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-   -   CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87889)

VivaLFuego Nov 17, 2007 5:27 PM

I think having that option to add island concourses is part of the whole point of this major runway re-configuration. Otherwise, why even bother removing any runways?

Marcu Nov 20, 2007 6:00 PM

Good to see this thread coming back to life. Don't want the most economically important and largest construction project going on in Chicago right now to fly under the radar.

Grego43 Nov 20, 2007 7:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VivaLFuego (Post 3173753)
I think having that option to add island concourses is part of the whole point of this major runway re-configuration. Otherwise, why even bother removing any runways?

The major reason for the runway reconfiguration project is delay & congestion reduction...not to mention an increase in capacity. Intersecting crosswind runways do not allow for simultaneous operations and tend to gum up the works. The island concourse option is just gravy.

nomarandlee Nov 20, 2007 7:26 PM

One thing that may have already been discussed in this thread (or heck that I asked and already gotten a reply about and have forgotten) have to do with how will the West Side Terminal and the East Side Current Terminals be connected? Will the Airport Transit System wrap around the airfield and connect the two? Or will a new underground ATS connect (probably at T2) with the West Terminal (T7 I believe)? If it is the former that seems like a good lengthy ride to connect between the two sides of the airport.

Also I think I have read some speculate that the CTA would be extended to the West Terminal T7 though that would seem pretty impractical if not unfeasible to me.

VivaLFuego Nov 20, 2007 9:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grego43 (Post 3179700)
The major reason for the runway reconfiguration project is delay & congestion reduction...not to mention an increase in capacity. Intersecting crosswind runways do not allow for simultaneous operations and tend to gum up the works. The island concourse option is just gravy.

Right, but they could just as easily (and more cheaply) simply build the new parallel runways to the north and south, and not de-commission and REMOVE the crosswind runways....unless they were making room for something.

VivaLFuego Nov 20, 2007 9:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomarandlee (Post 3179736)
One thing that may have already been discussed in this thread (or heck that I asked and already gotten a reply about and have forgotten) have to do with how will the West Side Terminal and the East Side Current Terminals be connected? Will the Airport Transit System wrap around the airfield and connect the two? Or will a new underground ATS connect (probably at T2) with the West Terminal (T7 I believe)? If it is the former that seems like a good lengthy ride to connect between the two sides of the airport.

Also I think I have read some speculate that the CTA would be extended to the West Terminal T7 though that would seem pretty impractical if not unfeasible to me.

I think your first question is still up in the air. There is currently an RFP out for that.

For your second question, it wouldn't be unfeasible, just very expensive, and not sure if its worth it. The CTA tunnels are quite far underground at that point; the plus side being that they could be extended without disrupting plane traffic above. The downside being that of course cheaper cut-and-cover isn't an option; I suspect the tunnel extensions would have to be mined.

ardecila Nov 20, 2007 11:17 PM

A TBM isn't an option?

VivaLFuego Nov 21, 2007 3:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 3180272)
A TBM isn't an option?

I'm not sure about that, but intuitively I don't see how they could stage the construction, particularly without shutting down the operating CTA station. Do they make particularly small TBMs now? I could potentially see mining relatively short extensions of the existing tunnels to a drop point somewhere in the airfield where a TBM could be lowered, but at that point the remaining distance to tunnel might not be worth the effort. The size of those things is a major limitation on getting them into/out of a worksite, even considering that they disassemble. But I'm no construction expert, not by a long shot. I just watch in enjoyment.

Mr Man Nov 21, 2007 5:42 AM

You know, with plans on the book for an extension of the Elgin-O'Hare expressway... and talk of the blue line one day making it to Schaumburg... and a major Airport modernization currently underway...

From Chicago-l.org

Surprise CTA Detour


By Robert McCoppin
DAILY HERALD STAFF WRITER

Date of Publication: October 4, 2002
Source: Daily Herald



A new CTA proposal to extend the Blue Line train to Schaumburg would send trains through O'Hare International Airport and DuPage County, marking a surprise deviation from previously discussed routes.

