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maccoinnich Jun 13, 2016 12:17 AM

So, when presented with numbers your response is that you don't believe them. Difficult to argue with that....

2oh1 Jun 13, 2016 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maccoinnich (Post 7472242)
So, when presented with numbers your response is that you don't believe them. Difficult to argue with that....

It's hard to believe numbers without attribution. Isn't that more wise than being a sucker who believes anything that supports his views? C'mon now. Here's a perfect example: part of justifying it as a potential track & field venue is based on being able to use it to attract cycling races even though, and I quote, "the track size would not meet international standards for sanctioned races, making it unclear how many ticketed events might be held."

maccoinnich Jun 13, 2016 1:06 AM

Yes, and that's reflected in the financials for that option. Although the report doesn't make recommendations for which option should be chosen, it's clear that the "Dynamic Floor/Indoor Track" isn't a good option. Stop fighting straw men.

2oh1 Jun 13, 2016 1:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maccoinnich (Post 7472280)
Yes, and that's reflected in the financials for that option. Although the report doesn't make recommendations for which option should be chosen, it's clear that the "Dynamic Floor/Indoor Track" isn't a good option. Stop fighting straw men.

I can't help noticing you picked one comment from my rather lengthy post as if it invalidates everything I said... and you then say "Stop fighting straw men." ...?

Let's try this again with quotes from the report.

Quote:

"there appears to be demand in the local market for an updated flexible venue with 3,000-8,000 seats. While expensive, renovating the VMC will cost much less than building a new facility of this size..."
You're not curious about how many of those events are currently being held at Moda Center or elsewhere in Portland? Well, I am. A ton of money may be spent to take revenue away from one venue to give it to another.


Quote:

"It’s also worth noting that the estimated cumulative economic impact associated with these options is $2.1 billion over an expected 30-year span for the Tenant/User Enhancements and $3.5 billion for Strategic Market Enhancements over the expected 40-year span."
As they'd say at wikipedia... CITATION NEEDED. I'm not saying it's not true. I'm saying, there must be a giant addendum to the report where they explain and prove that number. Offer proof and I'm definitely interested.


Quote:

"Despite its condition and lack of amenities, the VMC still sees consistent use and has a diverse event mix including sporting events (e.g., Portland Winterhawks and several Oregon School Activities Association championships), concerts, shows (e.g., Disney and Cirque de Soleil in 2015, Fright Town for last 10 years), conventions (e.g., Craft Brewers Convention reception in 2015), small and large meetings, and civic events (e.g., regional high school and community college graduations and the Rose Festival Grand Floral Parade)."
Again, I would challenge them to provide a daily list of all events at Memorial Coliseum along with analysis of whether the venue's existence and costs are justified based on how it's actually used. Could those events be held elsewhere? SHOULD those events be held elsewhere? And if these events are so important for the MC, how many of them would be lost with each of the options listed in the report? In some cases, most if not all. In other cases, it's assumed those current events would continue, but that seems like false analysis to me since renovations would increase costs and change the venue itself, potentially making it unusable by those events (granted, the assumption is they'd be replaced by others, but still...).


Quote:

"None of the scenarios are able to produce a direct return on investment (ROI) for the needed capital investment. This is not an uncommon outcome for facilities of this nature. Nationally and locally, many, if not most, spectator facilities, performing arts venues, and exposition and convention centers have some component of public funding for either their capital investment or ongoing operations, or both."
The question is, does Portland NEED it? With so many other pressing needs (crumbling roads, lead in school water, air pollution, housing... among so many others ...is this the best use of money that we'd know a best case scenario shows we wouldn't get a return on investment for the needed capital? I'm not saying the answer isn't yes. I'm saying I want to know.

tworivers Jun 13, 2016 2:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PdX Farr (Post 7471656)
People with this mindset are exactly what is wrong with this city. There is no way this building as is, repurposed or not, will ever be a "centerpiece" of anything. Its a stadium. There is NOTHING SPECIAL about it anymore. Dream on in the past all you want. "It was so amaze in the 60's". Well guess what, its not the 60's anymore. this site can be a million other beneficial things, but staying in its current form, even if renovated or "repurposed", is not one of them.

Stadiums have been revolutionary for their time thorough out the years and have been replace for more revolutionary stadiums. Its called progression, not dwelling on the past.

