What i've been able to scratch together is this:

Grey Cup
2013: 65K (NBCSN)
2014: 189K (ESPN2)
2015: 130K (ESPN2)
2019: 109K (ESPN2)

2014 season average: 181K (ESPN) / 160K (ESPN2)
2017 season average: ~130K (ESPN2)
2018 season average: 163K (ESPN2)

Most-watched single game ever on ESPN was 406K in 2018 for Manziel - 130K more viewers than any other CFL broadcast on ESPN that season.

https://www.macleans.ca/culture/netf...ew-this-month/
https://www.sportsvideo.org/2019/01/...-on-espn-espn/
https://3downnation.com/2018/08/07/j...-espn-in-2018/

NBCSN's reach is much smaller than that of ESPN's, which explains the jump in the CFL's Grey Cup number in 2014 and the NHL's pedestrian number. An example of this would be the NHL averaging 1.3M on broadcast NBC (12 games) versus 313K on cable NBCSN (100 games), both figures for the 2018-2019 season. Thing with NHL viewers on NBCSN is that since the NHL began with NBCSN in 05-06 the viewers have doubled whilst they've also doubled the number of games being shown, so they're increasing their audience at the same time they're increasing the total games being shown.

http://nbcsportsgrouppressbox.com/20...all-platforms/

:previous:

I wonder how many of those are Canadian ex-pats.........

I'd imagine that the viewership is a good mix of Canadian expats, Americans with some emotional connection to the game due to players from their city/school or having been to Canada, and Americans who are simply curious about seeing a different kind of football.

New Calgary arena deal anyone?

In the 90s I remember it having a higher profile, especially since legendary Eddie Robinson was the coach. Although they pack a lot of people into the game I think it's more akin to the Ottawa game. Big locally, but doesn't really register on a national scale.

Both teams are in the 2nd division and are HBCUs (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) and have way less talent than the big 1st division teams.

Cool rivalry and fanfare down there, but I think few people without connections to the school want to watch something where they know it's on the lower end of the sport.

You mean like the Panda Game?

Yes.

@JLew1050
Nearly 3.2 million unique viewers and an average audience of nearly 1 million viewers tuned into Kawhi's return on @TSN_Sports last night, making it the most-watched regular season NBA game ever in Canada. The previous record was set on opening night.

For context, Canada's most-watched NBA game ever, including playoffs, was the Raptors championship-clinching win in Game 6 of the Finals last June, also on @TSN_Sports (+ CTV and RDS), with 15.9 million unique viewers and an average audience of 7.7 million.

...

"Live streaming starts for the game were up +61% compared to TSN’s previous highest Raptors game this season. The game also attracted major engagement on TSN’s official social media platforms, with more than 4 million impressions and nearly 400,000 video views on Instagram, and more than 1.5 million video views on Twitter."

https://www.bellmedia.ca/the-lede/pr...game-on-record

Toronto might be the gateway to rugby league riches after Wolfpack breakthrough

https://www.thestar.com/sports/2019/...akthrough.html

"The Toronto Wolfpack didn’t just secure a promotion to RFL’s Super League when they dispatched the Featherstone Rovers 24-6 at Lamport Stadium in October.

They secured new opportunities for the entire sport.

That win kicked off a series of moves that stakeholders hope will reshape their home stadium, their league and RFL’s worldwide business prospects in 2020.

After all, the Wolfpack’s value to the U.K.-based Rugby Football League isn’t just that they’re the circuit’s first North American team. It’s that they’re based in one of the continent’s biggest media markets, and have qualified for Super League as RFL prepares to negotiate broadcast rights for 2021 and beyond.

If the Wolfpack had lost to Featherstone and spent yet another year in the second division, the club could have survived without expensive upgrades to Lamport Stadium’s locker rooms and scoreboards. But with a higher level of competition looming, the Wolfpack will likely invest several million dollars to bring the city-owned stadium up to Super League standards.

