SkyscraperPage Forum

SkyscraperPage Forum (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php)
-   Canada (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18)
-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

hollywoodcory Jun 14, 2021 1:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9309550)
WS filed its July 5-August 4 schedule and its a pretty aggressive increase in international flying, particularly from YYC where they jump from 3 non-stops to 8 outside of Canada.

YYC-LGW 2x weekly
YYC-CUN 1x weekly
YYC-PVR 1x weekly
YYC-LAX 3x weekly
YYC-LAS 3x weekly
YYC-PHX 2x weekly
YYC-ATL 2x weekly
YYC-PSP 2x weekly

YYZ-LGW 2x weekly
YYZ-CUN 1x weekly
YYZ-MBJ 1x weekly
YYZ-KIN 1x weekly
YYZ-MCO 1x weekly

Also YVR-OGG appears to be resuming mid-July 1x weekly.

Domestic appears to be mostly the same as what's scheduled from June 25th.

Additionally there is:
YYC-SFO from July 23 2x weekly
YVR-LAS from July 25 2x weekly

On the domestic front I see YYC-YYT & YLL are scheduled from late July. I believe this would mean by mid-Summer WS will have restored its full YYC domestic network (by destination) other than YQB.

thewave46 Jun 14, 2021 1:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9308847)
Perhaps third times the charm? WS has again requested and obtained slots for DXB for W21. This time they requested 5x weekly (which is what the bilateral allows).

I guess they can use their codeshare with Emirates to help fill flights, as I can't imagine there's huge O&D to Dubai itself.

As you mention, Westjet wants slots at LHR and probably AMS. If they want to get into LHR, they may be waiting awhile if they don't want to pony up. AMS would be a good fit if the number of flight movements there increased - Westjet could hoover up those KLM passengers out of YYC and YEG.

BenYOW Jun 14, 2021 2:34 PM

Air Canada / Air Canada Cargo has provided additional information on the commencement of dedicated Boeing 767 freighter operations. Highlights:
  • The first 767 freighters will enter service in October 2021
  • Initial routes in October 2021 will be from Toronto Pearson International Airport to Miami, Quito, Lima, Mexico City and Guadalajara
  • In early 2022, additional destinations will include Halifax, St. John’s, Madrid and Frankfurt as more aircraft enter service
  • Two 767 freighters will be in service by the end of 2021, with two more aircraft to follow in 2022
News Release

hollywoodcory Jun 14, 2021 3:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9310870)
I guess they can use their codeshare with Emirates to help fill flights, as I can't imagine there's huge O&D to Dubai itself.

As you mention, Westjet wants slots at LHR and probably AMS. If they want to get into LHR, they may be waiting awhile if they don't want to pony up. AMS would be a good fit if the number of flight movements there increased - Westjet could hoover up those KLM passengers out of YYC and YEG.

WS just announced YYC-AMS this morning. 2x weekly. Starting August 5.

WS20 YYC 20:55 - 13:30+1 AMS 789 47
WS21 AMS 15:30 - 16:15 YYC 789 15

esquire Jun 14, 2021 3:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9310987)
WS just announced YYC-AMS this morning. 2x weekly. Starting August 5.

WS20 YYC 20:55 - 13:30+1 AMS 789 47
WS21 AMS 15:30 - 16:15 YYC 789 15

Are LGW and AMS the only European routes that WS has confirmed to be operating/restarting? I have a pile of credits I want to use, so I need to know my options :D

hollywoodcory Jun 14, 2021 3:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9310991)
Are LGW and AMS the only European routes that WS has confirmed to be operating/restarting? I have a pile of credits I want to use, so I need to know my options :D

CDG is also currently scheduled in August as well, but its TBD if that will operate.

thewave46 Jun 14, 2021 3:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9310987)
WS just announced YYC-AMS this morning. 2x weekly. Starting August 5.

WS20 YYC 20:55 - 13:30+1 AMS 789 47
WS21 AMS 15:30 - 16:15 YYC 789 15

Well then. I was under the impression that AMS had restrictions on slots, but I guess that's been lifted.

