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casper Sep 25, 2020 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9052956)
Originally I only thought they would be stopping at YYC for customs/health check and the YEG pax would simply re-board the aircraft and that's that. But adding in AMS bound pax too, complicates the matter. It's not like the old days when international/domestic boarded from the same holding room.

Gate 70 can be swung between international/domestic without the aircraft having to be towed. Pax board at D70 bound for AMS, and pax bound for YEG board at C70.

But I guess we will find out next month when the flights actually operate.

This is a made in Canada problem that most of the rest of the world is able to handle without issue. The US is the other country that introduces major complexities with immigration clearance.

In the 90s I was fairly regularly doing trips into Northern UK. Air Canada operated Toronto-Glasgow-Manchester-Toronto. If you were heading to Manchester you simply stayed on the aircraft and cleared in Glasgow.

I have also been on the United flights to Manchester. Back in the day United would fly LAX and San Francisco to Sidney and one of the aircrafts would continue on to Manchester.

In the 80s my uncle would regularly travel to Europe on BA from Vancouver. Back then it was a 747 doing Heathrow-Vancouver-Seattle-Heathrow.

As you say, we will see how they make this work.

hollywoodcory Sep 25, 2020 1:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9052970)
This is a made in Canada problem that most of the rest of the world is able to handle without issue. The US is the other country that introduces major complexities with immigration clearance.

In the 90s I was fairly regularly doing trips into Northern UK. Air Canada operated Toronto-Glasgow-Manchester-Toronto. If you were heading to Manchester you simply stayed on the aircraft and cleared in Glasgow.

I have also been on the United flights to Manchester. Back in the day United would fly LAX and San Francisco to Sidney and one of the aircrafts would continue on to Manchester.

In the 80s my uncle would regularly travel to Europe on BA from Vancouver. Back then it was a 747 doing Heathrow-Vancouver-Seattle-Heathrow.

As you say, we will see how they make this work.

I believe AC once flew LHR in a similar routing (LHR-YYC-YEG-LHR) if I'm not mistaken?

I guess KLM ran the numbers and determined doing this kind of routing would be worth it. Certainly Air Canada's continued suspension of it's own YYC-FRA/LHR has been an added bonus for them.

Airboy Sep 25, 2020 3:04 PM

SO YEG is testing a covid rapid test later this year. Should be interesting if it works. Could make travel a bit less stressful.

If it goes into operation in Nov like they say I will be tested on my Dec flight.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7355724/e...linical-trial/

Dominion301 Sep 26, 2020 1:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9052970)
This is a made in Canada problem that most of the rest of the world is able to handle without issue. The US is the other country that introduces major complexities with immigration clearance.

In the 90s I was fairly regularly doing trips into Northern UK. Air Canada operated Toronto-Glasgow-Manchester-Toronto. If you were heading to Manchester you simply stayed on the aircraft and cleared in Glasgow.

I have also been on the United flights to Manchester. Back in the day United would fly LAX and San Francisco to Sidney and one of the aircrafts would continue on to Manchester.

In the 80s my uncle would regularly travel to Europe on BA from Vancouver. Back then it was a 747 doing Heathrow-Vancouver-Seattle-Heathrow.

As you say, we will see how they make this work.

Both of these examples are again different. The former was also not a triangle as it was a MAN terminator with no local pax boarded at GLA to MAN. The second example, is all international-bound pax only, so you wouldn’t deplane SEA pax at YVR as it’s the wrong country for customs. Did that BA route also operate in the opposition direction a couple of days a week and did BA have 5th freedom traffic rights on YVR-SEA?

casper Sep 27, 2020 9:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9054498)
Both of these examples are again different. The former was also not a triangle as it was a MAN terminator with no local pax boarded at GLA to MAN. The second example, is all international-bound pax only, so you wouldn’t deplane SEA pax at YVR as it’s the wrong country for customs. Did that BA route also operate in the opposition direction a couple of days a week and did BA have 5th freedom traffic rights on YVR-SEA?

The AC to GLA and MAN was a triangle. It returned from MAN back to Toronto.

I believe the BA route was also a triangle. From London Vancouver was always non-stop and the return was a one stop in Seattle. I don't know if BA had 5th freedom rights, if they did I don't believe they used them.

Over the years there have been a few 5th freedom flights out of Vancouver. Japan Airlines on some days had a 747 continue from Vancouver onto Mexico City. The return flight was then from Mexico City to Vancouver and back to Tokyo.

