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eemy Dec 29, 2014 12:19 AM

I guess the thing I'm taking away from the overall discussion here and elsewhere is that if the UPX can't provide an express trip from the airport to every major point in the city for under $10, it's basically a failure.

giallo Dec 29, 2014 12:54 AM

What business traveler or tourist is going to walk to his meeting or take the TTC with luggage to a hotel, especially if they're unfamiliar with the city? They will take a taxi from the UPX downtown station adding to an already extreme price.

I travel a fair amount, and $27 one-way for a tourist/business traveler is obscene. Even $19 one-way if you have that card you guys keep talking about in defense of the price is still ridiculously expensive. Sure, it's cheaper than taking an already expensive taxi (if you're just one person), but compared to the rest of the world's big cities with airporter trains, Toronto's is the most expensive I've seen by a country mile.

Tokyo from Narita is far cheaper. Tokyo! And it's like an hour away.

I'm not sure why you guys from Toronto are ok with this. I'd be pissed.


Quote:

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver (Post 6857505)
The Hong Kong Airport Express also makes stops and costs about the same as the UPX, so there's precedent for a (mostly) express airport train at that price point.

The HK airport train is 160HKD for a round trip or $23CAN. So it's four dollars less for a round trip ticket compared to what you get for a one-way trip on TO's UPX.

In Shanghai, I can take the Maglev (the world's fastest train) to the airport in 7 minutes with a top speed of 431km/h. The cost of a return ticket? 80rmb/$15CAN

1overcosc Dec 29, 2014 2:06 AM

The price was calculated to yield maximum revenue, not maximum ridership. Its intended to provide net profit for Metrolinx, not just farebox recovery. This is important as Metrolinx's operating budget is going to be stressed, in the short and medium term, by the need to expand two-way all day GO services.

caltrane74 Dec 29, 2014 3:20 AM

I don't have a problem with Metrolinx making money off this thing.

Most of the time people complain when the government wastes money, here we have a government agency actively making us money and we are whining. If the thing doesn't make money, they will lower the price.

WhipperSnapper Dec 29, 2014 4:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by begratto (Post 6857805)
Well not everyone has meetings a block or two from Union.

No one is saying that either. It doesn't change the fact that Union is right on top of tens of millions of square feet of class A space and walking is this quickest route.

WhipperSnapper Dec 29, 2014 4:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by begratto (Post 6858012)
Ok then, let's make a comparison: how many of you who travel to Montreal for business use the $10 747 Trudeau Airport / City Centre express bus?

It takes the same time as a taxi to get to the city centre, passes every 5-6 minutes, uses reserved bus lanes (even on the autoroute), costs much less, drops you off within a block or two of 80% of the downtown buildings. Yet none of my Toronto colleagues/business contacts have ever used it to get to my office: they all use a cab between Trudeau airport and downtown. The only advantage of taxis on that route is the door-to-door service, i.e. not having to figure out your way in a city you are not necessarily familiar with.

I do, however, use it quite frequently, but only because it is convenient from where I live - almost as fast as the taxi ride, and because the fare is covered by my monthly transit pass. As a business traveller from another city, I'm not sure I'd use it either. Most of the people I see on this bus are leisure travellers who want to save the extra $30 that it would cost to use a taxi, or airport employees. At $29 a ride, I don't think it would be very crowded...

You're talking about a bus.

No one said oil exec either. Talk about an unnecessary component for most meetings.

WhipperSnapper Dec 29, 2014 4:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by giallo (Post 6858065)
What business traveler or tourist is going to walk to his meeting or take the TTC with luggage to a hotel, especially if they're unfamiliar with the city? They will take a taxi from the UPX downtown station adding to an already extreme price.

I travel a fair amount, and $27 one-way for a tourist/business traveler is obscene. Even $19 one-way if you have that card you guys keep talking about in defense of the price is still ridiculously expensive. Sure, it's cheaper than taking an already expensive taxi (if you're just one person), but compared to the rest of the world's big cities with airporter trains, Toronto's is the most expensive I've seen by a country mile.

Tokyo from Narita is far cheaper. Tokyo! And it's like an hour away.

I'm not sure why you guys from Toronto are ok with this. I'd be pissed.




The HK airport train is 160HKD for a round trip or $23CAN. So it's four dollars less for a round trip ticket compared to what you get for a one-way trip on TO's UPX.

In Shanghai, I can take the Maglev (the world's fastest train) to the airport in 7 minutes with a top speed of 431km/h. The cost of a return ticket? 80rmb/$15CAN

What's your point? I think we are all fully aware that things can be damn expensive in Toronto. That doesn't change the fact that the UPX is a cheaper, more reliable service for travellers from Pearson heading to the CBD.

WhipperSnapper Dec 29, 2014 5:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse (Post 6857974)
You guys sit around speculating about the business travelers who'd be using the service and then when one actually contributes a response you tell him how silly he is for not thinking the way you feel he should? You guys aren't going to be there to talk every business person into walking from the station to their meeting and explain to them how silly they are if they don't. I'd suggest that you simply value the info he provided and accept that people don't always think and do what you feel is most appropriate.

