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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

EpicPonyTime Dec 4, 2018 5:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjones2451 (Post 8397574)
This is where I question this, in many CFL markets you can get in the door for $30-35, which is very reasonable, the BC Lions introduced a $20 GA ticket this year too
Then most of the same people slam the CFL for not having better players or paying them more.
Especially in the age of paying $6 for a Starbucks Latte or $8-10 for a drink at a bar or club

My familiarity with other teams in the league is limited, but I know for the Riders a $30 ticket gets you a spot in the casual end-zone area, with an actual seat starting at $50. Obviously that excludes the cost of drinking or having a bite to eat at the game, which could come close to doubling the price of the $30 ticket. At that point I'd say the ticket prices are getting closer to "I might go to one or two games a year" territory. Much rather just use the money on a 24-pack.

Of course, like you point out, there's no easy answer to it. Can't have a league if people pay peanuts to come watch the game.

Berklon Dec 4, 2018 6:41 PM

$30 is a good price for tickets to a sporting event - at least compared to what I keep seeing.

However, to me - $30 is just too much for a single regular season game of any sport.
Less hard to take for football as the game means more (unless the team is out of the playoffs) since there aren't as many games played... but overpriced for hockey and basketball as there are 82 games. For baseball it's ludicrous. Just my opinion of course - maybe I'm a cheap bastard.

BTW, just noticed elly got suspended. I looked at his last few posts and didn't see him offending anyone - which is rare. What happened?

Acajack Dec 4, 2018 6:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon (Post 8398827)

BTW, just noticed elly got suspended. I looked at his last few posts and didn't see him offending anyone - which is rare. What happened?

It's the SSP Purge!

Whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do... when they come fo' you? :P

JHikka Dec 5, 2018 3:44 PM

Forbes has released their updated NHL Team valuations:
https://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/list/
Revenue/income from 2017-2018, all figures USD.

(Rank) Team $Value (Change)

(2) Toronto $1.45B (+4%) / $232M revenue / $94M operating income
(3) Montreal $1.3B (+4%) / $239M revenue / $102M operating income
(9) Vancouver $735M (+1%) / $168M revenue / $37M operating income
(13) Edmonton $540M (+4%) / $145M revenue /$21M operating income
(20) Calgary $450M (+5%) / $132M revenue / $11M operating income
(23) Ottawa $435M (+4%) / $124M revenue / $1.6M operating income
(27) Winnipeg $415M (+11%) / $135M revenue / $11M operating income

EpicPonyTime Dec 6, 2018 1:44 AM

So what was the argument behind the Flames needing a new arena, again? They weren't making money? They're doing as well as half the teams in the league.


Also, Panthers lost $21 million last year. Ooph.

JHikka Dec 9, 2018 8:24 PM

https://mmajunkie.com/2018/12/ufc-23...ate-in-toronto

Saturday’s UFC 230 event drew an announced attendance of 19,039 for a live gate of $2,481,552 [at Scotiabank Arena in Toronto].

Average entry of $130, for those curious.

TSN also extended their broadcast agreement with the UFC prior to the event.

JHikka Dec 12, 2018 3:56 PM

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/bursting...gues-1.4213030

'Bursting point': Booming Halifax courted by multiple sports leagues

It's a heady time for sports fans hankering for more athletic entertainment in Atlantic Canada's biggest city -- a place awash with cranes with a thriving construction sector, healthy employment gains, strong population growth and a booming housing market.

But the sports buzz is dampened by doubts about whether a city of 400,000 people -- even one that functions as a regional capital -- can sustain so many teams.

"There's only so much disposable income to go around," says Concordia University sports economist Moshe Lander.

"The more teams that you have with overlapping seasons, the more likely they will start cannibalizing each other."

It's a concern shared by even the most enthusiastic of sport boosters.

"As a sports fan, I hope it all works," says Bruce Rainnie, president and CEO of the Nova Scotia Sport Hall of Fame.

"But with all the options available for your sport-entertainment dollar, you just have to wonder if there's a bursting point."

The teams won't just be competing for fans and their wallets, but for corporate sponsorship as well.

...

The city's sports roster already includes the Mooseheads and the Halifax Hurricanes basketball team, and will soon add professional soccer, lacrosse and potentially CFL football -- not to mention several prominent university teams.

The HFX Wanderers Football Club is expected to compete in the Canadian Premier League in its inaugural 2019 season, and a new National Lacrosse League franchise -- a relocation of New York State's Rochester Knighthawks -- will play at the Scotiabank Centre under a new team name, potentially the Halifax Privateers, starting next December.