This building is nothing more than a eyesore from the inside and out. The only people that don't agree with that are a very small minority mostly in the very small architectural community around here. They speak loud and look for cameras and push for getting this dump on national protected lists for personal reasons. There has yet to be a single good proposal to "repurpose" this place that will make it solvent.

:cheers: Wow, thanks for the kind words and intelligent, thought-provoking analysis. And welcome to the forum. We need more forumers who are data- and fact-averse, wouldn't know a logical fallacy if it slapped them in the face, and couldn't write themselves out of a paper bag.

[wakes up, realizes the 60's are over, removes full-body tie-dye outfit]

maccoinnich Jun 13, 2016 2:13 AM

I'm not going to bother going through your questions one by one, because they're almost all addressed in the study. Given that you claim to have read it, you should already know that. In particular, Part I and Part II of the Market Conditions Report go into a lot detail. For example: where are events currently held in the Portland? Pages 24 to 52 of the Market Conditions Report covers that. (And no, I'm not particularly worried about a 3,000 to 8,000 seat arena stealing all the business from a 20,500 seat arena). It's clear a lot of thought, analysis and consideration was put into this by professionals in the field. Will you be asking for the long form birth certificate next?

2oh1 Jun 13, 2016 2:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maccoinnich (Post 7472318)
Will you be asking for the long form birth certificate next?

Ooh, clever, and not at all rude.

I simply question the spending of millions - perhaps over a hundred million - on Memorial Coliseum when Portland has so many other needs. Of course, if you know of a wealthy benefactor who would like to offer up $150,000,000, my point about the expense becomes moot. But even then, I would still ask:

Is this the best use for that much money? ...nobody seems to want to address that question.

Is this the best use for the land the MC takes up? ...nobody seems to want to address that question either.

The study is already a year old. It's downright foolish to assume that if one of the options is chosen construction would begin in the near future or even in this decade. Costs are going to increase. Just look at how repairs for the Portland Building skyrocketed all the way up to $192 million (and growing). At what dollar figure would Portland be better off building a new venue somewhere else and opening up the MC's land for development, especially considering that doing so would help raise capital to pay for it?

I wish more people knew how to think big - not big as in budgets, but big, as in big picture. I still believe the Portland Building and the Courthouse should have been replaced in one large building, after which, the Portland Building should be sold to recoup some expenses, even if that means demolishing it to sell the land it's on. There has to be a better option than spending $192 MILLION to repair an awful building. Now, I realize it's unfair to compare an atrocity like the Portland Building to a beauty like the Memorial Coliseum, but the comparison makes sense financially. Costs are ballooning. At what point is it better to consider alternatives? After twenty plus years of searching for solutions for the MC, I can't believe more people aren't asking these questions.

I think questioning is wise, though I understand why those who love the MC prefer the rubber stamp of unquestioned approval.

babs Jun 13, 2016 5:18 AM

Both of you guys are both right and wrong.

The reason there are so many graduation and other events during late April, May and June at the Memorial Coliseum is that the Blazers are required by the NBA to leave many of the dates available in case the Blazers make it to the NBA finals. Every NBA arena has to deal with this requirement. The dates open up after they either fail to make the playoffs or get eliminate but that's too late to fill dates. There was a time when Portland graduations were held at Keller Auditorium. Not sure when it's not used for that anymore. Also keep in mind the new PSU arena is coming online soon. There's also the Chiles Center.

Fright Night is at the Coliseum events center because it's centrally located and the rent is cheap. It's a terrible space for most events and the Expo Center and Convention Center compete for that space.

A lot of the smaller, lightly attended events could also go to the Convention Center. They have the bleachers to easily set up a 3000-5000 seat arena in their halls. As for the Grand Floral Parade, notice that most of the seats inside were empty?

Without a pro or college sports team as a resident tenant, the business case to restoring the Coliseum as a sports arena is weak. I just don't see it.

Don't get me wrong, I think the glass box is a pretty cool building but I wish we'd expand the conversation to see what else we can do with the interior beyond a sports arena. We've got enough clever developers in town to figure out something new and exciting.

maccoinnich Jun 13, 2016 6:29 AM

Here is a chart of all the spectator venues I could think of in the Portland Metro Area, showing their maximum capacity:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...psfymtnywo.jpg

VMC is shown in green, with both its current capacity (12,888) and post renovation capacity (8,000). Post renovation it would probably have a lower capacity because of the installation wider seats, ADA access, hospitality suites etc.