Get off your high horse. He can choose any form of travel he likes. The notion that only Torontonians would walk from the station is patently false. Just spend some time in the PATH system.

giallo Dec 29, 2014 5:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper (Post 6858176)
What's your point? I think we are all fully aware that things can be damn expensive in Toronto. That doesn't change the fact that the UPX is a cheaper, more reliable service for travellers from Pearson heading to the CBD.

I don't really have a point, it's more of an observation.

Based on this thread, my observation would be that the UPX is extremely (possibly needlessly) expensive, and SSP Toronto members are happy paying exorbitant amounts for a similar service that is much cheaper in more expensive cities. So happy in fact, they get defensive about it.

WhipperSnapper Dec 29, 2014 5:18 AM

Not defensive. It's just not applicable if fares are more heavily subsidized in other cities. What matters is the price compared to other modes in Toronto in which it is quite competitive for the service you get.

caltrane74 Dec 29, 2014 5:21 AM

For 2 people which is how most people travel, the UPX is cheaper than a cab. 38 bux to 65 bux for a cab.

I don't see what the problem is, too expensive then ride the TTC Airport Express for 3 bux.

jmt18325 Dec 29, 2014 5:23 AM

I thought a cab was 52.

giallo Dec 29, 2014 5:25 AM

If the people of Toronto don't have a problem with the pricing, then there isn't a problem. I'm just offering my observation as someone who's outside of the Toronto bubble.

caltrane74 Dec 29, 2014 5:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmt18325 (Post 6858188)
I thought a cab was 52.

Depends on where you are in the city, from downtown you're looking at 65 dollars, (depending on whether you get the cab or airport limo) the closer you are to the airport the cheaper the fare.

jmt18325 Dec 29, 2014 5:31 AM

In April I went from Downtown to Pearson. The flat rate was 52 then.

caltrane74 Dec 29, 2014 5:35 AM

Airport Limo is 65.

Cab is 55 plus tip

Nouvellecosse Dec 29, 2014 5:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper (Post 6858181)
Get off your high horse. He can choose any form of travel he likes. The notion that only Torontonians would walk from the station is patently false. Just spend some time in the PATH system.

No one's on a high horse; some of you are just being irrational in the way you're reacting to someone because they're saying something you'd rather not hear. He never made any claims about the travel patterns of anyone else but himself - it was other people like yourself who fancy themselves as mind readers regarding the larger business traveling public. But it's always possible to be wrong when it comes to speculating about third parties. Yet he's an actual out-of-towner who visits for business so regardless of how similar or different he is from other such people, you have the perspective of one such person at your disposal.

losername Dec 29, 2014 1:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew (Post 6857615)
I was going to say that. Most will walk or hop on the ttc for a short trip.

What, will all those bags that make riding the Canada Line so cumbersome for you? Surely hopping on any of the dwnt streetcar lines with those bags would be much easier no? or walking 6-10 blocks with them.

hipster duck Dec 29, 2014 4:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse (Post 6858199)
No one's on a high horse; some of you are just being irrational in the way you're reacting to someone because they're saying something you'd rather not hear. He never made any claims about the travel patterns of anyone else but himself - it was other people like yourself who fancy themselves as mind readers regarding the larger business traveling public. But it's always possible to be wrong when it comes to speculating about third parties. Yet he's an actual out-of-towner who visits for business so regardless of how similar or different he is from other such people, you have the perspective of one such person at your disposal.

In order to understand why some Torontonians are very defensive of the fares, you have to understand the context.

For years, the fare of the Union Pearson Express was not revealed and many speculated - from offhand remarks - that it would be exorbitant; somewhere north of $30. The original proposal was called "Blue 22" because it was supposed to take 22 minutes and cost $22. That was over ten years ago, so people basically thought that that was the lowest the price could ever be and, because of inflation, it was almost certainly more.

Much to the surprise of many, the prices were revealed this past month to be quite reasonable: $19 if you have a Smart Card (which is an incentive to ride more public transit when you get to your destination), $10 for airport workers. Even the $27 fare for people who don't buy and use a Smart Card is somewhat reasonable for your average business traveler.

Despite this revelation, a lot of Torontonians still took to newspaper message boards to moan about how this was some sort of luxury service and how the prices were unreasonable because they weren't the same as basic public transit, etc. It grew very tiresome. Lost in all this rhetoric was a realization that the upgraded rail corridor won't just be used by the airport rail link, but is necessary for future public transit improvements along the corridor. Also lost in all the mud-slinging was the fact that the existing public transit connections to the airport aren't getting axed; in fact, they are getting upgraded (the TTC bus will get a new branding, its own line on the subway map, and luggage racks). Finally, as Caltrane mentioned, the price isn't set in stone. If it isn't profitable, the private company that runs this service can always lower the fare or tinker with incentives. Suggesting that the service will be of limited use because people with bags still have to get to their final destination is a moot point. No train will do that for you. That hasn't prevented rail links in other cities from being profitable and well used.

This isn't a case of Torontonians slavishly defending a project because it happens to be in Toronto. In fact, many of the forumers who are defending this project were harshly critical of the price of UPx up until 3 weeks ago when the actual fares were revealed. In light of this, I think most of the Toronto forumers here are actually being quite rational about this.

The_Architect Dec 29, 2014 4:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by giallo (Post 6858065)
but compared to the rest of the world's big cities with airporter trains, Toronto's is the most expensive I've seen by a country mile.

Never been to London?


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