SkyscraperPage Forum

SkyscraperPage Forum (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php)
-   Canada (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18)
-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

SteelTown Sep 11, 2017 7:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 7918723)
Haven't checked it for a while, but seems like they removed the "NewLeaf" brand from the website completely?

NewLeaf was basically renting Flair's airplanes. Eventually, about four or five months ago Flair purchased NewLeaf, thus Flair Airlines.

esquire Sep 11, 2017 7:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkahHigh (Post 7918724)
Good luck getting people from TO driving to Hamilton to save a hundred bucks.

It's going to be pretty tough sledding for them by the looks of things. Unless the flights to and from Halifax are timed perfectly for connections coming from Western Canada, it looks like this is basically a strictly point to point operation. So you have to wonder, how much demand is there to fly to Hamilton or Waterloo? Can it actually sustain an airline?

I wonder if it wouldn't have made more sense to do the Hamilton-Waterloo to sun destination part of the network first, such that once domestic routes started you'd have a reason for people to feed into the hubs. Right now the routes will be relying on three groups of people:

1) Those in Western Canada who need to actually be in Hamilton, Waterloo or some other place south of the GTA
2) Niagara Falls vacationers
3) Very price sensitive travellers who will use YHM to get into Toronto.

I don't think the market for any of those three categories is all that huge.

wave46 Sep 11, 2017 7:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 7918723)

Other ULCC news today, Flair Airlines (formerly NewLeaf) announces today that they plan to start:

7x weekly YEG-YYZ

Effective Dec 15

http://globalnews.ca/news/3734355/fl...-transfer-hub/

Well, that was a quick shift back to YYZ. I guess the advantages of running out of Pearson outweigh the costs imposed.

I'm guessing they'll be operating out of T3 or maybe IFT? Any insights?

wave46 Sep 11, 2017 7:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7918748)
It's going to be pretty tough sledding for them by the looks of things. Unless the flights to and from Halifax are timed perfectly for connections coming from Western Canada, it looks like this is basically a strictly point to point operation. So you have to wonder, how much demand is there to fly to Hamilton or Waterloo? Can it actually sustain an airline?

I wonder if it wouldn't have made more sense to do the Hamilton-Waterloo to sun destination part of the network first, such that once domestic routes started you'd have a reason for people to feed into the hubs. Right now the routes will be relying on three groups of people:

1) Those in Western Canada who need to actually be in Hamilton, Waterloo or some other place south of the GTA
2) Niagara Falls vacationers
3) Very price sensitive travellers who will use YHM to get into Toronto.

I don't think the market for any of those three categories is all that huge.

The main idea behind Hamilton is to access the Toronto market at a lower cost than Pearson. I think the other categories of people are much, much smaller.

However, it seems for all the hype, most airlines end up shifting to Pearson after the fact - I guess the high costs there don't outweigh the advantages. Flair is the latest to do so - they're now running YEG-YYZ.

If Pearson gets saturated or costs become too much to bear, maybe Hamilton will have its day? Pearson hits capacity at 50 million passengers a year, so they're not far off that point now. Then again, with all the ULCC startups, I expect a few to fail, or a limit to the growth in air travel.

It seems like Hamilton's day is always a few years into the future.

GlassCity Sep 11, 2017 7:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7918748)
It's going to be pretty tough sledding for them by the looks of things. Unless the flights to and from Halifax are timed perfectly for connections coming from Western Canada, it looks like this is basically a strictly point to point operation. So you have to wonder, how much demand is there to fly to Hamilton or Waterloo? Can it actually sustain an airline?

I wonder if it wouldn't have made more sense to do the Hamilton-Waterloo to sun destination part of the network first, such that once domestic routes started you'd have a reason for people to feed into the hubs. Right now the routes will be relying on three groups of people:

1) Those in Western Canada who need to actually be in Hamilton, Waterloo or some other place south of the GTA
2) Niagara Falls vacationers
3) Very price sensitive travellers who will use YHM to get into Toronto.

I don't think the market for any of those three categories is all that huge.