And marquee free-agent signing Sonny Bill Williams almost certainly wouldn’t have left New Zealand to join a second-division team in Toronto, but the Wolfpack’s promotion enabled them to offer enough pay and platform to lure the long-time All Black to Canada.

...

“Toronto is the most important brand in our sport right now,” said Alex Simmons, a sports marketing analyst and host of Rugby AM, a rugby league TV show. “We’re heading for a TV deal in 2021, and we need a North American broadcast deal. The only way we can do that is if the Wolfpack lift the Challenge Cup or the Super League trophy.”

...

Still, much of the responsibility for expanding the Wolfpack’s mainstream reach in Toronto, and the RFL’s presence outside northern England, will rest on the broad shoulders of the 34-year-old Williams.

While the RFL’s long-term plans include gaining traction in New York, Boston and Ottawa, McDermott says the league first needs to conquer London, where most sports fans prefer 15-player rugby union over 13-player rugby league. The distinction means little to most North American viewers, but it’s critical to aficionados of either version of rugby, and part of what makes crossover players such as Williams so rare.

“It’s a different sport,” said McDermott, who signed a five-year contract extension in late November. “It’s a bit like comparing pool to snooker. On the surface it looks similar, but they’re very, very different.”

Emphasis added mine.

Out of curiosity, why don’t the Wolfpack play out of BMO?

Because they don't really need to...Lamport does everything they need a stadium to do. Upgrades are being done now to be compliant with Super League regulations after promotion.

With both TFC and the Argos at BMO I don't really see any interest from MLSE on adding the Wolfpack to the BMO schedule, outside of the fact that MLSE does not own the Wolfpack.

It's interesting that the Wolfpack has made things work at Lamport. I've never been in it but from what I've seen on TV there is nothing about it that looks professional... it reminds me of the old University of Manitoba stadium, just super bare-bones with not much beyond a bench to sit on.

I'm not sure what the facilities in the top flight typically look like, but I'd imagine Lamport must be well back of the pack in that regard?

It's concrete stands with bench seating...very bare bones amenities underneath and within (beer carts, some canteens). That's basically it. The location is great, though, and really not much more is needed for the most basic of sports watching.

Some of the teams have very basic stadiums...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nd_terrace.jpg
(Wakefield)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...dmainstand.jpg
(Castleford)

Others play in proper stadiums...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...sfield_002.jpg
(Huddersfield)

images via Wikipedia

A keen eye will note that the stadiums in Huddersfield, Wigan, and Hull are shared with EPL/former EPL teams.

Lamport Stadium is as basic as they come. I thought it was supposed to be torn down years ago. I suppose we would need a new stadium built elsewhere before they could demolish it now.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...a1b967d5_b.jpgJoe Mellor scored the Wolfpack's 1000th point of the season! by Paul Henman, on Flickr

I don't know that demand would be there for them to use BMO at this point. A full Lamport looks a lot better than a third full BMO. And they are apparently going to put a lot of money into Lamport to improve the fan experience a bit as well as player facilities. I imagine there is only so much they can do but at least it's something.

How does this league work anyway? So, they win some level of games and get promoted to this new level. Can they just as easily go back to the lower level they were at last year? Was it a case of they moved up, someone else moved down, or is it in effect an expansion, you never drop down? What happens if they throw a bunch of money into this, they go into a slump and drop back down and now the fans turn their backs?

It's promotion/relegation similar to association football in most countries. In this league one team goes up and one team goes down every year, so in their current new league (Super League) the bottom team is relegated and replaced by the best second tier team (Championship). Theoretically Toronto could be relegated out of this league if they finished dead last in standings at the end of the season. There's risk of relegation but I have a feeling they'll be at least a mid-table team.

