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-   -   PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=160247)

McBane Mar 31, 2017 8:56 PM

A big difference between Camden/Philly and Jersey City/NYC is that NY is so ridiculously expensive - and its expensive neighborhoods cover a huge area that drives people across the river. Conversely, those who are priced out of Center City have a bevvy of cheaper options that have much better connectivity to Center City than Camden. Neighborhoods further afield like Brewerytown and Port Richmond are gentrifying before Camden.

One reason for that of course is that proximity is important but a neighborhood can't rely on that alone. A major driver of gentrification are a neighborhood's dining/drinking scene. It may start off with a small gastropub or coffee shop, but it grows from there. Camden doesn't have that.

But the biggest difference is simply that NYC is in a class of its own. It's really, really hard to compare NYC with any other city in N. America. Heck, just look at SF, which is arguably the second most desirable city in the US - how much of that success has rubbed off on Oakland?

Urbanthusiat Mar 31, 2017 9:19 PM

I'm not sure if you mean to imply that SF's success hasn't spilled over to Oakland... but it very much has, in a big way. I agree with everything else though. I really do hope Camden can gentrify and the water front development is a good start. They have good anchor institutions in Rutgers, the city/county government, Cooper, the Aquarium. i think it will take a decade for the state sponsored company relocations to start having an effect.

allovertown Mar 31, 2017 9:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBane (Post 7758516)
A big difference between Camden/Philly and Jersey City/NYC is that NY is so ridiculously expensive - and its expensive neighborhoods cover a huge area that drives people across the river. Conversely, those who are priced out of Center City have a bevvy of cheaper options that have much better connectivity to Center City than Camden. Neighborhoods further afield like Brewerytown and Port Richmond are gentrifying before Camden.

One reason for that of course is that proximity is important but a neighborhood can't rely on that alone. A major driver of gentrification are a neighborhood's dining/drinking scene. It may start off with a small gastropub or coffee shop, but it grows from there. Camden doesn't have that.

But the biggest difference is simply that NYC is in a class of its own. It's really, really hard to compare NYC with any other city in N. America. Heck, just look at SF, which is arguably the second most desirable city in the US - how much of that success has rubbed off on Oakland?

I'll second that quite a bit of success has rubbed off on Oakland. Was just in the area for 2 weeks last year and a lot had changed since my last visit in 2007. Oakland still has shitty neighborhoods, but so does NYC, overall the success of San Francisco and its effect on Oakland as people are priced out of San Fran has been enormous.

Also I disagree entirely that Brewerytown and Port Richmond are more accessible to Center City. Brewerytown is quite far from downtown, and although not a bad bike ride, it has no subway stops even remotely close to it. Port Richmond is also far away and although it has the MFL, the physical barrier of the Amtrak and all the regional rail lines, not to mention all the dilapidated industrial buildings that surround them, really cut it off from Kensington and Fishtown in a way that is unlikely to change without some type of Race St Connector project that at this point is at best decades away.

Camden is separated from Center City by a river, but it is literally right across the river. A develpment next to one of Camden's Patco stops puts you less than 5 minutes from center city. Hell, even walking across the Ben Franklin is a shorter walk than coming all the way from Port Richmond.

Plus living on the waterfront and looking at views of Philadelphia's skyline is appealing.

Despite it's mediocre transit options, Brewerytown is directly adjacent to some already hot neighborhoods, is adjacent to Fairmount Park and is already gentrifying. Of the three I'd bet on Brewerytown first. But I honestly think the Camden Waterfront becomes a hot place to live before Port Richmond. Why do you think a gastropub can't spring up Camden but will in Port Richmond? Because as of now there is drinking or dining scene in Port Richmond to speak of either.

jjv007 Mar 31, 2017 10:54 PM

Comparing to NYC is good in theory but realistically NYC is a powerhouse of a city. Philly not so much. It's hard to make a comparison with a city that's literally building the entire size of downtown Philly rn. If there is overflow, why would it go to Camden of all places?

Hrytsyu Apr 1, 2017 3:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allovertown (Post 7758576)
I'll second that quite a bit of success has rubbed off on Oakland. Was just in the area for 2 weeks last year and a lot had changed since my last visit in 2007. Oakland still has shitty neighborhoods, but so does NYC, overall the success of San Francisco and its effect on Oakland as people are priced out of San Fran has been enormous.

Also I disagree entirely that Brewerytown and Port Richmond are more accessible to Center City. Brewerytown is quite far from downtown, and although not a bad bike ride, it has no subway stops even remotely close to it. Port Richmond is also far away and although it has the MFL, the physical barrier of the Amtrak and all the regional rail lines, not to mention all the dilapidated industrial buildings that surround them, really cut it off from Kensington and Fishtown in a way that is unlikely to change without some type of Race St Connector project that at this point is at best decades away.

