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-   -   The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228928)

Acajack Jun 30, 2019 1:07 AM

The CFL is seen as standing in the way of the holy grail of an NFL team in Toronto. So I can sorta understand a bit some people in the GTA encouraging the demise of the CFL.

It makes no sense though for people in other CFL cities as no CFL means no pro football for them.

Likely for Toronto too TBQH.

elly63 Jun 30, 2019 1:11 AM

^ Yes again, the GTA would have to bow to the altar of that mighty metropolis of... Buffalo :)

logan5 Jun 30, 2019 2:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8620024)
The CFL is seen as standing in the way of the holy grail of an NFL team in Toronto. So I can sorta understand a bit some people in the GTA encouraging the demise of the CFL.

It makes no sense though for people in other CFL cities as no CFL means no pro football for them.

Likely for Toronto too TBQH.

In a scenario where the CFL doesn't exist (god forbid), the NFL would have to seriously look at not only Toronto, but Montreal and Vancouver as well. Montreal is a big market. Using U.S. MSA measuring standards, Montreal is a 5 million + city, and Olympic Stadium is suitable for the NFL. Vancouver is 3 million (using U.S. standards). Plus Vancouver would have western Canada to draw from, let alone BC. BC PLace is a great venue, and if seating capacity is an issue, since the CFL field is so much bigger, you could add seating by excavating at field level and bring seating capacity to 60 000.

I'm not rooting for the demise of the CFL but I'm not a huge CFL fan and would love to see an NFL team here.

wave46 Jun 30, 2019 2:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logan5 (Post 8620074)
In a scenario where the CFL doesn't exist (god forbid), the NFL would have to seriously look at not only Toronto, but Montreal and Vancouver as well. Montreal is a big market. Using U.S. MSA measuring standards, Montreal is a 5 million + city, and Olympic Stadium is suitable for the NFL. Vancouver is 3 million (using U.S. standards). Plus Vancouver would have western Canada to draw from, let alone BC. BC PLace is a great venue, and if seating capacity is an issue, since the CFL field is so much bigger, you could add seating by excavating at field level and bring seating capacity to 60 000.

I'm not rooting for the demise of the CFL but I'm not a huge CFL fan and would love to see an NFL team here.

The billionaire owners (new NFL teams can't be owned by corporations) and the proximity of Toronto to Buffalo would be significant handicaps to the NFL in Canada.

I think Skydome might be a bit too small for an optimal NFL stadium, while Olympic Stadium in Montreal likely would not pass muster for anything other than a temporary venue. That would mean new venues which go for $800m-$1 billion US.

The headwinds against the NFL in Canada would be pretty strong. Not impossible, but strong.

elly63 Jun 30, 2019 2:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logan5 (Post 8620074)
In a scenario where the CFL doesn't exist (god forbid), the NFL would have to seriously look at not only Toronto, but Montreal and Vancouver as well. Montreal is a big market. Using U.S. MSA measuring standards, Montreal is a 5 million + city, and Olympic Stadium is suitable for the NFL. Vancouver is 3 million (using U.S. standards). Plus Vancouver would have western Canada to draw from, let alone BC. BC PLace is a great venue, and if seating capacity is an issue, since the CFL field is so much bigger, you could add seating by excavating at field level and bring seating capacity to 60 000.

I'm not rooting for the demise of the CFL but I'm not a huge CFL fan and would love to see an NFL team here.

There will never be NFL teams in Montreal or Vancouver and the stadiums are still too small and not really conducive to expansion. Even though capacities are decreasing you need the high end seats and for those markets (and Toronto) new stadiums.

You're looking at maybe two billion, stadium and purchase price. Very few have that kind of money to throw in and have to wait 20 years for a return. The teams making the real big money in the NFL are the ones that have been around since the beginning and not the new kids on the block who have just bought in.

Also most pro sports are contracting, many metrics are down, viewership, attendance. I wouldn't hold my breath, to the NFL, Toronto would be like an expansion to San Antonio.

Acajack Jun 30, 2019 2:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by logan5 (Post 8620074)
In a scenario where the CFL doesn't exist (god forbid), the NFL would have to seriously look at not only Toronto, but Montreal and Vancouver as well. Montreal is a big market. Using U.S. MSA measuring standards, Montreal is a 5 million + city, and Olympic Stadium is suitable for the NFL. Vancouver is 3 million (using U.S. standards). Plus Vancouver would have western Canada to draw from, let alone BC. BC PLace is a great venue, and if seating capacity is an issue, since the CFL field is so much bigger, you could add seating by excavating at field level and bring seating capacity to 60 000.

I'm not rooting for the demise of the CFL but I'm not a huge CFL fan and would love to see an NFL team here.

While I think all three cities would support NFL teams if they got them, actually getting one is a longshot due to shaky football support for both CFL and occasional NFL games. Not sure the NFL is big on leaps of faith.

elly63 Jun 30, 2019 2:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8620089)
Not sure the NFL is big on leaps of faith.