Leagues like this don't really do expansion in the normal sense. In 2017 they joined League 1 (third tier), won that, then played in Championship (second tier) for two seasons in 2018 and 2019. They very narrowly missed out on promotion in 2018 before attaining it this fall. If places like Boston, New York, or Ottawa are joining this league in the future then they will have to join at the third tier like Toronto did in 2017 and work their way up. It's a more satisfying system in comparison to North American franchise sports, IMO, and it's a system that requires more than just wealthy owners to buy a spot in a league. It puts more emphasis on fielding good quality teams and does not provide benefit for finishing poorly.

Hockey Night in Canada ratings seem to be falling pretty low since Don Cherry was canned. The prime time games now are in the low 800,000's last year same period were at 983,000. The gap between them and CFL games on Friday nights seems to be not as wide as it used to be. I remember just a few years ago the prime time Leaf games would draw around 1.7 million and the late night west coast games would be around 700 to 800 thousand.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...g-hnic-ratings

First things first: Of course opening night and the start of the season has higher numbers than the doldrums of December. That isn't really shocking and a bit of a stretch for the article to imply that this decrease is due to Cherry's departure and not simply general decline as the season naturally wears on (2018 had a more drastic decline from opener to December as shown below).

I highly question the intention behind the writing of this article but the easiest way to see to this would be to simply go back through Numeris' archive to see if there's been any discernible drop.

http://en.numeris.ca/media-and-event...ekly-top-30#k=

HNIC Prime East (CBC), Numeris reporting numbers:
Nov 30-Dec 20, 2015: 2 Weekends: 1,030,000 avg.*
Nov 28-Dec 18, 2016: 3 Weekends: 1,161,000 avg.
Nov 27-Dec 17. 2017: 3 Weekends: 1,326,000 avg.
Nov 26-Dec 16, 2018: 3 Weekends: 1,005,000 avg.
Nov 30-Dec 14, 2019: 3 Weekends: 915,000 avg.

*The middle weekend of this period for 2015 did not enter the top 30 programs of the week. The 30th ranked program that week had 1.05M viewers.

Also, season debuts, since this year's was mentioned in the article:

HNIC Prime East (CBC), NHL first weekend:
October 5-11, 2015: 1,276,000
October 10-16, 2016: 1,545,000
October 2-8, 2017: 1,794,000
October 1-7, 2018: 1,641,000
October 6-13, 2019: 1,247,000

CBC's numbers are pretty much where they were in 2015 with a peak in the middle of the reporting period.

One thing that was not mentioned in the article was that the NHL season in recent years has been starting on Wednesdays, meaning that SN's Wednesday night coverage had opening games. 2019's game on SN garnered 1,407,000 compared to CBC's 1,247,000 on HNIC that Saturday. In 2018 the equivalent Wednesday opener on SN garnered the same 1.6M that HNIC got that Saturday. 2017 was the most recent year where HNIC's opener outdrew SN's Wednesday opener (1.7M v 1.4M).

So while CBC's openers have declined in the past few years the SN openers have increased, at least in comparison to CBC's figures.

So while the thought of Cherry's firing causing this decline is nice in theory it's probably just a natural decline both in the season and in hockey viewership in general on CBC as viewers migrate to other options, namely SN. It took me 15 minutes to get these numbers scrounged together - I genuinely wish the article had done the same legwork given that the past five years of numbers are available.

Also, since it's not pointed out, all of these figures are only for the early games on HNIC and make no mention of the late games (obviously, since Cherry only appeared for Leafs the early CBC games). This year's decline can be explained away pretty easily: Ottawa is in an awful spot, Montreal are moribund, and the Leafs (until Babcock's firing) were very much underperforming. Pretty simple reasoning for why figures would be down compared to last season.

tl;dr

• CBC ratings for HNIC are probably on the decline anyway;
• No real discernible difference in decline from October-December compared to 2018;
• These figures are only for the early games on HNIC; and,
• These HNIC figures do not take into account figures garnered on SN broadcasts.

