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thenoflyzone Apr 13, 2021 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LO 044 (Post 9246728)
These loans will be "forgiven" in time.

I don't think they will.

Quote:

Of course there had to be a Quebec cherry on top with the "commitment" to take the 220 jets.
Taking the 40 Boeing Max's was also part of the deal. So no favoritism here. Simply a requirement that AC take all the narrowbodies it planned on taking.

Quote:

And we're something like number 62 in amount of vaccinations received.
huh? We are #15 worldwide based on the number of unique individuals who have received at least 1 dose of vaccine. In terms of % of population vaccinated (which favors smaller countries like Seychelles, San Marino, Bermuda, Vatican), we are still around # 32. So I don't know where you are getting your numbers from.

casper Apr 13, 2021 1:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LO 044 (Post 9246728)
This is the biggest waste of money spent by the Liberal government to date and that's saying a lot. These loans will be "forgiven" in time. They should have just given the money to laid off employees to get retrained at other jobs. Of course there had to be a Quebec cherry on top with the "commitment" to take the 220 jets.

YYZ-LHR will make money regardless if it's BA or AC. European bail out money has nothing to do with these routes. BA will not lower their pricing to predatory pricing levels to eliminate AC competition. Stop comparing airlines bailout money to AC's situation. The government shouldn't be able to pick and choose who to support otherwise why didn't they offer Greyhound tons of money to keep routes going?

But let's face it it's easy to give out money you don't have and that's what this federal government has done relative to many of the industrialized nations in the world. And we're something like number 62 in amount of vaccinations received. Expect an election soon. I mean who doesn't love the uncle that gives you money for doing nothing right?

It is a low interest loan. It will be paid back. The interest rate is a better deal than other loans AC currently has so it will be used to the largest extent it can be.

The issue is not Healthrow to Toronto. The issue is who is going to connect Saskatoon or Sudbury or Prince George to the rest of the world. AC has a large and complex supply chain of Canadian companies. It plays an important role in moving goods and providing air service that is essential for a large number of services we export. Loans to get them through this are only reasonable.

I don't know if WestJet will also take advantage of such a package. It is likely they have been offered the same thing.

Coldrsx Apr 13, 2021 1:55 PM

Regardless of whether they will make a call on it or not, it does provide the airline a vast amount of liquidity and latitude going forward and that's important for us all.

Dominion301 Apr 13, 2021 2:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9246908)
It is a low interest loan. It will be paid back. The interest rate is a better deal than other loans AC currently has so it will be used to the largest extent it can be.

The issue is not Healthrow to Toronto. The issue is who is going to connect Saskatoon or Sudbury or Prince George to the rest of the world. AC has a large and complex supply chain of Canadian companies. It plays an important role in moving goods and providing air service that is essential for a large number of services we export. Loans to get them through this are only reasonable.

I don't know if WestJet will also take advantage of such a package. It is likely they have been offered the same thing.

Exactly...and the mayor of North Bay thinks AC will now be back at YYB soon: https://www.saultstar.com/news/regio...g-to-north-bay

I would guess this means the DH3 retirement won't be happening?

Dominion301 Apr 13, 2021 2:15 PM

Flair have just announced the addition of summer seasonal YOW-YLW twice weekly: https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/flair-airl...2ZHWVXVTtgx23I

In the span of the past 2 months, YOW has gone from having service to only 1 B.C. airport (YVR) to now 4 B.C. airports (YVR, YYJ, YXX and now YLW). Flair are definitely shaking things up domestically. AC & WS adding YOW-YYJ is probably a defensive move after seeing F8 add YKF-YYJ.

hollywoodcory Apr 13, 2021 2:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9245846)
Hopefully that means YOW-FRA on LH will also happen in summer 2022. It’s too soon to tell as YOW-FRA’s season normally starts in mid-May and LH’s schedule only looks 360 days ahead.

Just noticed the flight numbers for the YYC service are the same as the planned YOW flights. Perhaps AC/LH assume their is better demand at YYC?