I'm curious if KLM decides to stick it out and compete or Westjet takes the market. I strongly suspect that it was Westjet's Gatwick flight that killed British Airways flights to Calgary, so we'll see if that holds true for this case.

casper Jun 14, 2021 3:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9310994)
Well then. I was under the impression that AMS had restrictions on slots, but I guess that's been lifted.

I'm curious if KLM decides to stick it out and compete or Westjet takes the market. I strongly suspect that it was Westjet's Gatwick flight that killed British Airways flights to Calgary, so we'll see if that holds true for this case.

I would say a combination of Air Canada, WestJet and KLM. There is only so many premium passengers traveling between Calgary and Europe or connecting onward to the middle east. Air Canada and KLM have a good percentage of that. I suspect the premium cabin is what BA is chasing after. Then WestJet comes along adding quite a bit of economy seats and there is not much reason for BA to stick around.

hollywoodcory Jun 14, 2021 3:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9310994)
Well then. I was under the impression that AMS had restrictions on slots, but I guess that's been lifted.

I'm curious if KLM decides to stick it out and compete or Westjet takes the market. I strongly suspect that it was Westjet's Gatwick flight that killed British Airways flights to Calgary, so we'll see if that holds true for this case.

The WS service is currently only seasonal. I'd imagine KLM will stick it out for now.

Seems odd they wouldn't also go after FCO (which they already announced) with Italy allowing fully vaccinated travelers.

thewave46 Jun 14, 2021 3:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9311034)
I would say a combination of Air Canada, WestJet and KLM. There is only so many premium passengers traveling between Calgary and Europe or connecting onward to the middle east. Air Canada and KLM have a good percentage of that. I suspect the premium cabin is what BA is chasing after. Then WestJet comes along adding quite a bit of economy seats and there is not much reason for BA to stick around.

You're probably right.

AC and BA were competing for the premium passengers to London itself.

BA, AC (via Frankfurt on Lufthansa) and KLM were taking care of connections to points further onwards.

With the entry of Westjet, AC and Westjet were duking it out for the economy passengers.

It wasn't sustainable for BA and they could probably use their limited Heathrow slots on a better destination.

Anyway, I'm curious how the relationship between Westjet and KLM works, as they codeshare on flights. Does KLM cede the flying to lower-cost Westjet over the long run? Westjet wants to build itself into an international airline, so I eventually could see a daily service to AMS.

The big European airlines have been downsizing their services to Canada outside of the major airports (YYZ/YUL/YVR) for some time now. Maybe KLM will try and continue to buck the trend?

thenoflyzone Jun 14, 2021 8:10 PM

Alberta is the province with the most vaccine hesitancy in the country. Will be interesting to see how that factors into WS's European ambitions this year and next. They're going to need to rely on connections from out of province even more to fill these flights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9310994)
Well then. I was under the impression that AMS had restrictions on slots, but I guess that's been lifted.

I doubt these are permanent slots. These are most likely ad-hoc slots granted to WS, same as what happened at LHR.

With the slot alleviations granted in Europe for S21, a lot of airlines were able to return slots they didn't need. This in turn enables airlines wanting access to places like AMS or LHR to operate their routes, for this summer only.

hollywoodcory Jun 14, 2021 8:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9311391)
I doubt these are permanent slots. These are most likely ad-hoc slots granted to WS, same as what happened at LHR.

With the slot alleviations granted in Europe for S21, a lot of airlines were able to return slots they didn't need. This in turn enables airlines wanting access to places like AMS or LHR to operate their routes, for this summer only.

Likely. These flights are only loaded August 5-November 1 and don't appear in 2022 as of now.

casper Jun 15, 2021 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9311043)
You're probably right.

AC and BA were competing for the premium passengers to London itself.

BA, AC (via Frankfurt on Lufthansa) and KLM were taking care of connections to points further onwards.

With the entry of Westjet, AC and Westjet were duking it out for the economy passengers.

It wasn't sustainable for BA and they could probably use their limited Heathrow slots on a better destination.