Cathy Pacific until very recently operated HKG-YVR-JFK the return was JFK-YVR-HKG. That use to be a 747 and in recent years was a 777. The leg to JFK has now been discontinued.

hollywoodcory Sep 28, 2020 4:04 PM

United has updated it's service to Canada until February:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...n-to-feb-2021/

Only routes planned are:
ORD-YYZ
DEN-YYC
DEN-YVR
SFO-YVR
IAD-YUL
IAD-YYZ

Delta also updated their schedule until early-December:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...as-of-26sep20/

Routes planned:
DTW-YYZ
DTW-YUL
MSP-YYC
MSP-YWG
SEA-YVR

esquire Sep 28, 2020 4:28 PM

^ Not that I have any intention of taking it anytime soon, but it's kind of nice to see YWG-MSP service continuing. That route has been operating continuously on DL and its predecessor NW for 90 years, going back to 1930.

zahav Sep 28, 2020 9:09 PM

Ugh those transborder scheds are like a punch to the gut. So sad that's what it is, and the airlines aren't even bothering with month-to-month changes any on these routes, all the way to Feb now for some

Dominion301 Sep 28, 2020 9:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9056569)
United has updated it's service to Canada until February:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...n-to-feb-2021/

Only routes planned are:
ORD-YYZ
DEN-YYC
DEN-YVR
SFO-YVR
IAD-YUL
IAD-YYZ

Delta also updated their schedule until early-December:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...as-of-26sep20/

Routes planned:
DTW-YYZ
DTW-YUL
MSP-YYC
MSP-YWG
SEA-YVR

Well the hope for YOW-IAD returning 5x weekly in October is gone.

hollywoodcory Sep 30, 2020 4:14 PM

YYC August Stats

Domestic: 357,826 -72.5%
Transborder: 9,090 -97.2%
International: 4,706 -98.0%
August 2020 Total: 371,622 -81.5%

2020 total to date: 4,435,137 -63.77%

I think that's a 30% increase over July and 160% increase over June. Looking at the international numbers I would imagine KLM and WS are doing okay on their routes.

hollywoodcory Sep 30, 2020 9:30 PM

WestJet made additional changes to it's international schedule in October.

YYC-LGW 2x weekly
YYC-PVR 2x weekly (Previously 1x weekly, both flights are on Saturdays)
YYC-CUN 1x weekly
YYC-SJD 1x weekly
YYC-LAX 3x weekly
YYC-PHX 3x weekly (Increased from announced 2x weekly)
YYC-PSP 2x weekly
YYZ-LGW 2x weekly
YYZ-MBJ 2x weekly
YYZ-CUN 1x weekly
YYZ-KIN 1x weekly

Pegasus Sep 30, 2020 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9053012)
I believe AC once flew LHR in a similar routing (LHR-YYC-YEG-LHR) if I'm not mistaken?

I guess KLM ran the numbers and determined doing this kind of routing would be worth it. Certainly Air Canada's continued suspension of it's own YYC-FRA/LHR has been an added bonus for them.

I flew this routing in May/June, 1992 in a B-767M
Outbound trip:
Air Canada AC 852 Calgary 20:00 Edmonton 20:40
Air Canada AC 852 Edmonton 21:35 Heathrow 13:00
Return Trip:
Air Canada AC 853 Heathrow 14:50 Edmonton 16:35
Air Canada AC 853 Edmonton 17:10 Calgary 17:50

Stopping at YEG between YYC and LHR in both directions makes sense as it is almost directly on the flight path anyway. Total travel time was 10 hours in each direction (as compared to the direct time of 8:35 hours outbound or 9:05 hours return).
_________

On a flight from Calgary to Frankfurt in 1998 (AC844) we stopped in Winnipeg to refuel?? When we took off I'm not sure we were much closer to our destination than when we left YYC. Perhaps jet fuel was cheaper in Winnipeg??

Dominion301 Sep 30, 2020 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus (Post 9059650)
I flew this routing in May/June, 1992 in a B-767M
Outbound trip:
Air Canada AC 852 Calgary 20:00 Edmonton 20:40
Air Canada AC 852 Edmonton 21:35 Heathrow 13:00
Return Trip:
Air Canada AC 853 Heathrow 14:50 Edmonton 16:35
Air Canada AC 853 Edmonton 17:10 Calgary 17:50

Stopping at YEG between YYC and LHR in both directions makes sense as it is almost directly on the flight path anyway. Total travel time was 10 hours in each direction (as compared to the direct time of 8:35 hours outbound or 9:05 hours return).
_________

On a flight from Calgary to Frankfurt in 1998 (AC844) we stopped in Winnipeg to refuel?? When we took off I'm not sure we were much closer to our destination than when we left YYC. Perhaps jet fuel was cheaper in Winnipeg??

