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We vs us Nov 5, 2020 1:25 AM

Just drove up the Guad/Lamar corridor from downtown this evening; it's such an amazingly fertile area, in a way . . . so much potential to redevelop it into a really dense, urban-feeling corridor. It was already trending that way slowly, but with Prop A a reality, the whole thing is just going to be supercharged.

freerover Nov 5, 2020 2:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The ATX (Post 9096379)
That covers the virus. Now back to transportation.

argh. fine. Did my last response get deleted?

freerover Nov 5, 2020 2:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by We vs us (Post 9096485)
Just drove up the Guad/Lamar corridor from downtown this evening; it's such an amazingly fertile area, in a way . . . so much potential to redevelop it into a really dense, urban-feeling corridor. It was already trending that way slowly, but with Prop A a reality, the whole thing is just going to be supercharged.

Yea that's very true. It really bums me out the Gold line got downgraded because Airport Blvd is prime for light rail.

urbancore Nov 5, 2020 3:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freerover (Post 9096548)
Yea that's very true. It really bums me out the Gold line got downgraded because Airport Blvd is prime for light rail.

I've stayed away from chatting in this thread ever since Nova rightly put me in a corner, so forgive these questions. What exactly did we just vote for with prop a&b?

What lines will be built FOR SURE, with or without fed funds?
What lines do we need fed funds?

What did we get exactly?
When will it start?
When is expected completion?

Before you brow beat me, I'm PRO mass transit for HIGH density cities. I'm anti mass transit for low density cities, like Austin. I'm steadfast in my rants for MASSIVE increased density in the urban core, density that can/will support mass transit both with tax $ and ridership. I will never agree this will solve or even put a dent in Austin traffic woes. It won't I've spoken to Kitchen about this...she don't care. Austin's urban core can/should house 10-15k per sq/mile.

Our leaders will forever fight density, and selfishly, I've come around to the NIMBY way of thought. I can't win with logic, so, I've taken advantage of the restrictive codes, and cashed out, 3 times. If you can't beat them, join them.

Now you can brow beat.



I know, I know, I know..... I can look it up, but I honestly respect the members of this forum more than the media.

N90 Nov 5, 2020 3:14 AM

Where is JAM at now?

He needs to see this.

freerover Nov 5, 2020 3:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbancore (Post 9096581)
I've stayed away from chatting in this thread ever since Nova rightly put me in a corner, so forgive these questions. What exactly did we just vote for with prop a&b?

What lines will be built FOR SURE, with or without fed funds?
What lines do we need fed funds?

What did we get exactly?
When will it start?
When is expected completion?

Before you brow beat me, I'm PRO mass transit for HIGH density cities. I'm anti mass transit for low density cities, like Austin. I'm steadfast in my rants for MASSIVE increased density in the urban core, density that can/will support mass transit both with tax $ and ridership. I will never agree this will solve or even put a dent in Austin traffic woes. It won't I've spoken to Kitchen about this...she don't care. Austin's urban core can/should house 10-15k per sq/mile.

Our leaders will forever fight density, and selfishly, I've come around to the NIMBY way of thought. I can't win with logic, so, I've taken advantage of the restrictive codes, and cashed out, 3 times. If you can't beat them, join them.

Now you can brow beat.



I know, I know, I know..... I can look it up, but I honestly respect the members of this forum more than the media.


https://www.capmetro.org/project-connect

Novacek Nov 5, 2020 2:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbancore (Post 9096581)
I've stayed away from chatting in this thread ever since Nova rightly put me in a corner, so forgive these questions. What exactly did we just vote for with prop a&b?

What lines will be built FOR SURE, with or without fed funds?
What lines do we need fed funds?

In the _extremely_ unlikely event we don't get federal funds, I think we still get all the lines. In that case, I think some timelines will get pushed out a bit (green line?). Again, if this were to happen (it won't) I could also see the tunneling downtown get chopped (as it's an optimization of the routes).

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbancore (Post 9096581)
What did we get exactly?
When will it start?
When is expected completion?

It started over a year and a half ago. CapMetro rolled the dice and awarded a contract for Environmental and PE (with local money) last year.
Then it sounds like CM is going to the FTA looking for small starts money for new metrorapid lines ~now. The new circulators is also something that starts this/next year.



Quote:

Originally Posted by urbancore (Post 9096581)
Before you brow beat me, I'm PRO mass transit for HIGH density cities. I'm anti mass transit for low density cities, like Austin. I'm steadfast in my rants for MASSIVE increased density in the urban core, density that can/will support mass transit both with tax $ and ridership. I will never agree this will solve or even put a dent in Austin traffic woes. It won't I've spoken to Kitchen about this...she don't care. Austin's urban core can/should house 10-15k per sq/mile.