Anyway, I'm curious how the relationship between Westjet and KLM works, as they codeshare on flights. Does KLM cede the flying to lower-cost Westjet over the long run? Westjet wants to build itself into an international airline, so I eventually could see a daily service to AMS.

The big European airlines have been downsizing their services to Canada outside of the major airports (YYZ/YUL/YVR) for some time now. Maybe KLM will try and continue to buck the trend?

The WestJet flight is timed for connections from major points in western Canada and some of their US destinations at the Calgary end and KLM flights within Europe on the Amsterdam end.

The KLM flight is timed for onward connections from Amsterdam into Africa, the Middle East and Europe.

They are each playing to the strength of their network at their hub.

How exactly they compensate each other on the code share side is a confidential detail they are not going to share with anyone. It could be pre-rated based on number of miles of it one airline is always operating the overseas flight they have a fixed price they are paying for the connecting flight. We don't know. Where the two airlines deliberately plan who is going to operate which route and under which conditions is something that would illegal unless they have anti-trust immunity as part of some time of joint venture. I don't believe WS is part of any such joint venture over the Atlantic.

Last thing to add is Air France and KLM are basically the same company with Air France serving the more premium heavy routes. The fact Calgary has KLM and not Air France is probably a good indication their premium market in Calgary is fairly limited.

Dominion301 Jun 15, 2021 2:20 PM

Sector May-20 May-21 % Change
Dom: 8,386 / 21,599 / +157.6% - with Flair's arrival, I'd expect June numbers to almost double.
TB: 535 / 0 / -100.0%
Int'l: 0 / 0 / #DIV/0!
TTL: 8,921 / 21,599 / +142.1%

Sector / YTD 2020 / YTD 2021 / % Change
Dom: 752,871 / 117,426 / -84.4%
TB: 162,874 / 0 / -100.0%
Int'l: 168,382 / 0 / -100.0%
TTL: 1,084,127 / 117,426 / -89.2%

12 Months Rolling / % Change vs Year End 2019
Dom: 396,592 / -90.1%
TB: 219 / -100.0%
Int'l: 0 / -100.0%
TTL: 396,811 / -92.2% - the first time this has gone up since COVID-19 struck was 384k in April

The meaningful indicator these days
Month-Over-Month Change
Sector / Apr-21 / May-21 / % Change
Dom: 20,716 / 21,599 / +4.3%
TB: 0 / 0 / #DIV/0!
Int'l: 0 / 0 / #DIV/0!
TTL: 20,716 / 21,599 / +4.3%
Avg/Day: 691 / 697 / +0.9% - newly added stat to compare daily averages - for comparison, May 2019 was 14,209!

Coldrsx Jun 15, 2021 2:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9311391)
Alberta is the province with the most vaccine hesitancy in the country. Will be interesting to see how that factors into WS's European ambitions this year and next. They're going to need to rely on connections from out of province even more to fill these flights.

Maybe, but we are nearly at 70% and the majority who would be using these European routes were probably the firs to get pricked.

All good.:tup:

zahav Jun 16, 2021 6:03 AM

Alberta's vaccination rates are not drastically different than other places in Canada really, it's splitting hairs when you get above 70-75ish. I wouldn't say any airline would look at small percentile differences. And I also don't think 2x weekly summer is enough to boot KLM out. If they go to year round daily, that's a different story. Maybe we'll see what happens when Westjet formally joins Skyteam.

Air Canada announces a slew of route resumptions and new services from YUL-YDF, YUL-YXE-YQR, and YUL-YLW. I thought AC already had served YDF and YXE/YQR from YUL? But they are calling them new routes, so I could be mistaken. I am so surprsied by all these airlines starting service to YLW, I didn't think it was a draw for anoyone outside BC or Alberta, I am shocked the amount of flights added there. And they aren't a massive originating source for connecting flights either, so can't see the push or pull factors. And AC doesn't even have direct flights from YVR-YHZ or YVR-YQB even now with the A220. It actually appears AC is dehubbing YVR to an extent, they are totally bypassing it with all of the new domestic connections, and aren't even recommitting to most international routes. I think they might be realizing demand is too soft to sustain it

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2021...iently-Connect

JakeLRS Jun 16, 2021 6:57 AM

Flair adds Grande Prairie, AB as 20th Destination

Service to Grand Prairie starts August 1st. 2 Non-Stop Destinations.