Happy Holidays everyone. :P

May as well update this for this week:

Numeris reporting numbers, December 16-22 2019:

Leafs Hockey, TSN, Tuesday, 760K
Leafs Hockey, SNOntario+, Friday, 726K
HNIC Prime East, Sportsnet, Saturday, 700K
HNIC Prime East, CBC, Saturday, 672K

http://assets.numeris.ca/Downloads/D...(National).pdf

Initial World Junior numbers will be out this time next week. Last year's first three preliminary Canada games averaged 1.7M, the final prelim game averaged 2.4M, and Canada's QF loss to Finland averaged 2.0M. This year's numbers should be down given the tournament's timezones in Czechia.

Man those hockey numbers are really weak and falling fast. The gap between primetime CFL and NHL games used to be 3 to 1 in favour of hockey with 1.7 million prime time on HNIC and CFL between 400 and 700 thousand. Now the gap seems to only be a couple hundred thousand if that. It could also be that with Toronto and the GTA population now consisting more and more of new Canadians every year and the white population shrinking in the GTA every year and the rise in the Raptors popularity that hockey is not what it used to be in Toronto. I would say that Montreal now is the hockey capital of the world and no longer Toronto in terms of fan interest.

Wait another 20 years and you'll find Torontonians call hockey a redneck sport that hicks in places like Manitoba watch. If it reaches its logical conclusion we'll end up with many Torontonians unfamiliar with the Leafs and wondering why we don't just ditch US sports like hockey. Surely hockey is beneath us while soccer and cricket are more fitting for a world class city like Toronto? What's a Stanley Cup any way?

Can't happen? That's what football said 3-4 generations ago.

The CFL got smashed by the colossus of the NFL. There's lots of football fans in Toronto - they just cheer for Green Bay, New England or whatever NFL team now. It's why I can watch NFL games on CTV on basic cable, while the CFL is relegated to premium sports channels.

Where will hockey fans go? The NHL is the top dog in the world of professional ice hockey, one that already has entrenched roots in America. Now, I could see if the NHL keeps neglecting their Canadian teams and the base (especially among the more diverse population of modern Toronto), they might have their day of reckoning (see: the Ottawa Senators' story right now), but I don't think the same forces that hurt the CFL will do the same to the NHL.

:haha: So much whining/crying because Toronto has outgrown the CFL.

As long as the NHL is the best hockey league in the world, support won't be a problem in Toronto.

Not really.

I have no doubt that Bell would love to force you to subscribe to TSN to watch NFL games on TV the same way that you have to subscribe to a channel to watch your regional NHL feed or the CFL, but they can't do that because there are so many games available on US broadcast TV. Bell/Rogers/whoever can't monopolize the rights the same way.

The Toronto assumptions are probably fine in theory but without any regionalized breakdown of viewers or ratings they're just assumptions. Leafs SNO viewers and ratings, especially for those midweek games, are fine as they are IMO. People, not just contained to Toronto but Canada at large, will watch whatever Toronto team is hot at the moment. A few years ago it was Jays, now it's Raptors, and the Leafs always pull alright numbers regardless.

Indeed. If people can't watch on CTV they'll watch on FOX or whatever American channel is showing the game on basic packages. CTV gets whatever piece of the NFL ratings pie they can and moves on.

How is the NHL neglecting Canadian teams?

I mean, if you add the SN and CBC numbers on Saturday you end up with a combined 1.3M, which is more than any CFL reg. season game and roughly half what the Grey Cup brings in. You have to keep in mind that HNIC numbers have been split CBC/SN for the past five years or so. The CFL is not making ground on the NHL in any meaningful way in Canada, IMO.

World Juniors, Canada/USA Boxing Day, TSN, 2.25M.
Raptors Christmas Day, SN, ~1.0M.

