is no different, with the dining and nightlife in Hillcrest and the bohemian art scene in North Park. A trolley link that goes up the hill, with a stop at the zoo, then up to a stop in Hillcrest and North Park seems like a no-brainer.

I know the logistics make it difficult, but it's not impossible. It amazes me that our pathetic trolley system goes to the border and SDSU, but not even up the hill to Uptown.

While I'm griping, it is also disgusting that it doesn't go up to UTC/La Jolla/Sorrento Valley where alot of the biotech and professional jobs are.

San Diego is a nice town, but in terms of mass transit we have a long, long, LONG way to go. And unfortuantely, SANDAG continues to focus on building more far-flung freeways and toll-roads instead of mass transit. With their incompitance we are destined to be another LA, endless sprawl and strip-malls. Even thought it will never happen because it's too "radical" for our conservative city, I think heavy rail (subway) would make our city thrive in terms of urban expansion

Well said, I really do agree. :tup:

Derek Jan 6, 2008 7:24 AM

Quote:

While I'm griping, it is also disgusting that it doesn't go up to UTC/La Jolla/Sorrento Valley where alot of the biotech and professional jobs are.
They [SANDAG] actually are planning the "Mid-Coast Extenstion" line up to UTC. Keyword: "planning"


As for an extension to Hillcrest and the zoo and the other urban communities in the area, an underground trolley system (similar to the route running underneath SDSU) running from maybe One America Plaza sounds good doesn't it?

SDCAL Jan 6, 2008 5:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek loves SD (Post 3263262)
They [SANDAG] actually are planning the "Mid-Coast Extenstion" line up to UTC. Keyword: "planning"


As for an extension to Hillcrest and the zoo and the other urban communities in the area, an underground trolley system (similar to the route running underneath SDSU) running from maybe One America Plaza sounds good doesn't it?

that does sound good - or even on the east side of Balboa Park.

The trolley already goes as far north as Smart Corner, which CCDC dubs part of it's "Park to Bay link", the only problem is the attractions at the park are much further north. Nobody is going to ride the trolley to Smark Corner then walk up to Balboa Park, it's not a very padestrian friendly stretch.

An underground line that goes up Park with a stop at the zoo and then a stop at Park and University would be great. It would link one of our most famous destinations (zoo) as well as the other attractions at Balboa Park, then provide a stop right at the Hillcrest/North Park border. Since University Ave is pretty pedestrian oriented, passengers could depart the trolley and walk to areas in Hillcrest to the West and NP to the East. Just two trolley stops and it would really link up some important areas of the city

ah, if only SANDAG, the politicians, CCDC and other decision makers read this blog to see what the citizens actually think! :irked:

keg92101 Jan 6, 2008 5:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek loves SD (Post 3263190)
Even though the system does suck, it's still the fourth most ridden light rail system in the country with about 124,300 boardings per day.

Their 4th out of I wonder how many of its size? Who are they behind? Portland, Denver, etc...? This system totally sucks. The DTSD Partnership wants to do a DT loop, that is more frequent and only uses two cars so that it won't block traffic along C street. Do you know how many people would use the DT loop if they new it would run every 3-5 minutes and it wouldn't stop at traffic signals (they simply coordinate the lights with the trolley)? I know we would use it for every inner DT trip! We got a Vespa because the trolley is so unreliable, and most times, if you miss it, you have to wait a half-hour for the next one.

SD needs to rezone the inner city for more density (Bankers Hill, University Heights, Golden Hill, North Park, etc..) and then begin planning a subway system similar to Washington DC.

GO BOLTS!
GO JAGS!
Here's to a home AFC Championship!

keg92101 Jan 6, 2008 5:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban Sky (Post 3263229)
NYC's subway ALONE has over 635,000 riders daily and they also have an effective bus system that carries over 2.28 million people daily.

635K? I thought it was well over 1 million. The 2nd avenue subway project is anticipating 500K alone.

Derek Jan 6, 2008 6:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg92101 (Post 3263690)
Their 4th out of I wonder how many of its size? Who are they behind? Portland, Denver, etc...? This system totally sucks. The DTSD Partnership wants to do a DT loop, that is more frequent and only uses two cars so that it won't block traffic along C street. Do you know how many people would use the DT loop if they new it would run every 3-5 minutes and it wouldn't stop at traffic signals (they simply coordinate the lights with the trolley)? I know we would use it for every inner DT trip! We got a Vespa because the trolley is so unreliable, and most times, if you miss it, you have to wait a half-hour for the next one.

SD needs to rezone the inner city for more density (Bankers Hill, University Heights, Golden Hill, North Park, etc..) and then begin planning a subway system similar to Washington DC.

GO BOLTS!
GO JAGS!
Here's to a home AFC Championship!