Vancouver 2x Weekly
Toronto 2x Weekly.

This is really interesting.

hollywoodcory Jun 16, 2021 1:42 PM

https://twitter.com/lufthansaNews/st...49831547469832

LH is tweeting they're launching FRA-YHZ 3x weekly on their Eurowings Discover brand from June 13, 2022.

nname Jun 16, 2021 5:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9313088)
And they aren't a massive originating source for connecting flights either, so can't see the push or pull factors. And AC doesn't even have direct flights from YVR-YHZ or YVR-YQB even now with the A220.

YVR doesn't have A220 based there, the smallest plane is MAX. Same as YYC. There aren't enough A220 to share between all 4 bases.

YOWhopeful Jun 16, 2021 7:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9313225)
https://twitter.com/lufthansaNews/st...49831547469832

LH is tweeting they're launching FRA-YHZ 3x weekly on their Eurowings Discover brand from June 13, 2022.

So has YOW been forgotten yet again? 🙄

whatnext Jun 16, 2021 8:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JakeLRS (Post 9313102)
Flair adds Grande Prairie, AB as 20th Destination

Service to Grand Prairie starts August 1st. 2 Non-Stop Destinations.

Vancouver 2x Weekly
Toronto 2x Weekly.

This is really interesting.

Whose money is Flair burning through?

How many times do we need it proved that Canada can really only support two large airlines?

zahav Jun 17, 2021 5:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 9313495)
YVR doesn't have A220 based there, the smallest plane is MAX. Same as YYC. There aren't enough A220 to share between all 4 bases.

Oh that makes sense, but still it seems like AC isn't really giving YVR anything, in fact they seem to be purposely undercutting it by launching routes to many destinations that would otherwise have connected in YVR (HNL, YLW, all the China/Japan flights now out east). These are all destinations that would've connected in YVR in the past. If I were some of the YVR based Air Canada crew I'd be a bit worried that these cuts will stick around even after travel recovers,

casper Jun 17, 2021 7:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 9313677)
Whose money is Flair burning through?

How many times do we need it proved that Canada can really only support two large airlines?

If this is a YVR-YYZ flight with a station stop in a small community it probably is fairly low risk. They can fill the flight with YVR-YYZ passengers and pick up a few extra seats they sell at bit more of a premium with local passengers.

casper Jun 17, 2021 7:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9314132)
Oh that makes sense, but still it seems like AC isn't really giving YVR anything, in fact they seem to be purposely undercutting it by launching routes to many destinations that would otherwise have connected in YVR (HNL, YLW, all the China/Japan flights now out east). These are all destinations that would've connected in YVR in the past. If I were some of the YVR based Air Canada crew I'd be a bit worried that these cuts will stick around even after travel recovers,

That should be expected on the China and Japan routes. It significantly longer to stop in Vancouver.

I don't think HNL is going to last. AC is just searching for any traffic. One things get going they will be back to optimizing the routes they fly for profit and this one will disappear.

nname Jun 17, 2021 8:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9314159)
If this is a YVR-YYZ flight with a station stop in a small community it probably is fairly low risk. They can fill the flight with YVR-YYZ passengers and pick up a few extra seats they sell at bit more of a premium with local passengers.

No, they are replacing some routes, perhaps the worse performing ones.

YVR-YQU replaces YEG-YXS (the plane will run YVR-YXS-YVR-YQU-YVR instead of YVR-YXS-YEG-YXS-YVR)
YYZ-YQU replaces YYZ-YLW

Dominion301 Jun 17, 2021 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YOWhopeful (Post 9313652)
So has YOW been forgotten yet again? ������

Yup. Multiple people on that twitter thread asked about YOW-FRA and the reply was 'not this year'. So let's see, YHZ for summer 2022 looks like it'll have:
GLA - WS
DUB - WS
LGW - WS
CDG - WS
LHR - AC
FRA - LH (Condor?)