Define "low density city". Is Austin's average density (over all >300 square miles) ~3k /mile? Sure. That's also an effectively meaningless measure.

What's the density _where the lines are going_? Remember, due to Texas' (former) annexation policies "Austin" includes what are effectively suburbs in many transit supportive cities.

We vs us Nov 5, 2020 4:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbancore (Post 9096581)
I've stayed away from chatting in this thread ever since Nova rightly put me in a corner, so forgive these questions. What exactly did we just vote for with prop a&b?

What lines will be built FOR SURE, with or without fed funds?
What lines do we need fed funds?

What did we get exactly?
When will it start?
When is expected completion?

Before you brow beat me, I'm PRO mass transit for HIGH density cities. I'm anti mass transit for low density cities, like Austin. I'm steadfast in my rants for MASSIVE increased density in the urban core, density that can/will support mass transit both with tax $ and ridership. I will never agree this will solve or even put a dent in Austin traffic woes. It won't I've spoken to Kitchen about this...she don't care. Austin's urban core can/should house 10-15k per sq/mile.

Our leaders will forever fight density, and selfishly, I've come around to the NIMBY way of thought. I can't win with logic, so, I've taken advantage of the restrictive codes, and cashed out, 3 times. If you can't beat them, join them.

Now you can brow beat.



I know, I know, I know..... I can look it up, but I honestly respect the members of this forum more than the media.

My problem with this formulation is that you're evaluating Austin as it is now. But you as well as anyone know how quickly things are vaulting forward here. We may not look like a classically dense city, but we can and we should, and a transit system like this gets us there.

And of course, trains are the mode that require us to think of the longest term -- the infrastructure is so expensive and complex and permanent. So this has to require you to stretch 20-30 years into the future; not just the next 5, which is what our skyscraperpage time horizon (collectively) tends to be.

I'm just saying -- this isn't a tactical solution. It has to be the most strategic and aspirational.

atxsnail Nov 5, 2020 5:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbancore (Post 9096581)
Before you brow beat me, I'm PRO mass transit for HIGH density cities. I'm anti mass transit for low density cities, like Austin. I'm steadfast in my rants for MASSIVE increased density in the urban core, density that can/will support mass transit both with tax $ and ridership. I will never agree this will solve or even put a dent in Austin traffic woes. It won't I've spoken to Kitchen about this...she don't care. Austin's urban core can/should house 10-15k per sq/mile.

Our leaders will forever fight density, and selfishly, I've come around to the NIMBY way of thought. I can't win with logic, so, I've taken advantage of the restrictive codes, and cashed out, 3 times. If you can't beat them, join them.

Now you can brow beat.

I think the density-before-transit / transit-before-density argument is self-defeating. Both are really hard to get passed in a city like Austin, so we should always give maximum effort on both fronts, regardless of progress on the other. In this case, we have already done the impossible and passed a transformational transit package. The argument is mostly academic now as all we have left to do is get the LDC updated. (Super easy, probably. Right?)

In my mind, this transit package just supercharged all of the existing density opportunities we had under existing code. Density is already happening along the corridors as it is. Most of the empty lots are already spoken for. Project Connect might end up making the math add up for projects that wouldn't have torn down an old underutilized junk building before.

This will also take away one of the most common talking points of the anti-development crowd. Virtually every project that draws neighborhood opposition draws out scores of comments along the lines of "I support new development, but only after we improve infrastructure." Well, we're improving infrastructure.

Sigaven Nov 5, 2020 5:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbancore (Post 9096581)
I've stayed away from chatting in this thread ever since Nova rightly put me in a corner, so forgive these questions. What exactly did we just vote for with prop a&b?

What lines will be built FOR SURE, with or without fed funds?
What lines do we need fed funds?

What did we get exactly?
When will it start?
When is expected completion?

Before you brow beat me, I'm PRO mass transit for HIGH density cities. I'm anti mass transit for low density cities, like Austin. I'm steadfast in my rants for MASSIVE increased density in the urban core, density that can/will support mass transit both with tax $ and ridership. I will never agree this will solve or even put a dent in Austin traffic woes. It won't I've spoken to Kitchen about this...she don't care. Austin's urban core can/should house 10-15k per sq/mile.

Our leaders will forever fight density, and selfishly, I've come around to the NIMBY way of thought. I can't win with logic, so, I've taken advantage of the restrictive codes, and cashed out, 3 times. If you can't beat them, join them.

Now you can brow beat.