Raptors have again set a high-water mark for regular season most-watched game.

aren't the Saturday sportsnet and city tv games usually Habs or Senators and the CBC game is the Leafs? I got rid of sportsnet as their announcers and hosts are very annoying and way too much of their coverage is dedicated to baseball. Also Grey Cup did 3.9 million viewers this year and CFL playoffs were doing 1 million to 1.6 million viewers.

GC 2018: 3.1M
GC 2019: 3.9M

The average for CFL divisional games are roughly 900K-1M. Source

Division finals are 1-1.3M, dipping below that in 2018. [Source]

A lot of this depends on Saskatchewan, though, since that province drives CFL ratings more than the other teams.

The fact that people think of the CFL as something to be "outgrown" just shows how provincial sports fandom is in this city. There's no city in the world that only supports teams that are at the pinnacle of their sport. That seems to be a uniquely Toronto/Canada thing.

It's pretty common knowledge that NHL teams aren't really located based on demand. If we had a promotion/relegation system like the Wolfpack play in natural supply and demand would take over and we'd have more teams in Canada and fewer in the US. And, for that matter, we'd have more teams in eastern Canada than the west.

Like every other time this is brought up, relegation systems do not work in the strictly hierarchical and salary-capped North American leagues.

Whether or not Saskatoon could theoretically put more fans in seats than Tampa Bay or Carolina is irrelevant when they likely can't maintain a $79 million/year payroll or build a 19,000 seat stadium.

None of this is relevant to my point. It was a hypothetical scenario. I was simply saying that the location of teams is based on where the league wants them, not where the demand is.

You can still have a salary cap in a relegation system.

The difference between a rel pro system would the need for the CHL to be a seniors league.

You'd have to have 3 2nd tier leagues to make it work.

The CHL proves that Canada is more or less perfect for this system.

The "big leagues" argument is total nonsense.

If this was the case the rangers/blackhawks/kings etc would have far more popularity in the city.

The reality is MLSE has an effective monopoly on sports in this country.

The CFL will never work in the GTA until there is a another team in the city(ideally Mississauga) with ownership that is aggressively pushing for attention.

And where the people with money are, like any other sports league. Tim Hortons balked at paying the price almost 30 years ago, and thus we have the Tampa Bay Lightning. Quebecor balked at paying the price 4 or 5 years ago, and thus Seattle is going to take the place that QC would have had. The fact that Edmonton and Ottawa still have teams, Winnipeg got theirs back and QC could have got their backs shows the NHL and Bettman aren't as anti-Canada as the popular opinion seems to be.

I think you mean to say MLSE has a sports monopoly in Toronto, since they don't own any teams outside of Toronto. I don't think another CFL team in the GTA would do anything to help the Argos. They won 2 of the last 8 Grey Cups and moved out of the stadium that supposedly was ruining them. You would just create 2 very unstable franchises.

Surely you mean in Toronto.

What? No. :haha:

Not many things can work in places like Mississauga because they're commuter suburbs with no local identity. A soccer team is having a difficult time getting crowds out in York and you think gridiron has a shot in Mississauga? If the Argos can't make it work I doubt a team in the suburbs would have much more hope. London would be a better shout.

I'm pretty sure you have this backwards. I think the NHL BoG doubted Quebecor could provide $400M+ USD for an expansion team in addition to the normal operating costs of the team, in addition to all the others issues that QC would bring to the league and players.

Heyyyy someone that gets it! Bettman/the BoG has gone to bat for Canadian teams just as much as they have for American teams that have had difficulties. The NHL doesn't gain much by moving teams around at will.

What does this have to do with how the NHL treats Canadian franchises? Are you suggesting the NHL set up shop in Sudbury or Corner Brook?

Firstly, we don't, and likely never will.

Secondly, sure, but you know Canadian teams could presumably be removed from the picture altogether in this scenario, too, right? Canadian teams aren't exactly at a competitive balance when it comes to American competition on a number of fronts, not the least of which being that more people play hockey in the US than in Canada and that the Canadian dollar is valued at 25% less than its American counterpart.

