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thenoflyzone Jan 5, 2020 6:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty_Mcfly (Post 8790968)
A Boeing 737 just overshot Runway 14 at YHZ. Does not appear to be any injuries.

That’s the second one on the same runway in just over a year. YHZ needs to extent that runway to at least 9 or 10,000ft.

J81 Jan 5, 2020 6:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8791004)
That’s the second one on the same runway in just over a year. YHZ needs to extent that runway to at least 9 or 10,000ft.

Impossible. There are steep grades at both ends of that runway. Its 7700 feet which is plenty especially for a 737. Maybe pilots have to learn going around is better than going off the runway. It has never been a problem in the past even when DC8s and 707s were plentiful.

MonctonRad Jan 5, 2020 6:37 PM

YHZ has lost two 747 air freighters within the last 12-15 years. I think that unacceptable, especially with several other instances of passenger planes leaving the runway (or, as they have said in the past during certain press releases, a "hard landing"). :rolleyes:

thenoflyzone Jan 5, 2020 6:58 PM

Duplicate

thenoflyzone Jan 5, 2020 6:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J81 (Post 8791016)
Impossible. There are steep grades at both ends of that runway. Its 7700 feet which is plenty especially for a 737. Maybe pilots have to learn going around is better than going off the runway. It has never been a problem in the past even when DC8s and 707s were plentiful.

a 7700ft DRY runway is plenty. Not a contaminated one. The runway can and should be longer.

This is 2020. Nothing is impossible. Build the runway on concrete stilts for all I care. It’s been done at places like Funchal.

Fact is, YHZ is prone to some nasty winds from all directions. Both it’s runways need to be 9 or 10,000ft.

Look at KEF. Another airport prone to some nasty winds. They have 2 perpendicular runways both over 10,000ft, insuring no more than a 45 degree Crosswind, and a nice long runway to come to a complete stop in most any situation. YHZ checks only one of those boxes. It should be able to check both.

Marty_Mcfly Jan 5, 2020 7:02 PM

I think the real head scratcher here is why, on a poor weather day, but not an overly windy day, was YHZ utilizing their secondary runway?

J81 Jan 5, 2020 7:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8791045)
a 7700ft DRY runway is plenty. Not a contaminated one. The runway can and should be longer.

This is 2020. Nothing is impossible. Build the runway on concrete stilts for all I care. It’s been done at places like Funchal.

Fact is, YHZ is prone to some nasty winds from all directions. Both it’s runways need to be 9 or 10,000ft.

Look at KEF. Another airport prone to some nasty winds. They have 2 perpendicular runways both over 10,000ft, insuring no more than a 45 degree Crosswind, and a nice long runway to come to a complete stop in most any situation.

Its not going to happen. It doesnt need to happen. Lots of airports use runways of similar length. Look at Logan in Boston. They routinely use 4L and 9 for arrivals and have no issue. This is on the pilots. Not the airport.

q12 Jan 5, 2020 7:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 8791024)
YHZ has lost two 747 air freighters within the last 12-15 years. I think that unacceptable, especially with several other instances of passenger planes leaving the runway (or, as they have said in the past during certain press releases, a "hard landing"). :rolleyes:

The airport doesn't land the plane the pilot does. Stop bashing the Halifax airport for incompetent pilots.

I listened to the ATC feed and the tower told them planes were landing on the long runway 05 with a NNE wind. No idea why the Westjet pilots would choose runway 14 when they were told the conditions by the Tower in YHZ.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENiMXpYX...jpg&name=large

J81 Jan 5, 2020 7:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 8791024)
YHZ has lost two 747 air freighters within the last 12-15 years. I think that unacceptable, especially with several other instances of passenger planes leaving the runway (or, as they have said in the past during certain press releases, a "hard landing"). :rolleyes:

The first one was a departure off the other runway ( rwy 24 ) when the crew departed from the wrong taxiway and did not use all of the available runway for takeoff. 100% pilot error. The “hard landing” was at the opposite end of rwy 24 which was 10500ft when that happened. Again it was pilot error as well as an Air Canada SOP that caused that and not the airport. The 747 that went off the end of 15 last fall touched down long on a wet runway and went off the end. The pilots made the decision to continue with a doomed landing. Not the airport.

thenoflyzone Jan 5, 2020 7:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by q12 (Post 8791051)
The airport doesn't land the plane the pilot does. Stop bashing the Halifax airport for incompetent pilots.

I listened to the ATC feed and the tower told them planes were landing on the long runway 05 with a NNE wind. No idea why the Westjet pilots would choose runway 14 when they were told the conditions by the Tower in YHZ.

It baffles me as well why they chose rwy 14. But, with every incident, there is a chance of a lawsuit, and whether they were at fault or not, YHZ’s insurance is going up. At one point, they will need to do something about it.

q12 Jan 5, 2020 7:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J81 (Post 8791056)
The first one was a departure off the other runway ( rwy 24 ) when the crew departed from the wrong taxiway and did not use all of the available runway for takeoff. 100% pilot error. The “hard landing” was at the opposite end of rwy 24 which was 10500ft when that happened. Again it was pilot error as well as an Air Canada SOP that caused that and not the airport. The 747 that went off the end of 15 last fall touched down long on a wet runway and went off the end. The pilots made the decision to continue with a doomed landing. Not the airport.