LO 044 Apr 13, 2021 2:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9246908)
It is a low interest loan. It will be paid back. The interest rate is a better deal than other loans AC currently has so it will be used to the largest extent it can be.

The issue is not Healthrow to Toronto. The issue is who is going to connect Saskatoon or Sudbury or Prince George to the rest of the world. AC has a large and complex supply chain of Canadian companies. It plays an important role in moving goods and providing air service that is essential for a large number of services we export. Loans to get them through this are only reasonable.

I don't know if WestJet will also take advantage of such a package. It is likely they have been offered the same thing.

I feel like the question is, is every business in Canada going to get the same low interest loan? If you add up every employee in the restaurant business across the country, the amount is vastly higher than the staff at AC. When a government picks and chooses in a capitalist system, issues arise.

No airline is going to serve Sudbury or Kamloops or Penticton if the passengers are not there and they shouldn't. So AC will fly empty planes to Penticton? WS announced routes to Penticton without any loans so why do you need a loan to start the route?

As to the cargo aspect again same thing. AC is flying cargo routes already because the demand is there. Other cargo carriers are stepping in accordingly.

As for the isolated communities in the north and maybe the Maritimes i get it. Those may have been money losers for any airline to begin with but were kept alive because they also provided passenger and cargo connections to AC's larger network which made it somewhat worthwhile.

Dominion301 Apr 13, 2021 3:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9247003)
Just noticed the flight numbers for the YYC service are the same as the planned YOW flights. Perhaps AC/LH assume their is better demand at YYC?

It could also mean YOW-FRA will swap back to AC on a 788 in 2022. Demand out of YYC is obviously higher given it's a secondary hub for AC vs YOW being an O&D driven focus city. Only 5% of YOW's traffic is connecting - by far the lowest of the big 8 airports. YYC's 30-40% connecting.

nname Apr 13, 2021 7:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9247003)
Just noticed the flight numbers for the YYC service are the same as the planned YOW flights. Perhaps AC/LH assume their is better demand at YYC?

I guess many airline's flight numbers are all over the places now.

For AC, YVR-YHZ took one of the number from YYC-YOW... YYZ-KEF now took the number from YUL-TLS...

thenoflyzone Apr 13, 2021 8:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LO 044 (Post 9247015)
I feel like the question is, is every business in Canada going to get the same low interest loan? If you add up every employee in the restaurant business across the country, the amount is vastly higher than the staff at AC. When a government picks and chooses in a capitalist system, issues arise.

Firstly, are you really comparing highly skilled jobs in the aviation sector like pilots, aircraft mechanic/technicians, flight dispatchers, flight attendants, etc to the minimum wage jobs that are often associated with the restaurant sector?

Second, you have it the other way around. The liberals "helped" the restaurant business owners before they helped AC.

Through CEBA, any small business or NFP can since long ago, apply for an interest free loan of up to $60,000, of which $20,000 is forgivable if you meet the payback timeline for the rest of the money. I'd say that's a better deal than the low interest loan AC got. Also, the CEBA money doesn't come with the kind of restrictions that AC will need to comply with.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-...onse-plan.html

Probably a lot of small businesses took that money and then declared banckrupcy soon after, not having to pay any of it back.

Bottom line, and to answer your question, yes, every business in Canada (small, medium or lage) that wants it has access to the various government loans that have been provided since the onset of the pandemic. In the case of the airline/aviation industry, something else had to be done on top of all the rest, due to the impact on the sector and it's importance.

casper Apr 13, 2021 9:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LO 044 (Post 9247015)
I feel like the question is, is every business in Canada going to get the same low interest loan? If you add up every employee in the restaurant business across the country, the amount is vastly higher than the staff at AC. When a government picks and chooses in a capitalist system, issues arise.

No airline is going to serve Sudbury or Kamloops or Penticton if the passengers are not there and they shouldn't. So AC will fly empty planes to Penticton? WS announced routes to Penticton without any loans so why do you need a loan to start the route?