The only venues with a similar capacity are Halls D and E of the Expo Center. However that only competes with VMC to a limited extent, as the report notes:

Quote:

The Expo Center is challenged by the lack of hotel rooms in the immediate area. As a result, the majority of events hosted at the venue are public events and consumer shows drawing primarily from the local area.
Excepting the Expo Center there is a pretty huge gap in venues between the 4-5,000 capacity venue and the 20,000 seat stadiums. So given that, do the two following assumptions make sense?

Firstly, the "Tenant and User Experience Enhancements" scenario:

Quote:

It is estimated that the VMC could host a total of 128 events and attract a total of 430,300 attendees on an annual basis under the Tenant and User Experience Enhancements scenario. A total of 12 additional events over Scenario 1 are estimated including four Winterhawks games, two concerts, two family shows and four other sporting events (OSAA basketball games).

These estimates include a 7.0 percent increase in Winterhawks attendance over Scenario 1 estimated levels due to an enhanced fan experience and more sponsorship and advertising opportunities to drive additional attendee demand. Other ticketed events with anticipated attendance increases include FrightTown, family shows, concerts, other sports and the Grand Floral Parade with various increases ranging from roughly 6 percent to 11 percent depending on the event.
Secondly, the "Strategic Market Enhancements" scenario:

Quote:

It is anticipated that the VMC could host a total of 133 events and attract 453,700 total attendees on an annual basis under the Strategic Market Enhancements scenario. These estimates include an additional four percent increase in Winterhawks attendance over Scenario 2 due to additional fan experience enhancements

A total of five (5) events over Scenario 2 are added including three concerts and two family shows.
So we're talking 12-17 additional events a year. Given that the building is the only comparable venue of its size, it's very possible to believe that there are that many shows every year that either aren't being held or are bypassing Portland entirely, due to lack of suitable facilities.

2oh1 Jun 13, 2016 7:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maccoinnich (Post 7472444)
So we're talking 12-17 additional events a year. Given that the building is the only comparable venue of its size, it's very possible to believe that there are that many shows every year that either aren't being held or are bypassing Portland entirely, due to lack of suitable facilities.

Now contrast that with the amount of money it will cost. How are 12 to 17 events for fewer than 8,000 people each (potentially far fewer) worth tens of millions of dollars in investments based on estimates that will be outdated by the time the project takes shape?

And what about the land? Look at how much prime central city land the MC sits on and consider the benefits redeveloping it could bring to the city.

maccoinnich Jun 13, 2016 7:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2oh1 (Post 7472455)
Now contrast that with the amount of money it will cost. How are 12 to 17 events for fewer than 8,000 people each (potentially far fewer) worth tens of millions of dollars in investments based on estimates that will be outdated by the time the project takes shape?

Cumulatively that results in tens of thousands more visitors a year, and the building going from an operating loss of $110,000 a year to an operating profit of $449,000 a year, with at least a 40 lifespan for the improvements. (Much of the increased profit comes from increasing the energy efficiency of the building, which comes with benefits other than just money.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2oh1 (Post 7472455)
And what about the land? Look at how much prime central city land the MC sits on and consider the benefits redeveloping it could bring to the city.

What about the land? That area is full of vacant or underused land. There's decades (at least) of development potential in the Lloyd District / Rose Quarter. Let's talk about building on the PPS Blanchard site or the Thunderbird site before we start talking about tearing down National Register listed buildings.

babs Jun 13, 2016 3:08 PM

There are two key things missing from your chart.

When the Moda Center curtains off the upper level, that reduces the facility's capacity by about 8000 seats to about 12,000 seats. The Moda Center's Theater of the Clouds configuration take the facility down to about 5000 seats.

One of the keys here is whether the Winterhawks are willing to sign a lease to move full time to a new Coliseum. They said they are but until there is a signed lease, it's all up in the air. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Blazers come up with a last minute deal to keep them at the Moda Center full time. It would be in their best interests to have as many dates as possible used at Moda. Without the Winterhawks, this is totally a no-go proposal.