The franchise model actually ensures their place in the league much more than a proposed pro/rel system would.

Surely the people of Saskatoon would support a 2nd division hockey side which would occasionally get blown out at the top level of hockey in North America. Surely those same people of Saskatoon also wouldn't mind watching a top tier NHL with two teams in Toronto, Montreal, Boston, Minnesota, and Chicago as well.

I think most everybody outside Toronto thinks the rest of Canada has outgrown Toronto's wannabe culture. There is no other place on earth I can think of where a place not only ignores local sport (which is possibly understandable) but actively denigrates it. That's perverse.

And please let's not hear the ol' "I wanna watch the best" line because it is total BS.

I think you need a new calculator.

FYP Wish I would have read your post earlier, would have saved me from making the same post. Either way, it's still pathetic.

Sorry for wanting the best. When you live in a city that has teams in every major league but one what do you expect? Also Toronto is a global city with a population with more then 50% born outside Canada. People come here knowing the major leagues and following them if they're into sports. What's pathetic is calling a 9 team leage Pro. A 9 team league that is made up mostly American players that couldnt make the cut in the NFL. Not likeing the CFL has nothing to do with being a patriotic Canadian. If that was the case nobody would watch the Superbowl. But as ratings show more people in Canada tune into that game then the GreyCup. Pathetic I know but a nation wide reality.

Apparently you don't know what 'pro', as in professional, means...

People like/dislike what they like/dislike. Why not just accept that and move on with your life instead of going through yet another decade of trying to lay a guilt trip on Toronto?

Not sure why everyone's concentrating on Toronto when there are other cities struggling to draw interest for the CFL... and for the most part the league has been declining for a few years now. The 90's are coming back - I can already hear the grunge music.

When someone doesn't like your product, don't blame the customer - blame the product... especially after 3 decades. That's Business 101. Adapt or perish.


Anyway, back on topic...

NFL Wildcard playoffs start tomorrow. Love this time of the year.
Every single playoff game up to and including the Super Bowl (11 games) caught with a simple antenna in glorious less-compressed High Definition for free. Oh baby!

By that logic, what’s even more grossly pathetic is counting Stanley cups when the “pro” league only had 6 teams. When was the last time you raised a Stanley Cup banner, Toronto?! you’re a complete f’n disgrace Toronto!

Toronto is a lost cause but it does provide a hyper environment to where the CFLs issues are amplified. Too much projection into Toronto when much of these faults are the CFLs own doing. The broken record is that the CFL has been too lazy to not adapt.

The CFL's peak was when it was analogous to the NFL in the 50s, 60s and 70s with salaries being comparable and thus talent being transferable. Once the 80s hit and the NFL started to rocket up with TV money and boost salaries the CFL has been left to flounder ever since. Save for its many near free fall and only now since about 10 years ago can the league say it has found stable footing again. The CFL botched television for decades with overzealous blackout rules which ended up doing more harm in shutting out potential young fans. Back in the day with not much internet or social media (the 90s) was an opportune time to build up young fans via television.

The next issue still revolving around money and salaries. A decade ago the NFL made sweeping changes to its practice roster rules where it increased the slots and upped the pay. You now have a situation where a NFL practice roster individual makes more on average than a CFL player. For a "professional" football players who's job and skillset is simply to play football, he is simply going to where the money is. I can't stress this enough. There are legions of men who know nothing else but to play football and have put in the same years and time as any other professional but for an assortment of reasons could not get to the top level (consistent career starter with consistent contracts). These men are in the business of football and for them it makes more sense to swallow thier pride and get a six figure paycheck to be a nobody on a NFL practice roster versus the potential of being a starter in Canada. For them money is the motivation. The CFL has, by choice, not taken the steps to be competitive and offer far better compensation than the NFL practice circuit and it continues to pay the price in the inability to find adequate talent for many key positions such as QB. The CFL QB crisis can be directly linked to this.