It's behind Boston (with 255,100 daily ridership), San Francisco (with 146,200 daily ridership, and Los Angeles (with 134,400 daily ridership). Portland is fifth, with 107,900 daily ridership. All of these have similar track lengths, with the exception of Boston, which only has 25.4 miles of track. San Diego, Los Angeles, San Franciso and Portland have 53.5, 55.7, 66.1 and 50 miles of track, respectively.


Go Chargers. :)

mello Jan 8, 2008 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek loves SD (Post 3263791)
It's behind Boston (with 255,100 daily ridership), San Francisco (with 146,200 daily ridership, and Los Angeles (with 134,400 daily ridership). Portland is fifth, with 107,900 daily ridership. All of these have similar track lengths, with the exception of Boston, which only has 25.4 miles of track. San Diego, Los Angeles, San Franciso and Portland have 53.5, 55.7, 66.1 and 50 miles of track, respectively.


Go Chargers. :)


Is that mileage for the San Diego system including the Sprinter? Because that will add about 17 miles of track!! Btw, is that open yet. I'm actually back in SD (San Marcos) so I will go check it out if it is open..... Yep New York didn't quite work out as I had thought so I'm back LOL!!! :haha:

HurricaneHugo Jan 8, 2008 12:59 AM

Yea it just opened, take pics!

Derek Jan 8, 2008 1:13 AM

It doesn't include Sprinter, but that's technically another system.

bmfarley Jan 8, 2008 4:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg92101 (Post 3263690)
Their 4th out of I wonder how many of its size? Who are they behind? Portland, Denver, etc...? This system totally sucks. The DTSD Partnership wants to do a DT loop, that is more frequent and only uses two cars so that it won't block traffic along C street. Do you know how many people would use the DT loop if they new it would run every 3-5 minutes and it wouldn't stop at traffic signals (they simply coordinate the lights with the trolley)? I know we would use it for every inner DT trip! We got a Vespa because the trolley is so unreliable, and most times, if you miss it, you have to wait a half-hour for the next one.

SD needs to rezone the inner city for more density (Bankers Hill, University Heights, Golden Hill, North Park, etc..) and then begin planning a subway system similar to Washington DC.

GO BOLTS!
GO JAGS!
Here's to a home AFC Championship!

Relative to the size and what we have, I think the Trolley is great for the San Diego region and downtown. Obviously others do too as it's riden a lot; fourth in the country and comparable to San Francisco and Los Angeles in terms of riders! Wow!

I don't think a train that went in a tiny circle in a loop makes sense at all. Who'd ride it? Where would people get on? Or off? Sounds like a big hassle with no benefit.

Either way, it looks like the DTSD Partnership no longer is behind that idea:
#1 This one is the proposal, dated March 2007.
#2 Is a Dec 2007 endorsement of 3 downtown projects, none include the loop.

bmfarley Jan 8, 2008 4:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mello (Post 3266623)
Is that mileage for the San Diego system including the Sprinter? Because that will add about 17 miles of track!! Btw, is that open yet. I'm actually back in SD (San Marcos) so I will go check it out if it is open..... Yep New York didn't quite work out as I had thought so I'm back LOL!!! :haha:

It's going to open up sometime in February and it'll be run by the transit system in north county, NCTD. I believe I heard that they anticipate 15,000 to 17,000 daily riders after a transitionary period. I don't know how long such a period would be.

But, maybe some will be trying to connect to the Coaster in Oceanside and will get commuters off the highway for trips to dontown San Diego. Crazy commute, but some people are doing it.

IconRPCV Jan 8, 2008 4:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDCAL (Post 3263684)
that does sound good - or even on the east side of Balboa Park.

The trolley already goes as far north as Smart Corner, which CCDC dubs part of it's "Park to Bay link", the only problem is the attractions at the park are much further north. Nobody is going to ride the trolley to Smark Corner then walk up to Balboa Park, it's not a very padestrian friendly stretch.

An underground line that goes up Park with a stop at the zoo and then a stop at Park and University would be great. It would link one of our most famous destinations (zoo) as well as the other attractions at Balboa Park, then provide a stop right at the Hillcrest/North Park border. Since University Ave is pretty pedestrian oriented, passengers could depart the trolley and walk to areas in Hillcrest to the West and NP to the East. Just two trolley stops and it would really link up some important areas of the city

ah, if only SANDAG, the politicians, CCDC and other decision makers read this blog to see what the citizens actually think! :irked:

There is no need to spend the gazillions of dollars it would take to put the uptown line underground.

Have the new line travel north from the smart corner up the median of the 163. Cool stairs could then connect stops at the Prado, a zoo stop, and University Avenue. The line could then go down with a stop at hotel circle then on to the transit center at the fashion valley mall.

I was at the game Sunday and it was awesome. It was great to see few if any Titans' fans.

GO CHARGERS!

keg92101 Jan 8, 2008 4:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmfarley (Post 3266986)
Relative to the size and what we have, I think the Trolley is great for the San Diego region and downtown. Obviously others do too as it's riden a lot; fourth in the country and comparable to San Francisco and Los Angeles in terms of riders! Wow!

