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-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

zahav Dec 14, 2019 10:38 PM

WS will likely not pursue many medium sized destinations like YXU from YVR because they know so much of the YYC hub is based on feeds from BC, and they want YYC to succeed. I feel routes like YVR-YQB and YVR-YHZ on AC could come with the A220. In the old days I could have seen Rouge doing it, but they don't have a base at YVR so that's not going to happen. And YYZ and YUL need to be fed so they don't have much incentive to undermine that

Dominion301 Dec 15, 2019 1:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage (Post 8775267)
The journo was from Toronto and Ed Sims all ready knew that, so he told the reporter exactly what she and her readers wanted to hear.

One thing new CEOs and VP Network Planning people learn from communications staff; always have a positive, but noncommittal answer for local journos.

If you ask CX if they would like to serve YYC, the answer will always be "At the moment, we don't have the right fleet and would need an expanded bilateral between our country and yours. In the future once our new fleet of 789/778/350 etc arrive and we get additional route rights, we can look at serving your city". 3 years later the same executive gives the same answer to a new journo. Wash, rinse, repeat.

The whole article has an Ontario and Quebec centric approach and would love to have heard the questions. One of the things I like about hearing from live Q&A media availability is that you get full context about the journos angle.

As for actually expanding in YOW, YYZ, and YUL; first step will be getting back to mainline on YYZ-YUL. Currently its 8 Q400s and 2 737s. Further down the line, lets see what gifts the Competition Tribunal will have for WS in order to approve AC-TS merger. WS will angle to get as many gates and routes from AC/TS as possible. Competition Tribunal might even impose some route restrictions on AC/TS.




Doubtful that Onex will take that much of an active role in WS. Also zero chance anything more than 1 VP level person moves out east. If there is an executive based in YYZ, it will be because that person doesn't want to move their family to YYC.



The name change question is brought up by reporters/journos who don't have a lot research into WestJet. The questioners need to have responses that speak to their local reader/viewer base. The name change angle is an attempt to get into the story something the writer can understand and write about intelligently.

That’s more than just pandering to a reporter by Sims and a WestJet leader is finally admitting it. Fact is WS are far, far weaker at YUL and YOW than they should be. Where’s the logic of flying YEG-YHM and YEG-YXU year-round, yet not do so from cities 3 and 8 times the size of London? It’s beyond illogical.

Djeffery Dec 15, 2019 2:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 8776353)
That’s more than just pandering to a reporter by Sims and a WestJet leader is finally admitting it. Fact is WS are far, far weaker at YUL and YOW than they should be. Where’s the logic of flying YEG-YHM and YEG-YXU year-round, yet not do so from cities 3 and 8 times the size of London? It’s beyond illogical.

Maybe an extension of the Max issues, I don't know. I thought Swoop wasn't able to grow their fleet as quickly because WS was keeping the 800's due to the Max being grounded. Maybe they would need more than the 1 aircraft serving London to do Montreal or Ottawa right, and since they don't have any, they went ahead with just adding in the London flights. Just spitballing here though

Alexcaban Dec 15, 2019 10:28 AM

Air India increasing YYZ to daily service from March 2020.

Quote:

Air India in this week’s schedule update filed service increase for Delhi – Toronto service, for summer 2020 season. From 29MAR20, the airline will operate this route on daily basis, increasing from existing 3 weekly flights.

Boeing 777-300ER operates this route.

AI187 DEL0300 – 0845YYZ 77W D
AI188 YYZ1215 – 1215+1DEL 77W D
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38...te-march-2020/

Dominion301 Dec 15, 2019 2:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery (Post 8776373)
Maybe an extension of the Max issues, I don't know. I thought Swoop wasn't able to grow their fleet as quickly because WS was keeping the 800's due to the Max being grounded. Maybe they would need more than the 1 aircraft serving London to do Montreal or Ottawa right, and since they don't have any, they went ahead with just adding in the London flights. Just spitballing here though

That probably in the short-term has something to do with it. However, this weakness predates Swoop.

Djeffery Dec 15, 2019 2:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 8776559)
That probably in the short-term has something to do with it. However, this weakness predates Swoop.

Sure, but the service you talk about is Swoop, and it's only been 6 months in London. Southwestern Ontario has been a good market for WestJet and now Swoop, so they add services here. Maybe their weakness in Ottawa and Montreal is more a matter of how they have been received there, rather than a failure on their management teams to notice those big cities sitting there.