Maritime Football -- the group behind the newly named Atlantic Schooners -- is trying to land a Canadian Football League franchise for Halifax, a proposal that hinges on the construction of a new 24,000-seat stadium.

...

"You kind of scratch your head and wonder if there will be room for all of them," says Mark Raymond, associate academic dean at the Sobey School of Business at Saint Mary's University in Halifax.

"When we think of the Maritimes in general or Nova Scotia, there's only really a few major corporations."

He says companies will be interested in reaching new markets through sports sponsorships, as well as "staying top of mind" among existing customers.

"There's also a sense of corporate responsibility, of giving back to the community," Raymond says.

Still, the finite number of companies -- from telecoms and banks to car dealerships and grocery chains -- willing to sponsor sports in the city means teams could face a battle for sponsors.

"The big concern is on the corporate side," says Don Mills, chairman and CEO of Corporate Research Associates and a key player behind efforts to bring a new National Basketball League of Canada team -- the Halifax Hurricanes -- to the city after the Halifax Rainmen folded in 2015.

"There are only so many dollars to go around."

Unlike some teams, however, he says a CFL team would attract a larger pool of corporate sponsors.

"I'm anticipating there will be large national advertisers that will want to be part of a CFL team that would not be part of the Hurricanes, for example," he says.

...

While the Mooseheads hockey team has never had "anything but a honeymoon period," the Hurricanes are struggling to get more than 2,000 fans to attend games, says Rainnie.

"So far the only thing that has ever really worked here -- off the charts worked -- is the Halifax Mooseheads."

But Rainnie says a soccer team will likely thrive in Halifax -- a city with a growing immigrant population that tends to rally behind soccer -- and that lacrosse is quickly gaining in popularity among youth.

"I have tremendous optimism about soccer working," Rainnie says, adding that "lacrosse is a deep-rooted Canadian sport that has a physicality and a watchability to it."

He adds that a team's success is increasingly dependent on community engagement, and the willingness of players to "contribute to kids at the grassroots level of sports."

Football, on the other hand, is "truly a time-will-tell sort of thing," Rainnie says.

"At its best the CFL is a very exciting product," he says. "But I don't think the league right now is at its best."

Rainnie says in order to survive, the football team will have to attract fans from across the region -- Moncton, Charlottetown, Truro and beyond -- who are willing to drive to Halifax to watch the games."

someone123 Dec 12, 2018 7:38 PM

I don't know how the sports teams will work out but Halifax is in an interesting transition state right now. In some ways it is like a small city and in some ways it's like a medium-sized city in a Canadian context.

This might be one of those cases where there is a "tipping point". The city might become more of a household name in Canada in 10 or 20 years, a place lots of people think about moving to or visiting. That would be a good thing for the country as a whole because there aren't a lot of options like that to choose from.

The risk to all this is that the city is not very large and the character that makes it interesting could easily be swamped by new development. A lot of decision makers in the city traditionally had a very laissez-faire attitude about all this stuff because they felt like nothing would change very quickly and there would be lots of advance notice as any problems cropped up. Most of Canada suffers from this complacency to some degree, in my experience.

le calmar Dec 12, 2018 8:29 PM

I could be wrong, but I am not sure about a Lacrosse team in Halifax. Attendance is only solid for a few teams while the rest is not doing so well. I suspect teams like Buffalo are doing well now because the other local pro teams suck and have been doing so for a long time.

EpicPonyTime Dec 12, 2018 9:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le calmar (Post 8406494)
I could be wrong, but I am not sure about a Lacrosse team in Halifax. Attendance is only solid for a few teams while the rest is not doing so well. I suspect teams like Buffalo are doing well now because the other local pro teams suck and have been doing so for a long time.

Buffalo has had good support for the Bandits for quite some time, actually. Same can be said about the Mammoth. I think in both cases lacrosse fills the "affordable pro sports" niche which obviously the major leagues do not.

One thing that bodes well for Halifax is that they will be inheriting a good team from Rochester. I don't know if a brand new team would have success drawing fans, but a solid team from the start will help them build buzz right out of the gate. Moreso than anything, I feel that was the biggest factor in the Rush's success. I don't know anyone who was interested in lacrosse before they moved to Saskatoon and I know plenty of people thought it would fail. The success of the team brought in fans that loved the atmosphere and it helped to build buzz. Now we have arguably the best supported team in the league.

It's almost cliche to look at Halifax pro sports and say "they'll be the Saskatchewan of the Maritimes" but in this case it could be true.