The new proposal is one of two CTA options, both of which would tunnel under O'Hare to link with a proposed western airport terminal.

http://www.chicago-l.org/articles/im...xtension02.jpg

Some Northwest suburban leaders are concerned because the DuPage route would bypass their municipalities. They also fear that running the extension through a new O'Hare terminal would make it dependent on expanding O'Hare.

In the more familiar of the two proposals, the elevated train route would leave O'Hare and follow the Northwest Tollway in Cook County, as previously discussed by transportation planners.

It would go from O'Hare's existing terminal to a new western terminal, head to Elk Grove Village's industrial park, then stop along the tollway in Des Plaines, Mount Prospect, Arlington Heights, Rolling Meadows and Schaumburg.

The alternate proposal would route the "el" west along the Elgin-O'Hare Expressway, then north up the I-290 extension. It would have stops in Wood Dale/Bensenville, Itasca, Elk Grove and Schaumburg.

Both lines would stop near Woodfield Shopping Center and end at a planned Schaumburg Convention Center. Both trips would take about 15 minutes from O'Hare to Schaumburg and could be extended to the north or west.

Both routes would also offer access to O'Hare from the east and west and provide reverse commuting from Chicago to the suburbs. In addition, most stops would have parking lots and bus transfer stations.

The proposals provide the most concrete plans yet for extending mass transit farther into the Northwest suburbs, a concept that has been discussed for years as a way to shorten travel times on overloaded roads. But both proposals would depart at least in part from the path along the Northwest Tollway that has been considered all along.

The southern route bypasses the tollway almost altogether, and the northern route would miss part of Des Plaines previously covered in discussions. Both plans would stop short of Hoffman Estates and Elgin.

Because of the deviations, the CTA routes are drawing concerned reactions from some suburban mayors.

"The one along the (Northwest) tollway makes more sense from the standpoint of population density and employment density," said Schaumburg Mayor Al Larson, who is leading a study of options for bringing mass transit to the Northwest suburbs. He said it would also do more to serve the towns that are currently in the study.

Whether those towns would be served by the CTA is significant, because they have already ponied up money for the study, and their leaders did not take kindly to now being cut out of the route.

"I was shocked," Arlington Heights Mayor Arlene Mulder said of learning about the southern route. "It was out of context and Johnny-come-lately. … Why should we want to fund a service that would not really benefit Arlington Heights?"

Mulder said the mass transit plan should stick to the Northwest Tollway because that's where the congestion is, and where communities have been paying to study the issue.

Elk Grove Mayor Craig Johnson said he hopes the proposal will not be held hostage to the proposed expansion of O'Hare, which he opposes.

"I don't want to be locked into the (airport) expansion for this to go forward," Johnson said. "All of a sudden, we're seeing things take a different direction."

Asked about the rationale for the new DuPage plan, CTA spokeswoman Robyn Zeigler could not say why the new option was proposed, other than it meets the CTA's goals of increasing ridership and broadening the area the agency serves. The project would also complement CTA plans to run express trains from downtown Chicago to O'Hare, Zeigler said. She added that the CTA considers both proposals separate from O'Hare expansion plans.

Herb Gardner, a member of the Regional Transportation Authority, which is overseeing the study and will help make the ultimate decision, supported the CTA-O'Hare concept as one option.

"We need to look at all the alternatives," he said.

One advantage of going through O'Hare, Gardner said, might be the chance to use airport funds to help pay for the project.

But tunneling under O'Hare could be too expensive, he added, especially in competition with other CTA proposals to build a new line around the west Loop and to extend the Orange Line past Midway Airport.

If the Senate passes legislation to expand O'Hare, Gardner said, it would make the political debate moot.

"Once the legislation passes, they're going to expand O'Hare," he said. "Then either get on the train or watch it go by."

At O'Hare, spokeswoman Monique Bond said only that airport officials are working closely with the CTA and support the plan.