As to the cargo aspect again same thing. AC is flying cargo routes already because the demand is there. Other cargo carriers are stepping in accordingly.

As for the isolated communities in the north and maybe the Maritimes i get it. Those may have been money losers for any airline to begin with but were kept alive because they also provided passenger and cargo connections to AC's larger network which made it somewhat worthwhile.

The government has created no shortage of programs for Canadian business. One of the big ones for the tourism and hospitality industry is one offered through the chartered bank and backed by BDC. That is at 4%. Western Diversification (and the other regional development agencies) also have a large pot to act as a backstop for business that don't meet any of the other programs.

This $60k loan with $20k forgivable is a token if you have a business of any size. But it also been extended and used by everyone. For an organization the size of AC or WS it is irrelevant.

The problem with isolated communities (any many of these are significant sized cities) is not air service into a larger city the problem is integrated air server that has interline/codeshare connections onto a global network. To support business and economic development you want to be able to have people come and go with little difficulty.

casper Apr 13, 2021 9:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LO 044 (Post 9247015)
I feel like the question is, is every business in Canada going to get the same low interest loan? If you add up every employee in the restaurant business across the country, the amount is vastly higher than the staff at AC. When a government picks and chooses in a capitalist system, issues arise.

No airline is going to serve Sudbury or Kamloops or Penticton if the passengers are not there and they shouldn't. So AC will fly empty planes to Penticton? WS announced routes to Penticton without any loans so why do you need a loan to start the route?

As to the cargo aspect again same thing. AC is flying cargo routes already because the demand is there. Other cargo carriers are stepping in accordingly.

As for the isolated communities in the north and maybe the Maritimes i get it. Those may have been money losers for any airline to begin with but were kept alive because they also provided passenger and cargo connections to AC's larger network which made it somewhat worthwhile.

The government has created no shortage of programs for Canadian business. One of the big ones for the tourism and hospitality industry is one offered through the chartered bank and backed by BDC. That is at 4%. Western Diversification (and the other regional development agencies) also have a large pot to act as a backstop for business that don't meet any of the other programs.

This $60k loan with $20k forgivable is a token if you have a business of any size. But it also been extended and used by everyone. For an organization the size of AC or WS it is irrelevant.

The problem with isolated communities (any many of these are significant sized cities) is not air service into a larger city the problem is integrated air server that has interline/codeshare connections onto a global network. To support business and economic development you want to be able to have people come and go with little difficulty. That means accessing the city with a single ticket from most parts of the world.

LO 044 Apr 13, 2021 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9247740)
The problem with isolated communities (any many of these are significant sized cities) is not air service into a larger city the problem is integrated air server that has interline/codeshare connections onto a global network. To support business and economic development you want to be able to have people come and go with little difficulty. That means accessing the city with a single ticket from most parts of the world.

So again, WS will start routes to Kamloops and Penticton. Why is the government forcing AC to start routes to Kamloops and Penticton with taxpayer money? You already have an airline that is providing service based on demand.

Once the vaccinations are completed, demand will return as will the routes as will open hotels, restaurants and stores and spending. This will take care of itself. People use Zoom, Teams, etc. to conduct business. Business travel will come back but never to the extent that it was. I work for a global company that is definitely downsizing office space. It saves them money, it saves us on fuel and parking and it saves the environment. Not having an Amsterdam-Edmonton-Kamloops route isn't going to decimate the economy of Kamloops.

And as to the vaccinations, when the government (and many other governments i'm sure) realized that the vaccines were not coming fast enough they then continued to extend the time between doses. 20% of Canadians have had one dose of a vaccine (rank 20 in the world) but only 2.2% of Canadians have been fully vaccinated (rank 47 in the world).

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...s-tracker.html

Denscity Apr 13, 2021 10:10 PM

I wonder if YCG Castlegar is gonna come back soon for AC. We've traditionally had more flights than Penticton.