YOW will have (at this point): _______ = zip! Yup, makes sense for a city nearly triple the size to have nothing.

MonctonRad Jun 17, 2021 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9314222)
Yup. Multiple people on that twitter thread about YOW-FRA and the reply was 'not this year'. So let's see, YHZ for summer 2022 looks like it'll have:
GLA - WS
DUB - WS
LGW - WS
CDG - WS
LHR - AC
FRA - LH (Condor?)

YOW will have (at this point): _______ = zip! Yup, makes sense for a city nearly triple the size to have nothing.

You have to remember though that Ottawa is closer to Montreal than Halifax is to Moncton, and thus it is easy for Ottawa residents to fly out of Montreal to overseas destinations. Halifax on the other hand is the largest hub for an entire region of Canada.

Dominion301 Jun 17, 2021 12:59 PM

We now know what Swoop are doing this winter with that 10th frame. They're adding 3 new cities SAN (announced yet again), PIE & SFB (not MCO...product differentiation from mainline I guess). Routes:

YEG-SAN 3x
YEG-SFB 2x
YYZ-PIE 3x
YHM-PIE 2x
YYZ-SFB 4x
YHM-SFB 2x

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...859027640.html

Dominion301 Jun 17, 2021 1:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 9314230)
You have to remember though that Ottawa is closer to Montreal than Halifax is to Moncton, and thus it is easy for Ottawa residents to fly out of Montreal to overseas destinations. Halifax on the other hand is the largest hub for an entire region of Canada.

I knew that would be pointed out. Ottawa is always at the Montreal & Toronto squeeze disadvantage to Halifax. Now it's being taken to an extreme.

hollywoodcory Jun 17, 2021 2:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9314222)
Yup. Multiple people on that twitter thread asked about YOW-FRA and the reply was 'not this year'. So let's see, YHZ for summer 2022 looks like it'll have:
GLA - WS
DUB - WS
LGW - WS
CDG - WS
LHR - AC
FRA - LH (Condor?)

YOW will have (at this point): _______ = zip! Yup, makes sense for a city nearly triple the size to have nothing.

Condor's S22 schedule is presently a carbon copy of what was planned this year, but I suspect there will be changes. I don't see YYC supporting three airlines to FRA next year.

YOW & YEG have become the forgotten brothers at this point, although YEG at least has KLM.

I wonder if WS will take another stabb at MAN with the MAX back in play?

Truenorth00 Jun 17, 2021 2:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9314279)
I knew that would be pointed out. Ottawa is always at the Montreal & Toronto squeeze disadvantage to Halifax. Now it's being taken to an extreme.

And?

Airlines are in the business of making money. They are not public services building service plans on some concept of equity.

YOW also suffers from two big realities:

1) The largest employer in town has really curtailed corporate travel and won't be seeing substantial resumption for a while. I imagine this might really become the new normal for a large part of the federal government too. Especially, if there's a change in government to one focusing on fiscal restraint.

2) It's an airport dominated by a JV partner of Lufthansa. Why send a frame to YOW and use up a slot, when AC will shuttle pax to YUL or YYZ, to connect on to widebodies.

You'd make the exact same call if you were in LH planning.

someone123 Jun 17, 2021 4:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00 (Post 9314322)
Airlines are in the business of making money. They are not public services building service plans on some concept of equity.

Even if they were I'm not sure that doling out flights by metropolitan population makes sense. Different regions have different transportation needs.

Truenorth00 Jun 17, 2021 5:15 PM

Ottawans seem to have this chip on their shoulder that they should get proportionally rewarded compared to Toronto and Montreal. Reality doesn't work like that. Especially in aviation.

If I were an AC or LH exec, I would make the same call too. Ottawa residents don't have much choices. So they will fly whatever they are served up. So why bother with a high cost low yield operation at YOW? Meanwhile, boosting frequencies to the bigger metros improves returns substantially by spreading fixed costs in those cities across multiple flights and opening up even more connection opportunities.