Camden is separated from Center City by a river, but it is literally right across the river. A develpment next to one of Camden's Patco stops puts you less than 5 minutes from center city. Hell, even walking across the Ben Franklin is a shorter walk than coming all the way from Port Richmond.

Plus living on the waterfront and looking at views of Philadelphia's skyline is appealing.

Despite it's mediocre transit options, Brewerytown is directly adjacent to some already hot neighborhoods, is adjacent to Fairmount Park and is already gentrifying. Of the three I'd bet on Brewerytown first. But I honestly think the Camden Waterfront becomes a hot place to live before Port Richmond. Why do you think a gastropub can't spring up Camden but will in Port Richmond? Because as of now there is drinking or dining scene in Port Richmond to speak of either.

My apologies I am unable to answer completely at this time, however, Port Richmond has established population density that Camden, unfortunately, will lack for some time. We are all well aware that amenities follow population density.

allovertown Apr 1, 2017 5:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hrytsyu (Post 7758853)
My apologies I am unable to answer completely at this time, however, Port Richmond has established population density that Camden, unfortunately, will lack for some time. We are all well aware that amenities follow population density.

Port Richmond never cratered like many Philadelphia neighborhoods. It's been a fine, fairly safe neighborhood to live in since what? The 19th Century?

I did not mean to knock Port Richmond. But despite never really going downhill and maintaining good population density, to the best of my knowledge there is still none the less no destination dining or drinking in Port Richmond. It's a functional neighborhood but it's not desirable.

Camden on the other hand is basically a smoldering crater. But it's an entire city we're talking about. Clearly all of Camden isn't going to be desirable before Port Richmond, if ever. But the waterfront is beginning to show real promise and PATCO is a serious asset. If you just look at the waterfront area, I think it is very reasonable to think that part of Camden will become a desirable place where people are willing to pay significant sums to live before the same happens to Port Richmond.

Put it this way, the idea of a hot new bar or restaurant opening in the Camden Waterfront area to cater to people who will work in the new office buildings, live in the condos there, or are in the area for a concert seems like much more realistic short term proposition, than the idea that such an establishment would pop up in Port Richmond to serve the working class families that live there.

Larry King Apr 1, 2017 9:46 AM

Camden is going to do great because thousands of good paying jobs are coming to the town. Places will open to serve the workers lunch, they start staying open for dinner and you have a scene there.

Milksteak Apr 1, 2017 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry King (Post 7758964)
Camden is going to do great because thousands of good paying jobs are coming to the town. Places will open to serve the workers lunch, they start staying open for dinner and you have a scene there.

Ever been in Trenton past 5pm? It's a ghost town.

iamrobk Apr 1, 2017 6:41 PM

I live right on this lot, and I'm excited to see this finally moving forward. It's not the greatest design but I'm happy with it. Curious to see what the retail will be (probably another coffee shop...) and where exactly it'll be (I kinda hope it faces the park, to be honest). That sad, you get a great view of Center City from the north end of that lot, which I'll be sad to lose!

Kfmcshan Apr 1, 2017 9:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allovertown (Post 7758902)
Put it this way, the idea of a hot new bar or restaurant opening in the Camden Waterfront area to cater to people who will work in the new office buildings, live in the condos there, or are in the area for a concert seems like much more realistic short term proposition, than the idea that such an establishment would pop up in Port Richmond to serve the working class families that live there.

It is already beginning to happen in Port Richmond. See below:

First Look: Bait & Switch

Port Richmond Gets a New Coffee Shop in River Wards Cafe

Nova08 Apr 1, 2017 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kfmcshan (Post 7759355)
It is already beginning to happen in Port Richmond. See below:

First Look: Bait & Switch

Port Richmond Gets a New Coffee Shop in River Wards Cafe

And I'll add...
Port Richmond’s quiet food revolution is slowly changing the neighborhood
https://billypenn.com/2016/12/18/por...-neighborhood/

It takes quite a bit of critical mass for things to start rolling. Campbell's Soup, Subaru, and the development proposed around that area will do nothing to keep people around Camden for drinks/dinner like the waterfront development might. People will not drive from Campbell's to a good spot that pops up around the waterfront development, they'll just go home.

mja Apr 2, 2017 3:19 AM

Port Richmond is absolutely going to become a 'hot' neighborhood, and sooner rather than later, and way before anything similar happens in Camden. It's an intact working-to-middle class neighborhood with decent bones and a certain amount of charm.

allovertown Apr 2, 2017 2:12 PM

Wow. I consider myself pretty plugged in on stuff like this, but I'm shocked about Port Richmond. The wave of investment riding up the EL has been unstoppable but I was skeptical about Port Richmond. I was in the neighborhood just a few years ago looking for a possible investment property. It was just so far away from downtown and walking under the train tracks to get toward the more happening neighborhoods was so unpleasant. Just felt very cut off from the rest of Philly.

But i guess the EL can't be stopped. Great to hear some amenities are heading to Port Richmond, I was totally wrong.