Acajack Dec 12, 2018 9:54 PM

I think CFL (if it happens) would do fine in Halifax. Yes, they need bigger crowds than the other sports to make money but there are only 9 home games a year. Plus it's the one sport that has a shot at becoming a regional team for Nova Scotia and even the Maritimes, and also the opportunity to make each game an event - making it more likely for some out-of-towners to make a mini-trip out of it.

Also, the CFL's marketing, media presence and visibility is definitely sub-par but it's still quite a bit better than any of the other leagues that are, will be or might be in Halifax.

As such, it will likely be the most "prestige" sports product in town. (Unless some people get a hard-on because the NLL has a few U.S. teams, and think it's the big time as a result. Now that I think of it... that's a definite possibility...)

JHikka Dec 12, 2018 9:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8406595)
As such, it will likely be the most "prestige" sports product in town. (Unless some people get a hard-on because the NLL has a few U.S. teams, and think it's the big time as a result. Now that I think of it... that's a definite possibility...)

Oh, please. The NLL because they play against US teams?

The current prestige team in Halifax is the Mooseheads, full stop. They're consistently competitive and consistently churn out top NHL talent. They're the direct local competition for a potential CFL team in terms of eyeballs and corporate support.

Both the NBL and NLL play relatively short seasons that don't overlap with the CFL schedule. A good portion of the CHL schedule overlaps (August-November) and Mooseheads play two-three times/week in that span. The CPL will run against the CFL all summer but remains to be seen how competitive they are in the markets they'll be entering (the Wanderers seem to be doing well in ticket confirmations and premium seat sales, IIRC).

Acajack Dec 12, 2018 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8406601)
Oh, please. The NLL because they play against US teams?

.

I've been there a few times. Trust me. It exists.

Acajack Dec 12, 2018 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka (Post 8406601)
Oh, please. The NLL because they play against US teams?

The current prestige team in Halifax is the Mooseheads, full stop. They're consistently competitive and consistently churn out top NHL talent. They're the direct local competition for a potential CFL team in terms of eyeballs and corporate support.

Both the NBL and NLL play relatively short seasons that don't overlap with the CFL schedule. A good portion of the CHL schedule overlaps (August-November) and Mooseheads play two-three times/week in that span. The CPL will run against the CFL all summer but remains to be seen how competitive they are in the markets they'll be entering (the Wanderers seem to be doing well in ticket confirmations and premium seat sales, IIRC).

Seriously though, I agree with you that the Mooseheads are the top dog in the market and will be the main competition for the Schooners when it comes to the sports entertainment dollar and media attention. For all the reasons you cited - plus the Mooseheads play a sport that's more popular overall.

The CPL is a bit of an unknown, but though I wish them well, this is National Canadian Pro Soccer League 4.0 or 5.0 I think, so...

SaskScraper Dec 13, 2018 3:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime (Post 8406587)
Buffalo has had good support for the Bandits for quite some time, actually. Same can be said about the Mammoth. I think in both cases lacrosse fills the "affordable pro sports" niche which obviously the major leagues do not.

One thing that bodes well for Halifax is that they will be inheriting a good team from Rochester. I don't know if a brand new team would have success drawing fans, but a solid team from the start will help them build buzz right out of the gate. Moreso than anything, I feel that was the biggest factor in the Rush's success. I don't know anyone who was interested in lacrosse before they moved to Saskatoon and I know plenty of people thought it would fail. The success of the team brought in fans that loved the atmosphere and it helped to build buzz. Now we have arguably the best supported team in the league.

It's almost cliche to look at Halifax pro sports and say "they'll be the Saskatchewan of the Maritimes" but in this case it could be true.

Totally agree, The NLL entertainment value & fast moving action coupled with an experienced winning team in The Rush in a new city & province that has generations of rich sporting history guaranteed the NLL a successful franchise in Saskatchewan. It appears the cookie cutter formula of the Rush's triumph in relocating to Saskatoon is being used to see if Halifax can sustain same success with a tried & true relocated American team.

That Halifax Arena will basically have to sell out all their games to even be an average attendance success for the NLL. Colorado's NLL team goes up against hockey & basketball, & for brief period the NFL & MLB, during Mammoth's season but still gets the same attendance as the Avalanche. I have faith Halifax NLL team can be a success but not sure if it can be done, considering Halifax Hurricances can't even get more than couple thousand spectators and Mooseheads average little more than 6 to 7 thousand... similar to a hockey team like the Regina Pats.