I don't think a train that went in a tiny circle in a loop makes sense at all. Who'd ride it? Where would people get on? Or off? Sounds like a big hassle with no benefit.

Either way, it looks like the DTSD Partnership no longer is behind that idea:
#1 This one is the proposal, dated March 2007.
#2 Is a Dec 2007 endorsement of 3 downtown projects, none include the loop.

The loop would service all riders. The Blue would simply terminate at either 1 America Plaza or Santa Fe (why there are two stops one block from each other escapes me) and the Orange would terminate at the Imperial transfer. Read the proposal. The loop would consist of 2 cars, thus eliminating the way the current system blocks traffic along C street, and this loop would be synchronized with traffic signals, increasing the efficiency of the system.

bmfarley Jan 8, 2008 5:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IconRPCV (Post 3267012)
There is no need to spend the gazillions of dollars it would take to put the uptown line underground.

Have the new line travel north from the smart corner up the median of the 163. Cool stairs could then connect stops at the Prado, a zoo stop, and University Avenue. The line could then go down with a stop at hotel circle then on to the transit center at the fashion valley mall.

I was at the game Sunday and it was awesome. It was great to see few if any Titans' fans.

GO CHARGERS!

An extension to serve the zoo and park does not seem practical. If the extension is on the way to something else, and the zoo is there on the way... certainly. But with a purpose to serve the park/zoo... I just don't see sufficient demand at times when it counts; morning and evening commute times.. all day demand. Heck, the zoo does not even open 'till 9:30am and closes at 4:30pm.

bmfarley Jan 8, 2008 5:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keg92101 (Post 3267037)
The loop would service all riders. The Blue would simply terminate at either 1 America Plaza or Santa Fe (why there are two stops one block from each other escapes me) and the Orange would terminate at the Imperial transfer. Read the proposal. The loop would consist of 2 cars, thus eliminating the way the current system blocks traffic along C street, and this loop would be synchronized with traffic signals, increasing the efficiency of the system.

The loop idea was in the news awhile back. I think you'd be suprised by how many people are on those trains coming into downtown. There is a reason the trolley is the 4th most ridden system in the country and trains are long; they're filled with people heading to and fro with points downtown for work and shopping. Go to the Imperial Station and watch trains come in between 7am and 8am to get an idea. Making thousands of riders get off of one train and wait for a 2nd is not a good service. And, that loop idea actually runs less service than now through downtown; count the trains and their lengths.

keg92101 Jan 8, 2008 9:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmfarley (Post 3267203)
The loop idea was in the news awhile back. I think you'd be suprised by how many people are on those trains coming into downtown. There is a reason the trolley is the 4th most ridden system in the country and trains are long; they're filled with people heading to and fro with points downtown for work and shopping. Go to the Imperial Station and watch trains come in between 7am and 8am to get an idea. Making thousands of riders get off of one train and wait for a 2nd is not a good service. And, that loop idea actually runs less service than now through downtown; count the trains and their lengths.

Go to DC and transfer at Metro Center or L' Enfant Plaza. Hundreds of thousands of people transfer daily at these stations. I think San Diego could handle the transfer to a downtown loop.

sandiego_urban Jan 9, 2008 7:44 AM

New renderings of Lane Field from Lankford & Associates. The towers aren't bad, but they do lack the "Wow" factor. I hate the bases and that they are twins, despite the different heights. Let's hope they're still tweaking the design -



Proposed IM Pei tower is very visible
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...eld_image0.jpg


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...eld_image1.jpg

Over 10 years of public and private cooperation has been involved in creating the Lane Field opportunity. LFSDD, LLC has created a destination development in-line with the vision of the San Diego Port Authority and the North Embarcadero Visionary Plan. The iconic InterContinental and Vivara hotel towers, combined with the waterfront retail and boutique restaurants will distinguish Lane Field as the anchor development for downtown San Diego's waterfront growth for years to come.

Lane Field will be downtown San Diego's premier waterfront development. Located on 5.69 acres of irreplaceable downtown waterfront property, the destination development will provide a unique hotel experience combined with boutique restaurants and fashionable retail shops, all located on-site. Lane Field is perfectly positioned in relationship to the Embarcadero waterfront attractions, museums, and Cruise Ship Terminal and is within walking distance of all of downtown San Diego's demand generators: San Diego Convention Center, Gaslamp Quarter, Seaport Village, Horton Plaza, Downtown office buildings, and the Ballpark District. Lane Field's 800-hotel rooms and nearly 100,000 SF of retail will provide the waterfront with a critical mass of attractions to draw new visitors, guests, and shoppers to downtown San Diego.




Why not incorporate the crowns seen in the original version below on one of the towers to make it more "interesting"?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...erialFinal.jpg

CoastersBolts Jan 9, 2008 8:01 AM

I don't know what's worse in that first picture. The two Lane Field buildings or 700 West Broadway (IM Pei Tower).


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