Nick Apr 13, 2021 10:45 PM

Has a Q400 been to YCG, even as a test? It may be a Westjet Link using Pasco SF34s that you'll see next.

Denscity Apr 13, 2021 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick (Post 9247844)
Has a Q400 been to YCG, even as a test? It may be a Westjet Link using Pasco SF34s that you'll see next.

Not that I know of. But that is the plane that has the technology to defeat our foggy mountain based cancellations. ILS I think its called? The city is willing to pay it's share for this technology at YCG.
Used to be 3 daily DH3s to Vancouver and daily DH3s or DH1s to Calgary.
Right now we just have 3 or 4 weekly Central Mountain Air to Vancouver.
The addition of Westjet Link would be welcomed.

thenoflyzone Apr 14, 2021 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denscity (Post 9247860)
ILS I think its called?

YCG can't support a straight in ILS, due to terrain. It already has a near 30 degree offset localizer (LOC) approach (a LOC is one of the components of an ILS), but can't support the glide slope (GP) - which is the vertical component of an ILS - due to terrain.

And btw, any commercial airliner, be it turboprop or jet, can fly an ILS, if the airport is so equipped, and the procedure isn't restricted.

What YCG needs is an RNP AR approach (approach with curved segments). Now that is an approach not every aircraft can do, but a properly equipped Q400 could.

casper Apr 14, 2021 1:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LO 044 (Post 9247787)
So again, WS will start routes to Kamloops and Penticton. Why is the government forcing AC to start routes to Kamloops and Penticton with taxpayer money? You already have an airline that is providing service based on demand.

Once the vaccinations are completed, demand will return as will the routes as will open hotels, restaurants and stores and spending. This will take care of itself. People use Zoom, Teams, etc. to conduct business. Business travel will come back but never to the extent that it was. I work for a global company that is definitely downsizing office space. It saves them money, it saves us on fuel and parking and it saves the environment. Not having an Amsterdam-Edmonton-Kamloops route isn't going to decimate the economy of Kamloops.

And as to the vaccinations, when the government (and many other governments i'm sure) realized that the vaccines were not coming fast enough they then continued to extend the time between doses. 20% of Canadians have had one dose of a vaccine (rank 20 in the world) but only 2.2% of Canadians have been fully vaccinated (rank 47 in the world).

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...s-tracker.html

As companies move to people working remotely I think we are going to see more travel in places. That should offset the fact we are going to have less travel in other areas.

In the 2000-2010 time frame living in Saskatoon the only options were Air Canada and Northwest. After Canadian shutdown there were limited options. WestJet was useless at the time, they have limited onward connections. The world has changed, WestJet has interline/codeshare agreements that can get you to most places in the world. It may well be fine these days as a business airline.

thenoflyzone Apr 14, 2021 2:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc (Post 9246755)
Possibly because it's an airport for a town of 8000 people? Feel lucky your runway is even paved, Banff at 9000 people has a grass landing strip :haha:

Also, because of the terrain negating straight-on approaches, the Castelgar airport is only certified for daytime ops. Very little need for an expensive lighting system. Though, of course it wouldn't hurt.

If the airport gets an RNP AR approach and runway lights, the restriction for night time flights could be lifted for properly equipped aircraft.

Denscity Apr 14, 2021 3:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9248005)
YCG can't support a straight in ILS, due to terrain. It already has a near 30 degree offset localizer (LOC) approach (a LOC is one of the components of an ILS), but can't support the glide slope (GP) - which is the vertical component of an ILS - due to terrain.

And btw, any commercial airliner, be it turboprop or jet, can fly an ILS, if the airport is so equipped, and the procedure isn't restricted.

What YCG needs is an RNP AR approach (approach with curved segments). Now that is an approach not every aircraft can do, but a properly equipped Q400 could.

Ya I think I meant RNP. That's why I was told the q could do it but not every plane can.


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