Maybe your flight had a medical emergency? Only other reason would be fuel on a really hot day, if you were on I’m guessing at the time a 763?

Pegasus Sep 30, 2020 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9059686)
Maybe your flight had a medical emergency? Only other reason would be fuel on a really hot day, if you were on I’m guessing at the time a 763?

May 30 1998, departed YYC at 18:00 hrs, 16.3°C. B-767-333ER. We didn't divert, we went straight to Winnipeg, if I recall correctly and pilot said it was to refuel!! Go figure!!

Dominion301 Oct 1, 2020 4:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus (Post 9059710)
May 30 1998, departed YYC at 18:00 hrs, 16.3°C. B-767-333ER. We didn't divert, we went straight to Winnipeg, if I recall correctly and pilot said it was to refuel!! Go figure!!

YYC-FRA is a bit of a hike on a 763, so I can see why if the weather wasn’t favourable somewhere along the way and with a full load.

Coldrsx Oct 1, 2020 5:27 PM

Canadian used to have a YYC-YEG-LHR-YEG-YYC routing in the early/mid-90s on a 747-400 I believe (may have been a 200).

I vividly recall my nose view in seats 1H1K.

Those were the days.

TorontoDrew Oct 1, 2020 6:19 PM

A neat shot of Porters Covid grounded fleet.

Sept 18th 2020
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...525ed652_h.jpgGrounded Porter Fleet by Jack Landau, on Flickr

thenoflyzone Oct 2, 2020 1:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pegasus (Post 9059710)
May 30 1998, departed YYC at 18:00 hrs, 16.3°C. B-767-333ER. We didn't divert, we went straight to Winnipeg, if I recall correctly and pilot said it was to refuel!! Go figure!!

Unless YYC was out of fuel for some reason, that doesn’t make any sense. YYC-FRA is 7,550km. And stopping in YWG still leaves you 6885km to go.

You sure it wasn’t a B767-200? Maybe a late sub. Apart from the lack of fuel at YYC, its the most plausible explanation for the stop in YWG. AC had a few non-ER B762s in its fleet in ‘98. Range was about 7200km. So not good for YYC-FRA but doable for YWG-FRA, especially eastbound with the tailwinds.

The B767-300ER is a beast. It has no issues doing YYC-FRA, in any winds/weather/temp. Range is around 11,000km.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9060411)
YYC-FRA is a bit of a hike on a 763, so I can see why if the weather wasn’t favourable somewhere along the way and with a full load.

Like I said, a beast! a B763 doesn’t have any issues doing YYC-FRA. There has to be a simpler answer. It’s either fuel related (lack of it at YYC), or it was a B762 non-ER.

Denscity Oct 2, 2020 7:16 AM

CMA made its inaugural flight into YCG today marking it's first new airline in nearly 3 decades.

Dominion301 Oct 2, 2020 3:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9061000)
Unless YYC was out of fuel for some reason, that doesn’t make any sense. YYC-FRA is 7,550km. And stopping in YWG still leaves you 6885km to go.

You sure it wasn’t a B767-200? Maybe a late sub. Apart from the lack of fuel at YYC, its the most plausible explanation for the stop in YWG. AC had a few non-ER B762s in its fleet in ‘98. Range was about 7200km. So not good for YYC-FRA but doable for YWG-FRA, especially eastbound with the tailwinds.

The B767-300ER is a beast. It has no issues doing YYC-FRA, in any winds/weather/temp. Range is around 11,000km.



Like I said, a beast! a B763 doesn’t have any issues doing YYC-FRA. There has to be a simpler answer. It’s either fuel related (lack of it at YYC), or it was a B762 non-ER.

Yeah it’s true the range shouldn’t be an issue on the 763, especially westbound, unless all of Europe wasn’t a viable alternate (highly unlikely). It couldn’t have been a non-ER 762 as AC never ETOPS’d them.

Here’s my theory (version 3.0, lol): either a fuel shortage at YYC or the fuellers were on strike at YYC that day.


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