They ain't. Bills in Toronto killed the dream of some.

Djeffery Jun 30, 2019 2:23 AM

Forbes' NFL values places only Buffalo, Detroit, Cincinnati and Cleveland as sub-$2billion, and not by a lot. Even if the NFL was looking at expanding, they would set a fee of at least $2b (USD). I don't see a long list of rich Canadians spending that, not to mention the stadium (as mentioned)

esquire Jun 30, 2019 2:24 AM

At this point there is no way that the CFL is realistically an obstacle to the NFL coming to Toronto.

elly63 Jun 30, 2019 2:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 8620095)
At this point there is no way that the CFL is realistically an obstacle to the NFL coming to Toronto.

Sure they are, the NFL doesn't want the CFL to die. They are token competition that helps them avoid anti trust issues for one reason. If the NFL wanted to be in Toronto they have had ample time and opportunity to do so and have chosen not to, for whatever reason.

wave46 Jun 30, 2019 2:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8620099)
Sure they are, the NFL doesn't want the CFL to die. They are token competition that helps them avoid anti trust issues for one reason. If the NFL wanted to be in Toronto they have had ample time and opportunity to do so and have chosen not to, for whatever reason.

Major sports leagues have been exempted from anti-trust legislation.

esquire Jun 30, 2019 2:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8620099)
Sure they are, the NFL doesn't want the CFL to die. They are token competition that helps them avoid anti trust issues for one reason. If the NFL wanted to be in Toronto they have had ample time and opportunity to do so and have chosen not to, for whatever reason.

The NFL could put a team in Toronto and easily prop up the Argos. It wouldn't take that much to ensure that the team doesn't die.

There are several reasons why the NFL is unlikely to do that, but I would not say that the Argonauts are one of the major reasons as to why.

elly63 Jun 30, 2019 2:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery (Post 8620092)
Even if the NFL was looking at expanding, they would set a fee of at least $2b (USD). I don't see a long list of rich Canadians spending that, not to mention the stadium (as mentioned)

And having to wait 20 years for a return. Who knows where pro sports will be in 20 years. They could be playing to "studio audiences" of 20k and be airing on multi platforms or maybe salaries will fall with lesser TV revenues because that gravy train will likely slow.

elly63 Jun 30, 2019 2:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8620101)
Major sports leagues have been exempted from anti-trust legislation.

Yes, I know and the CFL used to be seen as an aid in that.

elly63 Jun 30, 2019 2:41 AM

Don't get me wrong about Toronto and its relationship to the NFL as I don't think it matters one way or another, but historically, for whatever reason, the NFL has wanted a strong CFL. They loaned the league money to save it 30? years back, they could have killed it off or let it die had they chosen to, but they did the opposite.

wave46 Jun 30, 2019 2:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8620108)
Yes, I know and the CFL used to be seen as an aid in that.

In the case of Toronto, I don't see why the NFL would be interested in any competition at all then. Why bother propping up a competing team, other than maybe the optics against killing it? Benign neglect seems to be the best option for the NFL vis-a-vis the CFL in Toronto.

I could see the NFL supporting the CFL as a 'grassroots' league in other parts of the country.

elly63 Jun 30, 2019 2:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8620113)
other than maybe the optics against killing it?

At one time that was an issue, I just don't know if some of those owners want to divvy up any more of the pie, there were some pretty dicy times in LA as well. Sports are changing, on many levels.

samne Jun 30, 2019 2:48 AM

Im a big NFL fan. I also have no interest in a team here in Toronto. Football is best viewed on tv. One of the biggest reasons a team in Toronto is irrelevant.

Another reason is that unlike the nba and basketball, football and the nfl has been established and popular for so long. Most fans have their allegiance to teams. Tough to win over new fans to a new team.

elly63 Jun 30, 2019 2:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samne (Post 8620119)
Football is best viewed on tv. One of the biggest reasons a team in Toronto is irrelevant.

When you've got people watching a bunch of Koreans (pardon my generalization) playing video games and that is considered sport the whole future of sports as entertainment is up for review.

As I said earlier, pro sports in a 20k "TV studio"

ScreamingViking Jun 30, 2019 9:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elly63 (Post 8620099)
Sure they are, the NFL doesn't want the CFL to die. They are token competition that helps them avoid anti trust issues for one reason. If the NFL wanted to be in Toronto they have had ample time and opportunity to do so and have chosen not to, for whatever reason.

I don't think it's competition. I think it's because:
1) The CFL has offered the only other legitimate pro opportunity for US college players, who may establish careers there and possibly find their NFL dream via that route.
2) There have been many in coaching and management who've "made their bones" in Canada and done well in NFL cities.

NFL doesn't and shouldn't care about competition.


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