BlazerBeav Jun 13, 2016 3:26 PM

In that vein, Portland has long been talked about as an expansion location for the NHL (the Moda was built with that in mind). Should that day ever come, that removes the Winterhawks from the picture, and then what?

mhays Jun 13, 2016 3:50 PM

I'll weigh in as an outsider.

The building looks ok but I'm mystified that it's called "historic."

It's easy to imagine that neighborhood growing quickly. It's by the MAX, the area is already improving, and the Pearl etc. are quickly filling up.

Guessing the operating profits don't count the cost of the renovation? So basically you pay $90 or $140 million or whatever then that's offset by a tiny amount. This doesn't count any reduction in profit at other venues that it might take events from.

If a convention center breaks even it's fine because it's about drawing visitors to hotel rooms. But the events at Moda sound more local. So most dollars it brings in are simply local money spent there instead of elsewhere. Economic impact studies tend to conveniently (some would say dishonestly) forget that fact. If it's worthwhile, it's more like the entertainment value.

I'm shocked by the seating list. A metro of Portland's size will usually have at least a major NCAA D1 university if not MLB, NFL, etc., and therefore it'll have at least one stadium that seats maybe 45,000 or more. Is there another case of a city Portland's size not having this?

Not that I'd recommend building one, unless it came with a pro team. Even with a cover, there's not a ton of stuff that needs a stadium otherwise.

Maybe if the Timbers build a larger stadium that could at least handle larger concerts.

maccoinnich Jun 13, 2016 7:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babs (Post 7472688)
There are two key things missing from your chart.

When the Moda Center curtains off the upper level, that reduces the facility's capacity by about 8000 seats to about 12,000 seats. The Moda Center's Theater of the Clouds configuration take the facility down to about 5000 seats.

I'm aware of that (which is why I said 'maximum capacity'). Indeed many of the venues in the chart have the ability to be configured for smaller audiences. Presently VMC doesn't have that capability, but could post-renovation.

2oh1 Jun 14, 2016 5:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maccoinnich (Post 7473022)
I'm aware of that (which is why I said 'maximum capacity'). Indeed many of the venues in the chart have the ability to be configured for smaller audiences. Presently VMC doesn't have that capability, but could post-renovation.

...but is it necessary?

All of these options (excluding demolition) are based on the desire to find a new use for the structure rather than asking if we need it and if the money and land could be better put to other uses.

The MC is gorgeous. But do we need it? Are we wasting time and resources on it? Your chart above seems to be proof that we don't need it, especially since the chart didn't include the proper capacity for the upcoming PSU Viking Pavilion (it's listed above in its current capacity rather than in its upcoming 5,000 seat capacity, probably because listing the current lower seating number of 3,000 instead of the upgrade to 5,000 helps support the cause for keeping the MC).

maccoinnich Jun 14, 2016 5:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2oh1 (Post 7473573)
Your chart above seems to be proof that we don't need it, especially since the chart didn't include the proper capacity for the upcoming PSU Viking Pavilion (it's listed above in its current capacity rather than in its upcoming 5,000 seat capacity, probably because listing the current lower seating number of 3,000 instead of the upgrade to 5,000 helps support the cause for keeping the MC).

Try harder. From the Final Findings and Decision by the Design Commission on the PSU Viking Pavilion:

Quote:

The eastern portion of the building will be reconstructed with a new multipurpose arena facing the South Park blocks with seating for up to approximately 3,400.

2oh1 Jun 14, 2016 7:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maccoinnich (Post 7473577)
Try harder.

There's no need to be rude. You're better than that. ou're obviously passionate about the MC, but you keep nitpicking details while ignoring the main points of the comments you're replying to. For example...

It's great that you love the MC. I too think it's gorgeous. But, do we need it? Is it the best use of the amount of the millions of dollars it will require?

AcmeGreg Jun 14, 2016 3:03 PM

It's great that you love the MC. I too think it's gorgeous. But, do we need it? Is it the best use of the amount of the millions of dollars it will require?[/QUOTE]

You answered your own question. If you believe it to be gorgeous why on earth would you want to tear it down? The notion that fiscal responsibility is somehow the end-all-be-all here is just maddening. Of course saving/rehabilitating this building is the best use of the millions that would be required. What type of cost-efficient mundanity do you imagine would replace it? We have far too few examples of great architecture in this city, and I for one would pay to keep it around for that reason alone.