Parkway Apr 2, 2017 4:30 PM

The ongoing waterfront development in Camden is bringing 1,400 new jobs, a hotel, and an apartment building. The hope is that when this is combined with the developments by Rutgers/Cooper/Rowan to the southwest it will give Camden some inertia of it's own. If Camden can hit a critical mass of shit to do people will realize that it's half the commute of Port Richmond if you work in CC.

Larry King Apr 2, 2017 4:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parkway (Post 7759845)
The ongoing waterfront development in Camden is bringing 1,400 new jobs, a hotel, and an apartment building. The hope is that when this is combined with the developments by Rutgers/Cooper/Rowan to the southwest it will give Camden some inertia of it's own. If Camden can hit a critical mass of shit to do people will realize that it's half the commute of Port Richmond if you work in CC.

Yep Camden is getting enough jobs that it won't even need Philly to revitalize. Camden will grow bc people will want to be close to work, being close to Philly just a bonus. Political will in NJ is totally behind Camden

3rd&Brown Apr 2, 2017 5:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mja (Post 7759545)
Port Richmond is absolutely going to become a 'hot' neighborhood, and sooner rather than later, and way before anything similar happens in Camden. It's an intact working-to-middle class neighborhood with decent bones and a certain amount of charm.

And not just Port Richmond, but Harrowgate and the areas closer to the EL as well.

And it's already happening. So I'm not sure why these people are debating.

Prices have probably gone up 40% in the past two years. Virtually every house that hits the market is a newly renovated granny house.

summersm343 Apr 2, 2017 5:12 PM

Aramark HQ - 2400 Market - office/retail - 10 floors
Update from Building Philly

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0...8c&oe=5962AD49

https://www.facebook.com/BuildingPhilly/

Larry King Apr 2, 2017 6:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown (Post 7759867)
And not just Port Richmond, but Harrowgate and the areas closer to the EL as well.

And it's already happening. So I'm not sure why these people are debating.

Prices have probably gone up 40% in the past two years. Virtually every house that hits the market is a newly renovated granny house.

I'm going to build some houses near the somerset stop either late this year or early next year, we'll see how it goes. Development along the el is inevitable, just need to the push the dealers out

summersm343 Apr 2, 2017 8:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parkway (Post 7759845)
The ongoing waterfront development in Camden is bringing 1,400 new jobs, a hotel, and an apartment building. The hope is that when this is combined with the developments by Rutgers/Cooper/Rowan to the southwest it will give Camden some inertia of it's own. If Camden can hit a critical mass of shit to do people will realize that it's half the commute of Port Richmond if you work in CC.

100% agree. Anybody who cannot see that Camden is about to pop, is not in the real estate development game. Good developers are always looking for the next best spot.

The places gentrifying now are Fishtown, East Kensington, "Olde Richmond", "Olde Kensington", Loft District/Callowhill, Mantua, Walnut Hill, Cedar Park, Garden Court, West Powelton, Brewerytown, Templetown, Francisville, Spring Arts, Point Breeze and the Dickinson Narrows.

The places about to pop (and in some respects already have) are: Port Richmond, Norris Square, Sharswood, West Powelton, "The area between Temple Main and Temple Health Sciences Campus", Grays Ferry, Germantown, Downtown/Waterfront of Wilmington and Camden.

I am in full belief too, that in the next year or two we will see a turn around of Marcus Hook, Chester, and all areas surrounding it as the Marcellus Shale pipeline brings thousands of jobs to the area.

Jawnadelphia Apr 2, 2017 9:37 PM

Aramark's new HQ - 2400 Marketplace. The whales are crying...as the mural is almost a goner.

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3944/3...4d589a21_b.jpg

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3794/3...d036e36b_b.jpg

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3741/3...32451f8c_b.jpg

Finished products getting close on Walnut St. in Rittenhouse for the Van Pelt Mews and Walnut St. Estates projects:

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3840/3...ec8e3bae_b.jpg

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3835/3...afc34a7e_b.jpg

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3852/3...089fd714_b.jpg

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2896/3...715cd972_b.jpg

Bart's Rittenhouse Sq. Mansion - I swear this has been under construction for 3 yrs now...

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2873/3...b22c33f3_b.jpg

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2929/3...7db70e76_b.jpg

LOVE Park renovation - no one was onsite on Saturday.

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2849/3...f5909ef0_b.jpg

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2889/3...195c6b7a_b.jpg

Museum Tower II - Fairmount; those new houses are so tiny compared to the rest of the hood'... I'm sure nice and all; doesn't appear anyone has moved in yet...

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2870/3...4fbf7178_b.jpg

I really like the Hanover North Broad project, very handsome. I wouldn't mind if a few more vacant lots in this area end up looking like these buildings.

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2815/3...1ac161a7_b.jpg

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2947/3...ff681fa7_b.jpg

And, I think there's a 4-5 story apt building going in here next to The Granery, correct?

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2806/3...6b195291_b.jpg


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