The best thing Ottawa could get would an HSR connection to Montreal so that Dorval became accessible in about an hour. That would actually open up way more travel opportunities than scrapping for the odd daily long haul narrowbody. Though, I am sure in due course, Ottawa will start seeing more long-haul narrowbody flights from some of the LCCs.

thewave46 Jun 17, 2021 5:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00 (Post 9314519)
Ottawans seem to have this chip on their shoulder that they should get proportionally rewarded compared to Toronto and Montreal. Reality doesn't work like that. Especially in aviation.

If I were an AC or LH exec, I would make the same call too. Ottawa residents don't have much choices. So they will fly whatever they are served up. So why bother with a high cost low yield operation at YOW? Meanwhile, boosting frequencies to the bigger metros improves returns substantially by spreading fixed costs in those cities across multiple flights and opening up even more connection opportunities.

The best thing Ottawa could get would an HSR connection to Montreal so that Dorval became accessible in about an hour. That would actually open up way more travel opportunities than scrapping for the odd daily long haul narrowbody. Though, I am sure in due course, Ottawa will start seeing more long-haul narrowbody flights from some of the LCCs.

Ottawa has flights to London (Heathrow no less), in addition to just about every major city in Canada. Along with a number of US destinations.

OK, so no Dublin, Glasgow or Paris. Frankfurt might be happening at some point, but the airline industry is still recovering, so I get the hesitancy. Montreal is one of the best connected cities to Paris for obvious reasons, so I could see why both Westjet and Air Canada are reluctant to jump in.

Looking at other airports around the world, I don't seem to get the sense that airports of 5-8 million passengers in other regions have huge numbers of intercontinental flights either.

Truenorth00 Jun 17, 2021 5:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9314530)
Ottawa has flights to London (Heathrow no less), in addition to just about every major city in Canada. Along with a number of US destinations.

As is appropriate for the national capital of a country with 38M, that is also a metro of 1.4M.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9314530)
OK, so no Dublin, Glasgow or Paris. Frankfurt might be happening at some point, but the airline industry is still recovering, so I get the hesitancy. Montreal is one of the best connected cities to Paris for obvious reasons, so I could see why both Westjet and Air Canada are reluctant to jump in.

Montreal gets more than just connections to France. And at least of some those flights as just a function of AC having a hub there. If ever Westjet jumps onboard the SkyTeam train, they'd expand there too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9314530)
Looking at other airports around the world, I don't seem to get the sense that airports of 5-8 million passengers in other regions have huge numbers of intercontinental flights either.

I do agree that Ottawa does decently for its size. Which is kinda why the whining about getting shafted compared to other cities is odd. We get the connections we need.

What we actually need is diversity of options rather than destinations per se. Having Air Canada's JV partner fly from FRA really isn't going to help the Ottawa traveler much. I would literally rather have British Airways go toe-to-toe with Air Canada over YOW-LHR.

jamincan Jun 17, 2021 5:54 PM

It would seem to be a big opportunity for someone like Westjet to jump in with something like YOW-CDG or AMS. Of course, you can bet that AC would drop prices and add FRA in that case until they're chased out.

Alexcaban Jun 17, 2021 7:07 PM

Just FYI Air Canada launches new YUL-CAI route today.

Looking like a full load.

Denscity Jun 18, 2021 12:39 AM

Now that Air Canada is coming back Central Mountain Air is pulling back out at YCG.

thenoflyzone Jun 19, 2021 3:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9314530)
Ottawa has flights to London (Heathrow no less), in addition to just about every major city in Canada. Along with a number of US destinations.

OK, so no Dublin, Glasgow or Paris. Frankfurt might be happening at some point, but the airline industry is still recovering, so I get the hesitancy. Montreal is one of the best connected cities to Paris for obvious reasons, so I could see why both Westjet and Air Canada are reluctant to jump in.

Looking at other airports around the world, I don't seem to get the sense that airports of 5-8 million passengers in other regions have huge numbers of intercontinental flights either.

Ottawa had flights to London. Not anymore.