I know, I know, I know..... I can look it up, but I honestly respect the members of this forum more than the media.

You can't have functioning density without mass transit. Otherwise you in gridlock 24/7 and parking garage/parking lots everywhere. Build the infrastructure. Density will come.

urbancore Nov 5, 2020 6:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by We vs us (Post 9096918)
My problem with this formulation is that you're evaluating Austin as it is now. But you as well as anyone know how quickly things are vaulting forward here. We may not look like a classically dense city, but we can and we should, and a transit system like this gets us there.

And of course, trains are the mode that require us to think of the longest term -- the infrastructure is so expensive and complex and permanent. So this has to require you to stretch 20-30 years into the future; not just the next 5, which is what our skyscraperpage time horizon (collectively) tends to be.

I'm just saying -- this isn't a tactical solution. It has to be the most strategic and aspirational.

I respectfully disagree that a transit system will get us there. It takes the will of the people and our leaders to get us there. This town fights density every chance it gets. I'd love to be wrong, I want density, but I don't see it happening.

drummer Nov 5, 2020 6:59 PM

I hear what you're saying about fights against density, but it's actively happening in many locations in downtown and elsewhere in the metro. It will only happen more once this plan is realized - the demand is there.

The ATX Nov 5, 2020 7:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drummer (Post 9097180)
I hear what you're saying about fights against density, but it's actively happening in many locations in downtown and elsewhere in the metro. It will only happen more once this plan is realized - the demand is there.

Yup. And giant parking podiums will never go away until more mass transit is in place.

N90 Nov 5, 2020 7:58 PM

Not gonna lie, that shiny silver color with the sleek and lean bod make these some of the most attractive trains I’ve seen for LRT.

https://www.capmetro.org/images/defa...rsn=32882587_2

The underground stations are just as nice. And I love that the platforms are protected with sliding doors and glass barriers. That’s forward thinking.

https://arizent.brightspotcdn.com/f6...tem-tunnel.jpg

Sigaven Nov 5, 2020 8:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N90 (Post 9097304)
The underground stations are just as nice. And I love that the platforms are protected with sliding doors and glass barriers. That’s forward thinking.

Not only good for safety but I think they mentioned this allows the stations to be climate cooled. Definitely a must in this town!

ATX2030 Nov 5, 2020 8:40 PM

Ecstatic that Prop A passed! It can't possibly take 8-10 years before we see trains rolling down the Orange, Blue and Green Lines? Will they open lines by the mile or will they wait for the entire line to be built before opening it?

Novacek Nov 5, 2020 8:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATX2030 (Post 9097385)
Ecstatic that Prop A passed! It can't possibly take 8-10 years before we see trains rolling down the Orange, Blue and Green Lines? Will they open lines by the mile or will they wait for the entire line to be built before opening it?

A lot of the timeline is planning, approval, engineering, etc. Not sequentially building miles (most of which can occur in parallel).

ATX2030 Nov 5, 2020 8:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novacek (Post 9097393)
A lot of the timeline is planning, approval, engineering, etc. Not sequentially building miles (most of which can occur in parallel).

When do you think we'll see trains rolling down the tracks?

Dale Nov 5, 2020 9:28 PM

Delighted for Austin!

electricron Nov 5, 2020 9:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATX2030 (Post 9097407)
When do you think we'll see trains rolling down the tracks?

At least 10 years, around 2030.
Assuming rthe latest new starts examples with Federal funding, and limiting the scope to just light rail, here is what you can expect.
Norfolk Tide started running passengers on light rail trains in August 2011.
A major investment study was completed in 1997 that suggested using an abandoned freight railroad corridor linking Norfolk with Virginia Beach. In 1999, a referendum in Virginia Beach failed 56% to 44%. In 2000, Norfolk decided to move ahead with FTA approval for the EIS process. In 2007, the FTA granted the record of decision which completed the EIS process and released the Federal funding share for construction. There was about a full year delay in testing and construction, so the projected startup in 2010 was delayed to 2011.
Austin is presently at the point of asking the FTA for permission to start the EIS process, about where Norfolk was at in 1998-1999. They would be where Norfolk was in 2000 if they can get FTA approval to start the EIS process next year in 2021. With Norfolk’s timeline as an example, assuming a 2021 FTA approval for starting the EIS, trains will be testing in 2031 and running with passengers aboard in 2032.
That was a successful light rail project with some delays, nothing moves through a major construction project without obstacles to hurdler over. Norfolk does not have tunnels with their light rail line.
Can Austin do better finishing the light rail lines faster? Yes. Can it do worse? Yes. Only time will tell.


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