The DuPage Mayors & Managers Conference has proposed express bus service along the Elgin-O'Hare Expressway into O'Hare but would be happy to look at the CTA's proposal, if it fits into the big picture for the region, said transportation program Director Michelle Ryan.

The CTA's plan recently came to light after first surfacing last month at a presentation for suburban officials.

The CTA's plan is just one of several being considered as part of the study. The study focuses on ways to improve transit in the Northwest suburbs, in the cone-shaped corridor between the Union Pacific Northwest Metra line and the Milwaukee District West line.

The RTA, the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority and Northwest suburbs are sharing the $480,000 cost of the study.

Like the CTA, the suburban bus agency Pace is proposing its own options for extending mass transit west from Rosemont.

One option would run an express bus along the shoulders of the Northwest Tollway with limited stops to Barrington Road. Another would provide a special bus rapid transit lane along the tollway with stops to Randall Road.

A third option would build a bus rapid transit route with stops along main arterial roads. Instead of using tollway, it would depend on buses being able to automatically get green lights to improve travel times.

Metra, the commuter rail agency, is also working on a concept, which it is expected to disclose this month.

Suburban officials are also considering a light rail option, like one they toured in St. Louis, which Larson said was fast, smooth and quiet.

Public meetings to discuss each proposal are being planned for late October or early November in the Northwest suburbs.

Construction of any of the options would be at least several years away and would depend on getting hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funding.

Daily Herald staff writer Natasha Korecki contributed to this report.

---


Me thinks it would be cheaper to build tunnel under the airport during the modernization (since an underground ATS will have to be built right next to the proposed alignment) and have it link up with the new Western Terminal building. Then have it run along the extended Elgin-O'Hare expressway to Schaumburg. It would be cheaper to incorporate the blue line while these structures are being built/desinged...

Mr Man Nov 21, 2007 5:52 AM

Two more thoughts... Did anyone notice that the Des Plaines site for the original alignment of the blue line extension is a mobile home park? LoL

I also believe Chicago is going to annex Bensenville one day. It would make sense to have a station in the future Chicago neighborhood of Bensenville rather than an Elk Grove Village industrial park and a Des Plaines mobile home park. I suppose Mt. Prospect would be the only town worthy and would miss out since they have a fear amount of mid-rises in their city center.

the urban politician Nov 21, 2007 5:07 PM

^ Why do you think Chicago will annex Bensenville?

Chicago needs to extend the Red Line south before implementing any Blue Line extensions, IMO

nomarandlee Nov 21, 2007 5:42 PM

Extending the blue line west of O'Hare was and is a horrible idea which I thought was put in the morgue where it belongs. Why would anyone want to take a ride from Arlington Hts. or Schaumburg to downtown in a bumpy stop-start ride which will push travel well past an hour once you get west of O'Hare? 15, 30, 45 minutes on the L to go 2-10 miles is one thing. Why people want to push the L 30 miles out of the loop when that is not its best used purpose I have no idea. That is Metra's job and they can and will do it better.

Marcu Nov 21, 2007 5:49 PM

^ The El is just as capable of going fast as METRA. It just doesn't b/c there are too many slow zones. A stop at Woodfield and a stop at Old Orchard would be great. It would open up a lot more shopping options to Chicagoans without cars and would reassert the Loop as the true center of the vast metropolitan area. (Believe it or not I've heard some suburbanites claim that Schaumburg is more important for the region than the Loop). It would also help alleviate some of the Kennedy traffic. The only disappointment is this probably won't be done anytime soon.

nomarandlee Nov 21, 2007 6:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcu (Post 3181669)
^ The El is just as capable of going fast as METRA. It just doesn't b/c there are too many slow zones. A stop at Woodfield and a stop at Old Orchard would be great. It would open up a lot more shopping options to Chicagoans without cars and would reassert the Loop as the true center of the vast metropolitan area. (Believe it or not I've heard some suburbanites claim that Schaumburg is more important for the region than the Loop). It would also help alleviate some of the Kennedy traffic. The only disappointment is this probably won't be done anytime soon.