Yeah, NewLeaf's (or I guess Flair's now) approach seems much more logical. Why not stop in Calgary or Winnipeg on the way to Toronto from Vancouver and allow for actual connections? Obviously this would add time but for the price-sensitive traveller, it's just part of the deal. Just being a massive Toronto feeder doesn't make all that much sense, especially when Munro has such poor transit connections to Toronto.

esquire Sep 11, 2017 8:41 PM

^ The hassle and expense of going from YHM to Toronto is so great that surely it must offset much of the savings on airfare.

For instance, I can fly YWG-YYZ most days for $340 all in. Once I get to YYZ, it's a $25 round trip on UP Express. 25 minutes.

For YHM, the return fare is $280. But then I have to pay either $120 each way to get to downtown Toronto by Hamilton airport shuttle, or deal with figuring out public transportation to get on the GO bus to Toronto. Probably well over an hour from airport to Union Station. It's a no brainer.

wave46 Sep 11, 2017 8:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7918862)
^ The hassle and expense of going from YHM to Toronto is so great that surely it must offset much of the savings on airfare.

For instance, I can fly YWG-YYZ most days for $340 all in. Once I get to YYZ, it's a $25 round trip on UP Express. 25 minutes.

For YHM, the return fare is $280. But then I have to pay either $120 each way to get to downtown Toronto by Hamilton airport shuttle, or deal with figuring out public transportation to get on the GO bus to Toronto. Probably well over an hour from airport to Union Station. It's a no brainer.

It comes down to situation, really.

Using Westjet on Google flights and Calgary as the destination (Oct 18-25):

You can save close to $130 if you fly out of Hamilton to Calgary versus Pearson. Considering the cheaper parking, it might work out if you're from Southern Ontario.

The knock being that there's not much choice in flights as compared to Pearson and you're more likely to find a better deal at YYZ for a last minute booking.

GlassCity Sep 11, 2017 9:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7918862)
^ The hassle and expense of going from YHM to Toronto is so great that surely it must offset much of the savings on airfare.

For instance, I can fly YWG-YYZ most days for $340 all in. Once I get to YYZ, it's a $25 round trip on UP Express. 25 minutes.

For YHM, the return fare is $280. But then I have to pay either $120 each way to get to downtown Toronto by Hamilton airport shuttle, or deal with figuring out public transportation to get on the GO bus to Toronto. Probably well over an hour from airport to Union Station. It's a no brainer.

But I mean regardless, if they've already chosen YHM as their Toronto airport, that shouldn't stop them from having flights between other cities. I can't see how an initially Toronto-only airline could compete with Flair, much less the big airlines.

esquire Sep 11, 2017 9:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 7918887)
It comes down to situation, really.

Using Westjet on Google flights and Calgary as the destination (Oct 18-25):

You can save close to $130 if you fly out of Hamilton to Calgary versus Pearson. Considering the cheaper parking, it might work out if you're from Southern Ontario.

The knock being that there's not much choice in flights as compared to Pearson and you're more likely to find a better deal at YYZ for a last minute booking.


You might save $130 but you're still faced with a potentially pricey and definitely time intensive trip to Toronto.

YHM makes perfect sense if you're going to Guelph, but for Toronto I can't see how it would be worth the hassle.

If GO or HSR started running a reasonably priced shuttle that took you direct from Toronto to YHM for no more than $20 each way, then that might change things a bit.

wave46 Sep 11, 2017 9:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7918894)
You save $130 but you're still faced with a potentially pricey and definitely time intensive trip to Toronto.

YHM makes perfect sense if you're going to Guelph, but for Toronto I can't see how it would be worth the hassle.

If you're renting a car or need to park at the airport, I can see the advantage.

If the trip is focused on downtown Toronto as opposed to the suburbs, definitely Pearson is the way to go.

Like I said, it is situational.

GlassCity Sep 11, 2017 9:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7918894)
You might save $130 but you're still faced with a potentially pricey and definitely time intensive trip to Toronto.

YHM makes perfect sense if you're going to Guelph, but for Toronto I can't see how it would be worth the hassle.

If GO or HSR started running a reasonably priced shuttle that took you direct from Toronto to YHM for no more than $20 each way, then that might change things a bit.