I was under the impression that YOW-LHR was fairly important for AC, and that it would return by next year. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case. AC hasn't flown YOW-LHR since the onset of the pandemic, and won't be in a rush to re-add it either, even after the restrictions for intl flights are lifted.

Apparently the route isn't as lucrative as I initially thought.

Earlier last month, AC hinted at maybe getting some A321LRs. I can see them holding off on resuming YOW-LHR until that happens. And that might take a couple of years at least. Until then, they will funnel all the YOW-LHR crowd through YUL/YYZ.

thewave46 Jun 19, 2021 3:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9316238)
Ottawa had flights to London. Not anymore.

I was under the impression that YOW-LHR was fairly important for AC, and that it would return by next year. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case. AC hasn't flown YOW-LHR since the onset of the pandemic, and won't be in a rush to re-add it either, even after the restrictions for intl flights are lifted.

Apparently the route isn't as lucrative as I initially thought.

Earlier last month, AC hinted at maybe getting some A321LRs. I can see them holding off on resuming YOW-LHR until that happens. And that might take a couple of years at least. Until then, they will funnel all the YOW-LHR crowd through YUL/YYZ.

I think YOW-LHR will be halted until the slot waiver expires at Heathrow and business traffic picks up.

There's no way AC would risk giving up a slot there by not using it.

Can the 737 MAX make it from Ottawa to London? The A321LR/XLR would be a good fit for AC, but the A320neo would have been the better option, period. It must have been a screaming deal from Boeing to go with the 737 MAX.

thenoflyzone Jun 19, 2021 4:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9316245)
I think YOW-LHR will be halted until the slot waiver expires at Heathrow and business traffic picks up.

There's no way AC would risk giving up a slot there by not using it.

Can the 737 MAX make it from Ottawa to London? The A321LR/XLR would be a good fit for AC, but the A320neo would have been the better option, period. It must have been a screaming deal from Boeing to go with the 737 MAX.

They'll just double up on YUL-LHR in order to keep the slot. They can move it to YYZ as well if need be. The point is, they will focus on building back up the hubs first, and YOW-LHR isn't part of that plan.

Yes, the MAX can fly YOW-LHR. It's within range. However, the 4,000NM range of the A321LR is better suited for the route, especially in winter, for the westbound.

casper Jun 19, 2021 2:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9316273)
They'll just double up on YUL-LHR in order to keep the slot. They can move it to YYZ as well if need be. The point is, they will focus on building back up the hubs first, and YOW-LHR isn't part of that plan.

Yes, the MAX can fly YOW-LHR. It's within range. However, the 4,000NM range of the A321LR is better suited for the route, especially in winter, for the westbound.

That makes sense. When I lived in Ottawa in the late 1990s there was an AC and a Canadian YOW-LHR that left at adjoining gates at nearly the same time. Both were 767 back then. So today in normal times there should be sufficient traffic. But it is not normal times.

I suspect the route is government heavy. There is not a lot government travel with COVID bans etc. in place. When traffic comes back I suspect they will move the extra YUL flight back to YOW and at the same bump up the size of the aircraft from YUL. Until then it makes sense to keep the extra flight out of YUL.

nname Jun 20, 2021 6:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9277620)
AC expanding its Hawaii schedule with new routes from YYZ, YUL and YYC from December 2021.

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2021...-and-Vancouver

New routes:
YYZ-OGG
YUL-HNL
YYC-HNL (Service Resumption)

YYZ-HNL/OGG & YUL-HNL are on the 787 (release doesn't say which variant) and YVR/YYC-Hawaii flights are on the MAX (YVR-HNL/OGG on 787 during peak periods).

Edit: YUL-HNL & YYZ/YYZ-OGG are both 788. YVR-HNL/OGG are 789. YVR-KOA & YYC-OGG/HNL are 7M8

Curious to see if WS adds YYZ-Hawaii to counter?

Advanced booking must be very good...

YYZ-OGG increased from 1x weekly to 2x weekly, and will use 789 instead of 788
YVR-HNL increase from daily to daily 789 + 3x weekly 7M8
YVR-OGG increase from daily to daily 789 + 4x weekly 7M8

No change for other routes

hollywoodcory Jun 20, 2021 6:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 9317223)
Advanced booking must be very good...