CFL hard-headed fans can't connect the dots that this critically wounded the CFL as these journey men where a prime source of CFL talent. Unlike other sports football talent is severely limited and if you are taking away ~100 more potential prospects from consideration what see you left with? Canadian development has stagnated and there isn't much yet thing as alternative international pools for talent.

This is why you see the CFL doing odd moves such as Mexico as they have the intention of looking to grow player markets but you won't get CFL players from Mexico until infrastructure, and coaching is put in place and this still it takes a generation to get players. Look at the NFL and Germany for an example as that nation has a system in place for football but it hasn't matured yet to start producing consistent talent yet. There may be now some German propects playing in NCAA, and only in 2016 did the NFL see it's first German direct draft prospect and this was only now after a 20+ years of program development in Germany.

The CFL has failed to address it's player development and it's salaries for far too long. Just as well as it failed to build up it's brand and culture. Hiding behind suspicious TV numbers when the trends are going away from TV for younger fans. The NBA for example has already laid out plans to recover TV money shortfalls by exploring other revenue streams a while the CFL still lives of its TSN money and little else.

This all leads to the point back to Toronto as who is to blame that with football, the CFL, can't be viewed as the pinnacle of its sport? All it takes is good branding and culture development as the CFL should be promoted as a unique and odd game that is the pinnacle of its own standing. Country unique leagues such as AFL and Geilic are widely popular in their respective countries, so why can't the CFL follow suit? Now with all the old Boomers who were growing up as kids of the 50-70s growing older the CFL now sees it has little to know fans on the horizon. Toronto saw this problem early as that crowd cycled out of the city decades ago. So again, why is Toronto to blame for showing a light on the CFLs own critical issues. Toronto should be seeing a renaissance as the GTA has been producing lots of football prospects for both CIS and NCAA as of lately. Where is the CFL to latch onto that ? I can keep going...

The only fix for the Toronto mess is to pull the plug the team for a few years and reboot from scratch. There also needs to be an acceptance to be closer to the actual fan base in the 905 where's all those Boomer Generation Canadians live now. There is no care for Argos in 416 Toronto.

1967 was 53 years ago. When you buy a TV today, do you compare it with a TV from 1967 to determine if it's worth buying?

Any why even bring up the Leafs? The poster made a comment about a league - not a team.

And counting Stanley Cups from the O6 era doesn't mean you're celebrating/gloating about it. It's just part of history and you count it - even if it's not that big an accomplishment to win back then. If anything, I hear Habs fans mention those cups a lot more often when they gloat about their 24 Stanley Cups.

My only issue is people like you actively trolling and trying to denigrate the league, I could care less if you don't like it and feel more comfortable with hype, puppies and shiny objects. MLS and Rugby are not the best so the "best" argument is BS. You don't see most of us trying to put down the CPL and hoping it dies and goes away, so why do you do what you do?

The argument I here most is that people in Toronto feel that they're "owed" a place at the big boys table by supporting and having successful teams in every other big 4 league.

The vast majority of people probably couldn't tell you the difference between a cover-0 and cover-2 defensive scheme but the actual salary cap and the players not having to "work as a gym teacher" in the off-season legitimizes the league for a lot of people in it for the spectacle.

I stopped caring about football; nfl, CFL or otherwise after I stopped playing. Toronto's likely never getting an nfl team and will likely never embrace the argos either. No doubt this conversation will continue to repeat itself once a year at least though.

FYP and agree.

Toronto can be revived in the CFL as TFC and Wolfpac Rugby have shown you don't need to be in the so called biggest and best sports league to have success. The Argos need to have consistent winning regular seasons like Calgary and Winnipeg and not the flukey one off Grey Cup wins that fizzled out right away before they could be built off of. Also dedicated pricing and promos to get kids into the stadium like the Eskimos are doing should be replicated.