SpongeG Dec 16, 2019 11:10 PM

Boeing to suspend production of 737 Max next month

Plane behind 2 deadly crashes has been grounded since March
Thomson Reuters · Posted: Dec 16, 2019

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boe...Rf1AINxJ8RJbEQ

LeftCoaster Dec 17, 2019 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 8776238)
WS will likely not pursue many medium sized destinations like YXU from YVR because they know so much of the YYC hub is based on feeds from BC, and they want YYC to succeed. I feel routes like YVR-YQB and YVR-YHZ on AC could come with the A220. In the old days I could have seen Rouge doing it, but they don't have a base at YVR so that's not going to happen. And YYZ and YUL need to be fed so they don't have much incentive to undermine that

I don't see WS adding much at YVR over the next 3-4 years for exactly this reason. They need to route as much through YYC as possible to help prop up their hub there.

It's a big opportunity for AC and US carriers to scoop that traffic by offering directs.

craneSpotter Dec 17, 2019 4:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage (Post 8775267)
Doubtful that Onex will take that much of an active role in WS. Also zero chance anything more than 1 VP level person moves out east. If there is an executive based in YYZ, it will be because that person doesn't want to move their family to YYC.

I disagree. What's doubtful is Onex spending a premium to buy WestJet for 3.5 billion (WestJet was worth way less), paying off WestJet's 1.5 billion debt - taking them private (so no more public reporting), and then just go ahead and leave them alone to keep doing their thing...

WestJet senior executives will be reporting to Onex and Onex will have final say on ALL major business decisions. WestJet is their company now. I dunno what it is, but Onex really wants to run an airline (they tried to get Canadian , failed, then tried to get A piece of Qantas..,).

craneSpotter Dec 17, 2019 4:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaws (Post 8775722)
CP Air didn’t miss a beat when they rebranded as Canadian

No a great example. CP didn't change their name per se, CP was bought by PWA and they changed the newly merged airline's name to Canadian (in 1987).

Canadian Airlines lasted about 12 years, struggling for most of it, before collapsing financially and being taken over by Air Canada (takeover started in 1999 when CA had no cash left for operations after exhausting its credit lines).

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....-to-stay-aloft

wave46 Dec 19, 2019 3:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craneSpotter (Post 8778032)
I disagree. What's doubtful is Onex spending a premium to buy WestJet for 3.5 billion (WestJet was worth way less), paying off WestJet's 1.5 billion debt - taking them private (so no more public reporting), and then just go ahead and leave them alone to keep doing their thing...

WestJet senior executives will be reporting to Onex and Onex will have final say on ALL major business decisions. WestJet is their company now. I dunno what it is, but Onex really wants to run an airline (they tried to get Canadian , failed, then tried to get A piece of Qantas..,).

Berkshire Hathaway does the same thing, basically. So do a bunch of pension plans and whatnot.

Fairly priced, profitable businesses with durable advantage (in this case, the Westjet brand) have the potential to be solid parts of private equity corporations.

I'm sure Onex will definitely have some say in the final direction of what Westjet does, but as long as they keep cranking out a profit of $200-400 million per year (that's been their historical returns for 2012-2017), that's not a bad deal.

craneSpotter Dec 19, 2019 6:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8779992)

I'm sure Onex will definitely have some say in the final direction of what Westjet does, but as long as they keep cranking out a profit of $200-400 million per year (that's been their historical returns for 2012-2017), that's not a bad deal.

Some say? Gerald Schwartz will be calling the shots (that's his thing). He has stated publicly that he wants to 'grow' WestJet and 'reclaim' its value. (WS has been a disaster since 2015 market/enterprise value wise)

First Onex directive: grow routes in Eastern Canada. Question is does that mean postponing international aspirations? Where do they get the planes to grow eastern routes (thinking 737 Max issues - almost all WestJets future aircraft orders are 737 max's - which are currently grounded and production delayed significantly)? Is Westjet going to grow Encore with Q400s with their few 787s running east-west domestic mainlines?

Meanwhile, Air Canada is starting to take deliveries of the A220. https://www.wingsmagazine.com/home-grown/

thenoflyzone Dec 19, 2019 7:28 PM

I found this interesting and quite funny.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/jetblu...-growth-plans/

Access to Canada is apparently top of mind at Jetblue. How ironic, as it coincides with a WS/DL tie-up.