Agree completely.

MonctonRad Jan 5, 2020 7:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by q12 (Post 8791051)
The airport doesn't land the plane the pilot does. Stop bashing the Halifax airport for incompetent pilots.

So, why are pilots more "incompetent" when landing at YHZ than at other airports????

There must be something about the conditions at this airport that predisposes to this recurrent problem.

I'm sure you agree there would be no harm in conducting an inquiry into this situation.

J81 Jan 5, 2020 7:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8791062)
It baffles me as well why they chose rwy 14. But, with every incident, there is a chance of a lawsuit, and whether they were at fault or not, YHZ’s insurance is going up. At one point, they will need to do something about it.

I am also baffled. If the winds were NNE then i have no idea why 14 would even have been an option. Im not sure how stiff the winds were but with the weather there today 14 should not have been an option.

Do you think the uptick in these kinds of incidents is directly related to the experience level of pilots these days? Once upon a time you couldnt sniff the right seat of a jet with less than 3000hrs and nowadays the requirements for some airlines are half that or less. Personally i believe there is a direct correlation.

Heres an interesting fact. The longest runway at Chicago’s Midway airport is 6500ft and it handles over 5 times the passengers as YHZ. Chicago has some pretty gnarly weather just like YHZ. They dont call it the windy city for nothing.

J81 Jan 5, 2020 7:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 8791071)
So, why are pilots more "incompetent" when landing at YHZ than at other airports????

There must be something about the conditions at this airport that predisposes to this recurrent problem.

I'm sure you agree there would be no harm in conducting an inquiry into this situation.

Its not just YHZ tho. Its happening more across the aviation world. The last one at YQM was 2010. There have been numerous off runway adventures just in Canada over the last 10 years. I personally think its a lack of experience but thats just my opinion.

q12 Jan 5, 2020 7:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 8791071)
So, why are pilots more "incompetent" when landing at YHZ than at other airports????

There must be something about the conditions at this airport that predisposes to this recurrent problem.

I'm sure you agree there would be no harm in conducting an inquiry into this situation.

Moncton's airport has had recent problems too. This incident can be blamed on the Moncton airport for not clearing snow back adequately enough for a 747.

MonctonRad Jan 5, 2020 7:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by q12 (Post 8791080)
Moncton's airport has had recent problems too. This incident can be blamed on the Moncton airport for not clearing snow back adequately enough for a 747.

Not quite the same thing as an aircraft leaving the runway. This incident occurred during taxiing and there were never any lives at risk.

It was certainly an operational error on the part of the airport though, and a lawsuit was filed.

Marty_Mcfly Jan 5, 2020 7:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J81 (Post 8791072)
I am also baffled. If the winds were NNE then i have no idea why 14 would even have been an option. Im not sure how stiff the winds were but with the weather there today 14 should not have been an option.

Do you think the uptick in these kinds of incidents is directly related to the experience level of pilots these days? Once upon a time you couldnt sniff the right seat of a jet with less than 3000hrs and nowadays the requirements for some airlines are half that or less. Personally i believe there is a direct correlation.

Heres an interesting fact. The longest runway at Chicago’s Midway airport is 6500ft and it handles over 5 times the passengers as YHZ. Chicago has some pretty gnarly weather just like YHZ. They dont call it the windy city for nothing.

The only thing I can think of is that an ERJ 190 landed on 14 3 hours earlier. Of course, it doesn't take long for the weather to deteriorate and I think YHZ had accumulated about 9 cm of snow by the time the WJ plane landed. All other planes utilizing 05 were smaller Beechcrafts and Dash 8's. Not that is a good reason at all, if you think you can land 14 because another large plane did it later, when 05 would have been a better option, then I'm not sure. Why not utilize 05.

3 hours is a lot of time when it's snowing.

q12 Jan 5, 2020 7:53 PM

Air Canada flight 604 from Toronto played it safe and diverted to Montreal. It was scheduled ahead of Westjet 248.

https://i.postimg.cc/yxbTM2k4/604.png

J81 Jan 5, 2020 8:05 PM

The winds at YHZ at 1300 local time were 360 at 20knots gusting to 29. 35 minutes later they were 360 at 22knots gusting to 33. Due to the significant tailwind component this would result in a gain in ground speed of 17knots. That is just unacceptable. Landing with a tailwind like that on a clear sunny day with a dry runway is ok. But in that weather its just unacceptable and should never happen. If they had landed on 05 the wind would have resulted in a loss in ground speed of 14 knots for a net difference of 31knots. Thats about 60km/hr. Thats the difference in their touchdown speed not even taking into account the gusts.

someone123 Jan 5, 2020 8:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J81 (Post 8791076)
Its not just YHZ tho. Its happening more across the aviation world. The last one at YQM was 2010. There have been numerous off runway adventures just in Canada over the last 10 years. I personally think its a lack of experience but thats just my opinion.

You also need to account for how busy the airports are. YHZ gets over 6x the passengers that YQM does. When any given storm happens there are a lot more large passenger planes scheduled to land at YHZ so the potential for accidents and diversions or cancellations is higher.


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