58rhodes Jun 14, 2016 3:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcmeGreg (Post 7473783)
It's great that you love the MC. I too think it's gorgeous. But, do we need it? Is it the best use of the amount of the millions of dollars it will require?

You answered your own question. If you believe it to be gorgeous why on earth would you want to tear it down? The notion that fiscal responsibility is somehow the end-all-be-all here is just maddening. Of course saving/rehabilitating this building is the best use of the millions that would be required. What type of cost-efficient mundanity do you imagine would replace it? We have far too few examples of great architecture in this city, and I for one would pay to keep it around for that reason alone.[/QUOTE]
my thoughts too--if any body cares:cheers:

maccoinnich Jun 14, 2016 4:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2oh1 (Post 7473614)
There's no need to be rude. You're better than that. ou're obviously passionate about the MC, but you keep nitpicking details while ignoring the main points of the comments you're replying to. For example...

When you accuse me of manipulating data for the purpose of making my point, I don't think it's nitpicking to point out that, no, I didn't in fact do that.

babs Jun 14, 2016 4:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 58rhodes (Post 7473830)
You answered your own question. If you believe it to be gorgeous why on earth would you want to tear it down? The notion that fiscal responsibility is somehow the end-all-be-all here is just maddening. Of course saving/rehabilitating this building is the best use of the millions that would be required. What type of cost-efficient mundanity do you imagine would replace it? We have far too few examples of great architecture in this city, and I for one would pay to keep it around for that reason alone.

my thoughts too--if any body cares:cheers:[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't it be great to save the structure and repurpose it into something else? That's my issue here. It's life as a financially successful arena is over, and has been for over 20 years. If you rip out the internal arena, you could do something else with it. That's my frustration with the save the VMC crowd. They seem stuck on the "it can't be anything but an arena" mantra.

Look what Memphis did with their old arena:
www.basspro.com/pyramid

Not saying that it should turn in a Bass Pro Shop but I like the thought of doing something where it turns into something useful and the taxpayers aren't spending $150 million to turn it into an unneeded arena.

eric cantona Jun 14, 2016 6:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babs (Post 7473882)
my thoughts too--if any body cares:cheers:

"unneeded arena"

unneeded according to you.

I agree with the preservationists here. the report (by professionals!) tells me that IN ADDITION to preserving an historically important piece of architecture (shell AND bowl), it can be a useful part of our urban fabric and contribute financially to its continued existence. for me that's a win-win-win.

legacy projects, like many (most?) civic projects, traditionally do not pay for themselves. at least not monetarily. they do contribute a great deal to the soul of the City, and provide touchstones to our collective past. putting this in strictly monetized terms misses the point of it completely, in my view.

maccoinnich Jun 14, 2016 7:24 PM

And for those of you concerned about money, it's worth noting that any renovation that changes the use of the building will cost more than a renovation that maintains its use as an arena.

urbanlife Jun 14, 2016 8:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maccoinnich (Post 7474107)
And for those of you concerned about money, it's worth noting that any renovation that changes the use of the building will cost more than a renovation that maintains its use as an arena.

I think there is still a lot of use for it as an arena, though some upgrades to the facility would be nice. I like having it be the home to the Winterhawks, I always prefer watching them in a smaller arena than over at the Moda Center.

babs Jun 14, 2016 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maccoinnich (Post 7474107)
And for those of you concerned about money, it's worth noting that any renovation that changes the use of the building will cost more than a renovation that maintains its use as an arena.

Yet spending more to turn it into something else could have a return significantly higher.

babs Jun 14, 2016 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eric cantona (Post 7474066)
"unneeded arena"

unneeded according to you.

I agree with the preservationists here. the report (by professionals!) tells me that IN ADDITION to preserving an historically important piece of architecture (shell AND bowl), it can be a useful part of our urban fabric and contribute financially to its continued existence. for me that's a win-win-win.

legacy projects, like many (most?) civic projects, traditionally do not pay for themselves. at least not monetarily. they do contribute a great deal to the soul of the City, and provide touchstones to our collective past. putting this in strictly monetized terms misses the point of it completely, in my view.

It's an under used tombstone. I don't know why some of you are so resistant to looking at other uses for the building. In know many of you are creative people, the lack of creativity in finding new uses for this building is amazing. And I'm not even calling for demolition like so many others.