I really doubt that. Even when slow zones are lifted the Blue Line would have to beat out express times of 30 minutes times which Metra can provide from Arlington Hts. Unless regular CTA service is planning to use the imaginary airport express tracks then I don't see how it is going to come anywhere close to the 30-45 minutes and similar burbs it takes to get to downtown (and as comfortably). What is the best estimates for a rehabbed line to run at from O'Hare 45 minutes? Not to mention the blue line would make well more then twice as many stops in most cases then Metra.

I agree that a stop at Old Orchard is feasible, but a stop at Woodfield is just not (similarly neither is Northbrook Court which has been proposed as an eventual CTA destination). It is another ten miles out! I get a better idea, increase capacity and running times on Metras to the Schaumburg station and have dependable Pace service that will take the city folk that actually want to go to Woodfield (don't know why they really would but thats ok) all in together with an integrated fair system. At a time when low ridership numbers on certain lines make subsidizing the whole system harder putting in another 10 miles of line in low density suburbia will not improve the situation especially since the vast majority of commuters will just likely continue taking Metra and Woodfield is I speculate nowhere near enough a big enough reverse draw in the other direction to warrant accommodating a steady flow.

Or maybe some burbs should get their heads ouf of the gutter and follow the lead of Evanston, Palatine, and Arlington Hts. and allow for some semblance of real dense retail and entertainment options outside the city with a simple change of zoning and mindset. Why if the region put its mind to it couldn't we have 2 million sq. ft. of similar retail choices spread around some of the over 200 stations instead of feeding the auto-centric machine that Woodfield is and always will be?

As far as the burbanites that would claim Schaumberg is more important let them think so. I also met a girl in Secaucus, NJ right across the Hudson River who couldn't give me directions into Manhattan because she never went into the city. That is just the curse of some too far gone burbanites and thinking that they will be the ones to go and frequantly ride on a twenty stop 1h20min excursion to "the city" for its own sake is betting on the wrong horse.

I could envision a BRT perhaps that would met up with a blue line ended at O'Hare but I don't think I can be convinced that anymore with more capacity or expense would warrant anything much more.

Mr Man Nov 21, 2007 6:32 PM

its politics, obviously. I thought all long-time Chicago residents would know that. A red line extension south should be built before any talk other expansions.

Mr Man Nov 21, 2007 6:36 PM

The only good news is that the Feds will probably pick up the tab for the portion that runs along the Elgin Ohare expressway. The costs would be minimal since it can be tied in with the new construction. Sane thing with an underground ATS.

Mr Man Nov 21, 2007 6:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 3181592)
^ Why do you think Chicago will annex Bensenville?

Chicago needs to extend the Red Line south before implementing any Blue Line extensions, IMO

The town is broke and Chicago is the largest landowner. Chicago only has to subsidize the school districts temporarly. After that property taxes are gonna be insane. People will be begging for the dissolution of the town and join with anoter jurisdiction. Possibly Wood Dale and Chicago would split it.i

Marcu Nov 21, 2007 10:43 PM

^ Why would Chicago want to bail out a financially bankrupt town?

ardecila Nov 22, 2007 9:02 AM

^^ To gain the tax revenue from the residents.

I think the Blue Line shouldn't be extended past the Western Terminal. The O'Hare branch is already the longest line in the CTA - don't make it longer. The CTA's responsibility is to provide transit to the City of Chicago, not its suburbs. The suburbs that do receive service are all contiguous and indistinguishable from the city, like Evanston, Oak Park, and Berwyn.

What I'd like to see is a multimodal facility built adjacent to the Western Terminal that has a Blue Line terminal, an Metra Airport Express train, and some other system that connects to Schaumburg (either STAR Line or the light rail proposal). A regional connector service would also be nice, with hourly limited-stop trains to Rockford, Milwaukee, Joliet, and Merrillville.

Mr Man Nov 22, 2007 3:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcu (Post 3182236)
^ Why would Chicago want to bail out a financially bankrupt town?

Not bailout... More like picking up the pieces after a blow-up.


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