As far as I'm concerned, they are simply posturing in order to get gates at LGA and/or stop the WS/DL tie-up. They don't have any real intent on serving Canada, or else they would have done it by now.

thenoflyzone Dec 19, 2019 7:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpongeG (Post 8777765)
Boeing to suspend production of 737 Max next month

Plane behind 2 deadly crashes has been grounded since March
Thomson Reuters · Posted: Dec 16, 2019

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boe...Rf1AINxJ8RJbEQ

This was inevitable and isn't indicative of when the MAX will resume flights. They were bleeding money keeping the production line open. It was only a matter of time until they decided to suspend it.

This being said, Boeing needs to get it's act together.

They just got fined due to the installation of defective parts on the 737NG.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKBN1YA2F2

Quote:

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said on Friday it seeks to impose a $3.9 million fine on Boeing Co, alleging it failed to prevent the installation of defective parts on about 130 737 NG airplanes. The FAA alleged that Boeing “failed to adequately oversee its suppliers to ensure they complied with the company’s quality assurance system ... Boeing knowingly submitted aircraft for final FAA airworthiness certification after determining that the parts could not be used due to a failed strength test.”

In a statement on Friday, Boeing did not admit liability but said they were aware of the FAA’s concerns.
Completely stupid ! Things like this shouldn't happen, and is indicative of the underlying safety issues that need to be addressed at Boeing. Heads need to roll at management.

FlyYOW Dec 19, 2019 9:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8780517)
This was inevitable and isn't indicative of when the MAX will resume flights.

I'm curious on what basis you say this.

Jamaican-Phoenix Dec 19, 2019 10:31 PM

Apparently, Ottawa's airport is getting something of an internal rework.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv4ffqVa1Qw

thenoflyzone Dec 20, 2019 3:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac888yow (Post 8780680)
I'm curious on what basis you say this.

I say it because we didn’t know when the RTS (return to service) was before the shutdown, nor do we after the announcement.

First and foremost, the production line shutdown was a financial decision. They now have more undelivered Max’s than delivered ones. Stopping the production line was the right decision. Frankly they could have announced it a few months ago, when it was clear the plane wasn't going to fly in 2019.

The plane will “most likely” RTS next year. It might be April, it might be December 2020. We don’t know for sure, and neither does Boeing. All Boeing can do is comply with the FAAs demands and hope for earliest RTS, which is an FAA decision.

Cage Dec 20, 2019 4:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8781242)
I say it because we didn’t know when the RTS (return to service) was before the shutdown, nor do we after the announcement.

First and foremost, the production line shutdown was a financial decision. They now have more undelivered Max’s than delivered ones. Stopping the production line was the right decision. Frankly they could have announced it a few months ago, when it was clear the plane wasn't going to fly in 2019.

The plane will “most likely” RTS next year. It might be April, it might be December 2020. We don’t know for sure, and neither does Boeing. All Boeing can do is comply with the FAAs demands and hope for earliest RTS, which is an FAA decision.

IIRC Boeing requires their customers to pay 1/3 the cost on order, 1/3 when the parts begin manufacturing, 1/3 on delivery. It takes a little under one year for a 737 to be built with final assembly done in the last 2-3 months.

Airlines suspended installment payments when the 737max was grounded. Boeing's cash bleed is not on the undelivered aircraft built in 2019, their cash bleed is on parts for 2020 aircraft for which Boeing doesn't have the second 1/3 of installment payments.

FlyYOW Dec 20, 2019 7:49 PM

The decision to stop production should be interpreted as RTS being far away still (if at all with the current design). I'm doubtful of a first half return, unless Boeing steps away from seeking concurrent international approval and just focuses on the FAA approval independently.

Restarting that supply chain might be a horror.

Cage Dec 21, 2019 6:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac888yow (Post 8781596)
The decision to stop production should be interpreted as RTS being far away still (if at all with the current design). I'm doubtful of a first half return, unless Boeing steps away from seeking concurrent international approval and just focuses on the FAA approval independently.

Restarting that supply chain might be a horror.

Stopping the global supply chain has the consequence of explaining to politicians that continuing the 737max grounding will have consequences for jobs and the economy of their home constituency.

Up to now, the major impact has been restricted to USA economy, that is about to go global.

Remember Boeing and Airbus are global companies very similar to banks like HSBC. They are too big to fail. The 737max program is too big to fail. At some point the politicians just have to trust the regulators to get the job done and certify the aircraft as safe. We haven't crossed the line of political interference, but we travelling at Mach .9 to get there, hope the world comes to a landing without going into RESA runway area.


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