58rhodes Jun 14, 2016 11:47 PM

150 events per year--more than I thought

how many events does the average NFL stadium host a year?

65MAX Jun 15, 2016 1:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babs (Post 7474309)
It's an under used tombstone. I don't know why some of you are so resistant to looking at other uses for the building. In know many of you are creative people, the lack of creativity in finding new uses for this building is amazing. And I'm not even calling for demolition like so many others.

I don't think anybody objects to finding other uses for the VMC. There's no lack of options for creative reuse of the Coliseum. I've given multiple ideas of ways the building could be used other than as an arena. But there are higher costs incurred when converting it to other uses than there are keeping it as an arena. So the ROI would be a little riskier, and we all know how risk-averse the City is.

PacificNW Jun 15, 2016 1:57 AM

Portland is one of the major creative hubs of sneaker/outdoor gear companies in the U.S. Wouldn't it be great to have the likes of Nike, Addias, Columbia Sportwear, etc. step up and collaborate with some grand idea(s) for this venue? Come on, Mr. Knight, show Portland some more love..

innovativethinking Jun 15, 2016 6:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PacificNW (Post 7474532)
Portland is one of the major creative hubs of sneaker/outdoor gear companies in the U.S. Wouldn't it be great to have the likes of Nike, Addias, Columbia Sportwear, etc. step up and collaborate with some grand idea(s) for this venue? Come on, Mr. Knight, show Portland some more love..

That's actually not a bad idea. Or Nike just bankroll the whole thing on their own and make it a grand Nike museum of their history. It can become a tourist draw for Nike. Mercedes for example in Stuttgart has a similar concept..

BlazerBeav Jun 15, 2016 3:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innovativethinking (Post 7474695)
That's actually not a bad idea. Or Nike just bankroll the whole thing on their own and make it a grand Nike museum of their history. It can become a tourist draw for Nike. Mercedes for example in Stuttgart has a similar concept..

Jumptown was part of the redevelopment proposal years ago that would have built something along the lines of Kansas City's Power & Light district.

2oh1 Jun 16, 2016 7:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babs (Post 7474305)
Yet spending more to turn it into something else could have a return significantly higher.

THIS.

Again, I ask, do we need it? Is it the best use of the land? Is it the best way to encourage growth for the inner east side? Is it the best option for Portland in the decades to come? How much will it cost and would that money be more effectively used elsewhere?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlazerBeav (Post 7474980)
Jumptown was part of the redevelopment proposal years ago that would have built something along the lines of Kansas City's Power & Light district.

Yeah, I remember the renderings that went with Jumptown. Stunning. And probably entirely unrealistic (sadly).

I think it's funny how the same people who want to fight for this structure haven't blinked an eye at the fact that one of the proposals permanently eliminates the glass from "The Glass Palace." I think people are romanticizing the idea of it rather than the reality of it. Are people really, REALLY, fighting to save a sea of parking? Are people really passionate about saving a ghost town in such an amazing location? That's what the MC is. It's a sea of parking and a ghost town whenever events aren't in progress.

If a billionaire came along and decided to fund a massive underground parking structure beneath the MC, and maybe 20 stories of housing or a hotel above it, I'd be thrilled. But as a stand alone structure at that location, surrounded by a sea of asphalt with a much more modern arena next door and countless other venues around town which could fill the need... c'mon now.

58rhodes Jun 17, 2016 4:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2oh1 (Post 7476006)
THIS.

Again, I ask, do we need it? Is it the best use of the land? Is it the best way to encourage growth for the inner east side? Is it the best option for Portland in the decades to come? How much will it cost and would that money be more effectively used elsewhere?



Yeah, I remember the renderings that went with Jumptown. Stunning. And probably entirely unrealistic (sadly).

I think it's funny how the same people who want to fight for this structure haven't blinked an eye at the fact that one of the proposals permanently eliminates the glass from "The Glass Palace." I think people are romanticizing the idea of it rather than the reality of it. Are people really, REALLY, fighting to save a sea of parking? Are people really passionate about saving a ghost town in such an amazing location? That's what the MC is. It's a sea of parking and a ghost town whenever events aren't in progress.