As far as CFL goes, Halifax doesn't really get more than a couple thousand for it's university football team's games as compared to University of Saskatchewan's 6,500+ spectators, so hard to say if Saskatchewan example is an obtainable goal for success for a CFL team in Atlantic Canada. Not as much corporate sponsorship & less disposable income in that part of the country would only reinforce limited chance for long term success.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka
Oh, please. The NLL because they play against US teams?
Hard to say, right now novelty of having USA teams for Halifax NLL team to play with may be an added spectator draw.

The WHL in Western Canada has American teams but I doubt anyone would say The Rush have an advantage over Saskatoon Blades since there had been just as many American hockey teams that come to Saskatoon as do NLL teams.

The Rush games against Vancouver & Calgary have just as many if not more spectators as when playing the American teams. The CFL is an all-Canadian league & even when there were American teams years ago, The Riders attendance over the last decade has been the highest than any other decade.

I think it's just novel for Canadians 'outside' of Saskatchewan to know American lacrosse & hockey teams play all over Saskatchewan.

Acajack Dec 13, 2018 3:57 PM

I don't have the answer but I think it's an interesting question whether the Saskatchewan Rush would still get 15,000 people a game if they played in a lacrosse league with only Canadian teams.

EpicPonyTime Dec 13, 2018 5:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8407377)
I don't have the answer but I think it's an interesting question whether the Saskatchewan Rush would still get 15,000 people a game if they played in a lacrosse league with only Canadian teams.

While I don't think it is a major factor, I do think fans get a kick out of knowing Saskatoon is in a league where there are teams from cities like Philadelphia or San Diego where they likely don't even know where Saskatoon is. New York will be getting a team in 2020; it'll be cool to play them.

esquire Dec 13, 2018 5:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8407377)
I don't have the answer but I think it's an interesting question whether the Saskatchewan Rush would still get 15,000 people a game if they played in a lacrosse league with only Canadian teams.

I can't speak for Sask, but back in Winnipeg's days without the NHL, I don't think the opponent's home country really mattered all that much to Moose fans. It's not like people got more jacked up for a game against the Chicago Wolves or Houston Aeros than they did for games against the Saint John's Maple Leafs or Hamilton Bulldogs.

As for the lacrosse situation, it's not like people in NYC are going to be watching lacrosse games on TVs in living rooms and sports bars all over town. Are NLL games even televised?

That said, I suppose there is still something to the idea that Canadians tend to get tickled when we think Americans are paying attention. The local media made quite a fuss when NBC Sports Network came to Winnipeg to televise a midweek game between the Jets and Caps earlier this season. Numerous breathless, almost delusional references to people watching the game from coast to coast in the US, etc. But what I don't think the local hacks fully realized is that NBC Sports Network is the old Outdoor Life Network... a niche cable channel that hardly anyone watches. This wasn't Bob Costas and NBC Sports. They average maybe a hair over 400,000 US viewers for regular season NHL games... which is in the same ballpark as what one of the less interesting CFL matchups pulls in in a country with 10% of the population. So really next to no one in the US saw the game. But the mere mention of NBC had the fairy dust floating in the air...

JHikka Dec 13, 2018 5:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8407517)
That said, I suppose there is still something to the idea that Canadians tend to get tickled when we think Americans are paying attention. The local media made quite a fuss when NBC Sports Network came to Winnipeg to televise a midweek game between the Jets and Caps earlier this season. Numerous breathless, almost delusional references to people watching the game from coast to coast in the US, etc. But what I don't think the local hacks fully realized is that NBC Sports Network is the old Outdoor Life Network... a niche cable channel that hardly anyone watches. This wasn't Bob Costas and NBC Sports. They average maybe a hair over 400,000 US viewers for regular season NHL games... which is in the same ballpark as what one of the less interesting CFL matchups pulls in in a country with 10% of the population. So really next to no one in the US saw the game. But the mere mention of NBC had the fairy dust floating in the air...

This thread isn't about American ratings so I really won't get into it, but...I can't seem to find any Winnipeg/Washington game from early in the season on NBCSN. There was a Winnipeg/Toronto game which garnered 167K viewers (the lowest exclusive NBCSN game of the season, which makes sense given the lack of American teams). The NBCSN average for this season is 279K (as of last week).

NBCSN ratings have declined from where they were five years ago but SCF ratings are up for NBC and have been since the lockouts, which is where the main money is anyway.

I also recall some Winnipeg folks giving the SN people a hard time on social media for only going to Winnipeg when Toronto were there. :haha:

Acajack Dec 13, 2018 5:49 PM

I guess I am still haunted by the (exaggerated) buzz over the Montreal Machine and the Ottawa Bootleggers...


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