I don't know, I don't actually think there's anything wrong with picking YHM as the Toronto airport. Sure transit is a tough sell, but say for a student coming for 3 months, a 2 hour bus ride isn't much in the grand scheme of things, while saving close to $100. And if you have anyone that could pick you up, likely in the western GTA, it becomes pretty reasonable. I flew out of Abbotsford, a hour drive for me, to save $90. These secondary airports definitely pose challenges for many people, but for many others they can make sense.

Denscity Sep 11, 2017 9:42 PM

So Jetlines is based in Vancouver and Flair is based in Kelowna. Finally some BC action in the airline game. Altho Flair has been around for a bit as a company I think.

casper Sep 11, 2017 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denscity (Post 7918932)
So Jetlines is based in Vancouver and Flair is based in Kelowna. Finally some BC action in the airline game. Altho Flair has been around for a bit as a company I think.

Flair has been in business for over 12 years. They were doing a lot flying in and out the oil patch for Shell and others as well as contract flying for Air Transat and the Canadian military.

I not certain of the details but in the beginning I believe there was some kind of relationship to Kelowna flight craft the cargo operator. I am far more confident in Flair to be able to do something reasonable.

SteelTown Sep 11, 2017 10:13 PM

There's the HSR A-Line that comes every 30 minutes to the Airport, takes you Hamilton's GO Centre, then there's GO Bus to Toronto every 30 minutes. However, it's only during peak hours service. The City recently got funding so I could see the A-Line being all day service in the future.

Back when YHM was WestJet eastern hub the airport did provide shuttles for a small fee. If the passenger count climbs I can see the Airport running the shuttle service again.

sunsetmountainland Sep 11, 2017 10:20 PM

Quote:

Canada Jetlines tweaks strategy in lead-up to launch
Quote:

Canada Jetlines is set to add clarity to its rapidly evolving business plan and operational strategy in advance of its September 12 board meeting in Vancouver.The airline (TSX-Venture:JET), which has all of its executives based in Vancouver, plans to make a southern Ontario city what chairman Mark Morabito calls a “focus” city when Jetlines launches next June, but Morabito stressed that Vancouver will remain the company’s base.

“Vancouver is our corporate head office and it will stay that way,” he told Business in Vancouver.

Back in 2014, when Jetlines was in its infancy, its plan was to launch in the spring of 2015 with its main operational cities being Vancouver and Winnipeg.

Plenty of executive changes followed and the company last year vacated office space that it leased in the main terminal of Vancouver International Airport (YVR).

It still leases space at YVR’s south terminal but it is unclear if the airline will fly out of YVR when it launches operations.“We’ll serve Vancouver,” said CEO Stan Gadek, who started in June.

“When I say Vancouver, I’m saying the market. We haven’t made a decision yet with respect to YVR or Abbotsford [International Airport (YXX)].”

Gadek told BIV in late August that the airline would announce during the week of September 11 whether it will fly out of YVR or YXX. At the same time, he expects the airline to reveal its entire initial route map.

One thing that has not changed is that Jetlines still plans to become an ultra-low-cost carrier (ULCC).

That kind of airline offers the absolute lowest fares possible and then dings customers for privileges often taken for granted, such as a fee for cabin baggage, a fee for using a credit card to book a flight or a fee to select a seat.

Gadek expects Jetlines to launch on June 1, 2018, with two leased 737-800 planes. Operations will then ramp up to 12 of those same planes within two years, he said.

The reason that Gadek plans to launch with a mere two planes is because Transport Canada has a financial stress test that it applies to all new airlines. Operators who launch airlines must have cash, or access to cash through lines of credit, equal to 90 days of operating expenses, assuming no revenue at all, he said.

So if the airline had more planes at the start, Transport Canada would require that it be more heavily capitalized.

Once Jetlines has met the threshold of flying for 90 days, Transport Canada’s capitalization restriction is removed.

As for staff, Gadek does not foresee any pilots or flight attendants being based in B.C. All of those workers will instead be based in the southern Ontario “focus city” that he expects will be named the week of September 11.

Jetlines’ planes will all be based in that city overnight and fly to other parts of Canada during the day before returning at night, he said.