If a billionaire came along and decided to fund a massive underground parking structure beneath the MC, and maybe 20 stories of housing or a hotel above it, I'd be thrilled. But as a stand alone structure at that location, surrounded by a sea of asphalt with a much more modern arena next door and countless other venues around town which could fill the need... c'mon now.

seriously--? theres a bunch of blank canvass over there that just sits

cailes Jun 17, 2016 4:39 AM

If we are talking about the real history of this area, wouldn't mowing down MC make more sense and turning that area back into residential?

maccoinnich Jun 18, 2016 7:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2oh1 (Post 7476006)
I think it's funny how the same people who want to fight for this structure haven't blinked an eye at the fact that one of the proposals permanently eliminates the glass from "The Glass Palace." I think people are romanticizing the idea of it rather than the reality of it. Are people really, REALLY, fighting to save a sea of parking? Are people really passionate about saving a ghost town in such an amazing location? That's what the MC is. It's a sea of parking and a ghost town whenever events aren't in progress.

Literally no one is fighting to save the sea of parking.

Also, no one (either posting in this thread, or that I've met in real life) supports the Open Air Arena option that would remove all the glass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2oh1 (Post 7476006)
If a billionaire came along and decided to fund a massive underground parking structure beneath the MC, and maybe 20 stories of housing or a hotel above it, I'd be thrilled. But as a stand alone structure at that location, surrounded by a sea of asphalt with a much more modern arena next door and countless other venues around town which could fill the need... c'mon now.

We've covered this. There aren't "countless" other venues around town with the same capacity.

58rhodes Jun 19, 2016 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cailes (Post 7477315)
If we are talking about the real history of this area, wouldn't mowing down MC make more sense and turning that area back into residential?

maybe but whos interested?

maccoinnich Jun 30, 2016 7:52 PM

Quote:

Will National Treasure Designation Save Portland’s Modernist Arena?

https://nextcity.org/images/made/Por...800_529_80.jpg

Earlier this month, the nonprofit National Trust for Historic Preservation named Portland’s Veterans Memorial Coliseum a National Treasure, a designation both local officials and supporters of the modernist arena hope will lead to a decision about the building’s future. Financed by an $8 million voter-approved bond and completed in 1960, the arena has suffered from deferred maintenance ever since.

Demolition has been threatened and avoided before, and in 2015 the Oregon city undertook an options study for the site. But the biggest threat to the arena’s future is the building itself: Its amenities are out of date, particularly compared to the new Moda Center next door, and a lack of ongoing care has imperiled even the signature design features that make it architecturally compelling. With the new designation, the National Trust will work with stakeholders to come up with a financially viable plan to keep the coliseum standing, one that will almost certainly include asking the taxpayers to open their wallets again.

...continues at Next City.

360Rich Jul 29, 2016 12:38 AM

New Video Replay Screens To Be Installed at VMC
 
New Video Replay Screens To Be Installed at VMC

http://whl.uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/...ed-730x556.jpg

The Portland Winterhawks, in conjunction with the City of Portland and Portland Arena Management (PAM), are excited to announce that new video replay screens are being installed in Veterans Memorial Coliseum in time for the upcoming 2016-17 season.

http://winterhawks.com/article/new-v...stalled-at-vmc

PacificNW Nov 1, 2016 8:59 PM

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...ml#incart_2box

Developers quietly pitch new vision for Veterans Memorial Coliseum

maccoinnich Mar 26, 2017 10:52 PM

From Ted Wheeler's State of the City address:

Quote:

I am particularly impressed with proposals that find creative ways to not only avoid gentrification and displacement, but actually reverse its most negative impacts by bringing back people into the community who were the most impacted by the original Rose Quarter Development. Let’s be the first city in the country to not only address the worst aspects of gentrification and displacement, but to actually reverse the trend.

Instead of each of these groups approaching me and my fellow commissioners to pitch their ideas one at a time, let’s begin a process in which everyone shows their cards, we involve the public, we discuss financing and we move forward with a strategy.

People have been discussing this site for decades. It’s time to get moving on a real plan. I believe we can get it done, and importantly for many of us, I believe we can preserve Memorial Coliseum in the process.

RainDog Mar 27, 2017 1:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Wheeler
I believe we can preserve Memorial Coliseum in the process.

Boo.

urbanlife Mar 27, 2017 1:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainDog (Post 7752649)
Boo.