YYZ-OGG increased from 1x weekly to 2x weekly, and will use 789 instead of 788
YVR-HNL increase from daily to daily 789 + 3x weekly 7M8
YVR-OGG increase from daily to daily 789 + 4x weekly 7M8

No change for other routes

Right after WS announced their own Hawaii schedule too. :haha:

Yeah, advance bookings are very good. A few of WS YYC-OGG's are almost 100% sold out on the 789.

BenYOW Jun 23, 2021 3:30 PM

WestJet is entering the dedicated cargo market through the use of Boeing 737-800 Boeing Converted Freighter (BCF) aircraft, beginning in 2022.

Press Release
Quote:

WestJet today announced that it is launching a new dedicated cargo service, using 737-800 Boeing Converted Freighters (BCF), as dedicated aircraft, to fulfill the larger-scale needs of Canadian businesses, freight forwarders, shippers and individual customers. The first of these dedicated 737-800BCFs are expected to be in service by the second quarter of 2022.

“Our new dedicated commercial cargo aircraft are a natural evolution of the competitive guest services WestJet has successfully provided over our 25-year history. It will provide cargo customers with the reliable on-time performance and competitive cost advantage synonymous with WestJet,” said Charles Duncan, WestJet, Executive Vice-President, Cargo and President, Swoop.

Throughout 2022, WestJet Cargo will grow its fleet of 737-800BCFs, to work in tandem with the current offering of WestJet’s existing Cargo business. The 737-800 narrow body aircraft is quick to load and fly, enabling WestJet Cargo to offer greater fuel efficiency, flexibility and frequency for its customers. WestJet Cargo routes and scheduled services will accommodate the diverse needs of cargo customers using WestJet’s existing network and highly skilled 737 pilots.

“WestJet Cargo will enhance economic benefits through competitive product for shippers as well as new employment opportunities,” continued Duncan. “Dedicated, cost efficient and nimble narrow body freighters will make WestJet Cargo a dynamic and strong competitor.”

WestJet Cargo’s ability to ship on dedicated freighters or in the cargo hold on commercial routes provides cargo customers with increased reliability, flexibility and capacity to transport their diverse shipments to their chosen destination.

“Since our inception, 25 years ago, our collective goal at WestJet has been to provide competitive prices and superior service levels,” said Ed Sims, WestJet, President and CEO. “As we launch our dedicated cargo service, into a market that maintains an even greater need for competitive choice than what we saw in 1996, it is our commitment to provide customers with more choice, decreased costs and exceptional customer service.“

As WestJet Cargo expands, so too, will its team, network and flight plans. To learn more about how WestJet Cargo can fulfill shipping needs, or to discover incredible employment opportunities, visit WestJet Cargo.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4k1nYAX...pg&name=medium

thewave46 Jun 23, 2021 3:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenYOW (Post 9319929)
WestJet is entering the dedicated cargo market through the use of Boeing 737-800 Boeing Converted Freighter (BCF) aircraft, beginning in 2022.

Seems late and somewhat pointless given Westjet's limited range worldwide. As a side business on passenger flights, fine, but a dedicated fleet? In North America, there's tons of competition and alternate modes of transport to flight.

Cargo is a moneymaker when one can fill the plane and the other transport options are more limited, which is the case with overseas travel.

Airboy Jun 23, 2021 4:10 PM

Hmm I can see them going after some of the Nunavut NWT market. Or at least into the major airports.

Coldrsx Jun 23, 2021 4:16 PM

Anytime now feds for YEG international flight permissions.

esquire Jun 23, 2021 4:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airboy (Post 9319997)
Hmm I can see them going after some of the Nunavut NWT market. Or at least into the major airports.

Aren't those markets well served already? It seems strange for an established airline to be going into the cargo business with narrowbodies.

esquire Jun 23, 2021 4:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coldrsx (Post 9320001)
Anytime now feds for YEG international flight permissions.

I thought YEG had an exemption for AMS/DEN?


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:30 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.