In the winter, flights will head south, to the U.S. and Mexico, he added.

The most likely cities in southern Ontario to be Jetlines’ focus city are Kitchener and Hamilton, and Gadek said that it is possible that Jetlines will fly to both of those cities within a year or two.

Ticketing agents, baggage handlers and refueling technicians at either YVR or YXX – whichever Metro Vancouver airport the airline chooses – will all be outsourced, he added.

“We’re going to outsource to the greatest extent possible,” he said, before stressing that his overriding goal is to minimize expenses.

Gadek is a past CEO of Sun Country Airlines, where he first steered the airline into Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and then increased revenue and reduced costs, leading to profitability.

Sun Country Airlines, however, was not an ultra-low-cost carrier (ULCC) when Gadek was at the helm. New executives at the carrier only recently announced plans to transform Sun Country into an ULCC.

Jetlines is still seeking capital. Gadek said that sometime shortly after next week’s board meeting, the airline will open a virtual data room where potential investors who sign a confidentiality document will get to look at the airline’s full business plan.

Former Jetlines vice-president John Korenic, who is now an adjunct professor at the University of British Columbia and teaches a fourth-year commerce course on airline transportation, told BIV that he believes there is a huge market in Canada for an ULCC.

“Airline fares are high in Canada, no doubt about it,” he said.

“I think there’s a need for a ULCC here. It’s a good model as long as you follow a ULCC model and you focus on the principles of a ULCC and cut costs. When you look at Australia and Europe and the U.S., I think you can make a pretty good case for a ULCC.”

In addition to Jetlines, WestJet Airlines Ltd. (TSX:WJA) also has plans to launch an ULCC next summer with that division of the company operating under a new yet-to-be-named brand.
https://www.biv.com/article/2017/9/c...y-lead-launch/

nname Sep 11, 2017 11:28 PM

I hope they pick YVR... YXX is just extremely inconvenience unless you drive there or have someone to drop-off and pick-up. Transit is pretty much non-existent (1 bus a day, and need 4 transfers and 3 separate fares from my place), and the airport shuttle bus cost almost as much as taxi. Even though I live closer to YXX than to YVR, tried there once, and will probably not going back there again. For those passenger wanting to travel from Vancouver to Toronto, going to/from YHM/YKF is bad enough, imagine having to go to YXX from the west end too.

I have a couple of friends who are waiting for direct YKF-YVR for years. They felt the current option of transferring at YYC is just wasting their time and they'd rather take a taxi from Waterloo to Pearson... There's no way they would even bother with the flight if it is going to fly out of YXX...

hollywoodcory Sep 12, 2017 2:55 PM

AC has extended 777 service on YYC-FRA until end of October now including one week of 77W. :)

Now operated as a B77L until 17OCT17 instead of a B789 and then switches to a B77W until 28OCT17, before switching to the B789 the next day.

thenoflyzone Sep 12, 2017 3:07 PM

Well, still early, but it seems like the Canada-Ireland route was nothing more than this....

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/...rvice-changes/

Quote:

Air Canada in winter 2017/18 is adjusting Toronto – Dublin route, as service moves to mainline operation, replacing current rouge 767 service. This adjustment was reflected earlier this year. From 30OCT17, Airbus A330-300 aircraft will operate this route 4 times a week during winter season (6 weekly 13DEC17 – 03JAN18 from YYZ, 5 weekly 03MAR18 – 30APR18), daily in summer season from 01MAY18.

The following schedule is effective 05NOV17 – 12DEC17.

AC842 YYZ2055 – 0825+1DUB 333 x136
AC843 DUB1005 – 1245YYZ 333 x247
Some more Rouge 767s are being freed in the schedules. Will be interesting to see the developments in the next few weeks.

jmt18325 Sep 12, 2017 10:35 PM

I wonder if this mean new aircraft or expansion for Rouge?

http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases...644034743.html

thenoflyzone Sep 13, 2017 1:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmt18325 (Post 7920050)
I wonder if this mean new aircraft or expansion for Rouge?

http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases...644034743.html

Sounds like Rouge will go above 50 aircraft to me.........


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:50 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.