I am gonna disagree with you on this one, I think it should be preserved.

innovativethinking Mar 27, 2017 3:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanlife (Post 7752655)
I am gonna disagree with you on this one, I think it should be preserved.


Why? That place is a dump

mmeade Mar 27, 2017 5:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innovativethinking (Post 7752720)
Why? That place is a dump

Many people would disagree with you.

It has potential to be much more than it is, and it would be a giant waste to get rid of it. As Portland continues to grow, it will be extremely difficult to replace it with a venue of a similar or greater size. Should we throw out the future of this arena just because the neighborhood has been historically underutilized?

There are significant issues with the building as it stands. Destruction of the Arena is not the only solution to the problem.

Derek Mar 27, 2017 5:42 PM

I feel like the MC needs to be saved only because it'll be a nice spot for a new arena when the Moda needs to be replaced. ;)

innovativethinking Mar 27, 2017 6:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek (Post 7753293)
I feel like the MC needs to be saved only because it'll be a nice spot for a new arena when the Moda needs to be replaced. ;)

Exactly. Save it for a spot when our beloved Blazers need a new place one day

innovativethinking Mar 27, 2017 6:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmeade (Post 7753254)
Many people would disagree with you.

It has potential to be much more than it is, and it would be a giant waste to get rid of it. As Portland continues to grow, it will be extremely difficult to replace it with a venue of a similar or greater size. Should we throw out the future of this arena just because the neighborhood has been historically underutilized?

There are significant issues with the building as it stands. Destruction of the Arena is not the only solution to the problem.

Many more people will disagree with you.


You obviously haven't been inside the structure. Or had to worry about how much it's going to cost to repair it and keep it open. I guess one person's treasure is another person's trash. The building is in horrible shape and even if repaired, is badly outdated. Theres studies after studies that have been done the kind of money that it will take just to fix all the things wrong with that ancient building and how much it will cost just to keep it operating.

And even if all that money is spent as the studies have said, the building will still be a financial loser, have too few rest rooms and a concourse way too cramped to handle even moderate sized crowds.

Sorry the cost of doing anything with it other than imploding it is way too steep. It's not a tourist attraction or a necessary venue in our city. It's a money pit with glass walls.
And it's about time this city finally comes to grips with that and uses the land for something that would bring value even profit to the city. A ballpark was a great idea but there are so many other choices a sports museum, a park, an entertainment district, condos. Whatever.

Just get rid of the aging money pit. If Yankee stadium can be destroyed and redeveloped. Candlestick park. Tiger stadium and all these other REAL national treasures what the heck is the Coliseum?

DMH Mar 27, 2017 8:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innovativethinking (Post 7753371)
Many more people will disagree with you.


You obviously haven't been inside the structure. Or had to worry about how much it's going to cost to repair it and keep it open. I guess one person's treasure is another person's trash. The building is in horrible shape and even if repaired, is badly outdated. Theres studies after studies that have been done the kind of money that it will take just to fix all the things wrong with that ancient building and how much it will cost just to keep it operating.

And even if all that money is spent as the studies have said, the building will still be a financial loser, have too few rest rooms and a concourse way too cramped to handle even moderate sized crowds.

Sorry the cost of doing anything with it other than imploding it is way too steep. It's not a tourist attraction or a necessary venue in our city. It's a money pit with glass walls.
And it's about time this city finally comes to grips with that and uses the land for something that would bring value even profit to the city. A ballpark was a great idea but there are so many other choices a sports museum, a park, an entertainment district, condos. Whatever.

Just get rid of the aging money pit. If Yankee stadium can be destroyed and redeveloped. Candlestick park. Tiger stadium and all these other REAL national treasures what the heck is the Coliseum?

I do not agree with you. Yes, I have been inside Memorial Coliseum during brainstorming sessions for its redevelopment. To best explain my opposition, I refer to the Friends of Memorial Coliseum website:

http://www.coliseumfriends.org/recom...ext-steps.html

mmeade Mar 27, 2017 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innovativethinking (Post 7753371)
You obviously haven't been inside the structure.

Oh I definitely have. I've seen basketball games, arena football games, all sorts of stuff. I really like the place. I don't argue that it needs work, only that it is shortsighted to throw the place in the trash.

We clearly have different opinions, and that's okay. I'll keep working to see it saved, and hopefully it will work out!


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