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-   -   Will Virginia lose it's southern status? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245214)

Docere Dec 26, 2020 6:17 PM

Was West Virginia "less southern" than Virginia in 1988?

Steely Dan Dec 26, 2020 6:19 PM

West Virginia should probably be renamed "East Kentucky" at this point.

pj3000 Dec 26, 2020 6:31 PM

People in New Orleans consider people from Shreveport to be Yankees.

lio45 Dec 26, 2020 9:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dariusb (Post 9142661)
I just don't see what the big deal is. I started the thread because I thought it was an interesting topic and I wanted to hear people's opinions. I got some very interesting ones. I certainly wasn't trying to cause confusion. In any case thanks to the people who understood and took the time to contribute.

It's a broader topic.

"Maryland and Delaware are totally Southern culturally in 2020 and will forever be, because they're south of the Mason-Dixon Line geographically" is an interesting discussion to have. Personally, my view is clear - culture and geography are separate concepts and the former can change.

Maybe I'm aware of that due to living in Quebec, which is always only a couple generations away from becoming Louisiana - a Canadian province just like all the other ones.

If you told me (or anyone else) that Quebec is forever guaranteed to be culturally distinct just because it was so at some point in its history, you'd be laughed out of the room.

Now, the only semi-logical argument I've seen to deem NoVa Southern but MD/DE not, is secession in the Civil War 160+ years ago, and it does not hold any water upon scrutiny - it's like saying that Scottish culture would only start to exist if Scotland voted to leave the UK, or that if Quebec voted ever so slightly differently in 1995 (50.5% Leave/49.5% Remain instead of the opposite) and re-joined Canada five years later, its status as Culturally Distinct would be set in stone until the end of times.

If Tennessee voted 50.5% Leave, 49.5% Remain while Kentucky voted 49.5% Leave, 50.5% Remain in early 1861, these two states are now totally culturally different in 2020?!? Makes zero sense.

lio45 Dec 26, 2020 9:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9142708)
You did kinda ask for it with that question. Is Virginia losing its southern status because its population is becoming better educated, it voted for Joe Biden, and took down some of its monuments to the confederacy? Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Because if it is, then a whole lot of places in the south aren't very southern, and a whole lot of places in the north aren't northern. Concepts like that don't seem as firm in the 21st century, where rural/urban and service economy/manufacturing divides seem far more prominent than geographic divisions.

? No one said anything like that.

As MonkeyRonin pointed out, if Virginia becomes an extension of the BosWash Corridor culturally, then that's not Southern anymore. Period.

If ~2 million Ontarians from the GTA decided to relocate to the NCR and they all settled in Gatineau, the city would instantly lose its current "no question that that's culturally a Québécois city" status, despite the fact that all those square feet of land are still part of the province.

Dariusb Dec 27, 2020 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142983)
It's a broader topic.

"Maryland and Delaware are totally Southern culturally in 2020 and will forever be, because they're south of the Mason-Dixon Line geographically" is an interesting discussion to have. Personally, my view is clear - culture and geography are separate concepts and the former can change.

Maybe I'm aware of that due to living in Quebec, which is always only a couple generations away from becoming Louisiana - a Canadian province just like all the other ones.

If you told me (or anyone else) that Quebec is forever guaranteed to be culturally distinct just because it was so at some point in its history, you'd be laughed out of the room.

Now, the only semi-logical argument I've seen to deem NoVa Southern but MD/DE not, is secession in the Civil War 160+ years ago, and it does not hold any water upon scrutiny - it's like saying that Scottish culture would only start to exist if Scotland voted to leave the UK, or that if Quebec voted ever so slightly differently in 1995 (50.5% Leave/49.5% Remain instead of the opposite) and re-joined Canada five years later, its status as Culturally Distinct would be set in stone until the end of times.

If Tennessee voted 50.5% Leave, 49.5% Remain while Kentucky voted 49.5% Leave, 50.5% Remain in early 1861, these two states are now totally culturally different in 2020?!? Makes zero sense.

Thanks for your opinion and how you explained it.

Dariusb Dec 27, 2020 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000 (Post 9142868)
People in New Orleans consider people from Shreveport to be Yankees.

Really? I've heard them say things like people in Shreveport are more like an extension of east Tx.

Dariusb Dec 27, 2020 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan (Post 9142863)
West Virginia should probably be renamed "East Kentucky" at this point.

I wonder if W. Virginia never split from Virginia would they have a different economic outlook or it wouldn't matter?

Manitopiaaa Dec 27, 2020 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dariusb (Post 9143083)
I wonder if W. Virginia never split from Virginia would they have a different economic outlook or it wouldn't matter?

They'd be much, much wealthier for sure (aka, their welfare state would be subsidized by Nova). Politically, they'd be no different than they are today. The Appalachian parts of Virginia, for example, behave no differently than their West Virginia brothers.

lio45 Dec 27, 2020 1:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa (Post 9143091)
Politically, they'd be no different than they are today.

Except for Virginia(s) having 2 Senators instead of 4.

Acajack Dec 27, 2020 1:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142983)
It's a broader topic.

"Maryland and Delaware are totally Southern culturally in 2020 and will forever be, because they're south of the Mason-Dixon Line geographically" is an interesting discussion to have. Personally, my view is clear - culture and geography are separate concepts and the former can change.

Maybe I'm aware of that due to living in Quebec, which is always only a couple generations away from becoming Louisiana - a Canadian province just like all the other ones.

If you told me (or anyone else) that Quebec is forever guaranteed to be culturally distinct just because it was so at some point in its history, you'd be laughed out of the room.

Now, the only semi-logical argument I've seen to deem NoVa Southern but MD/DE not, is secession in the Civil War 160+ years ago, and it does not hold any water upon scrutiny - it's like saying that Scottish culture would only start to exist if Scotland voted to leave the UK, or that if Quebec voted ever so slightly differently in 1995 (50.5% Leave/49.5% Remain instead of the opposite) and re-joined Canada five years later, its status as Culturally Distinct would be set in stone until the end of times.

If Tennessee voted 50.5% Leave, 49.5% Remain while Kentucky voted 49.5% Leave, 50.5% Remain in early 1861, these two states are now totally culturally different in 2020?!? Makes zero sense.

It also depends whether the definition of "Southern" changes. But in order for that to happen most of the South needs to be on board.

For example in the case of "Cajun" the definition has evolved to eliminate from the belonging requirement any knowledge of French or associated culture in order to be considered part of it. The definition of Southern or even Québécois could very well be similarly "dumbed down" (so to speak, sorry) at some point.

xzmattzx Dec 27, 2020 2:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142983)
It's a broader topic.

"Maryland and Delaware are totally Southern culturally in 2020 and will forever be, because they're south of the Mason-Dixon Line geographically" is an interesting discussion to have. Personally, my view is clear - culture and geography are separate concepts and the former can change.

Maybe I'm aware of that due to living in Quebec, which is always only a couple generations away from becoming Louisiana - a Canadian province just like all the other ones.

If you told me (or anyone else) that Quebec is forever guaranteed to be culturally distinct just because it was so at some point in its history, you'd be laughed out of the room.

Now, the only semi-logical argument I've seen to deem NoVa Southern but MD/DE not, is secession in the Civil War 160+ years ago, and it does not hold any water upon scrutiny - it's like saying that Scottish culture would only start to exist if Scotland voted to leave the UK, or that if Quebec voted ever so slightly differently in 1995 (50.5% Leave/49.5% Remain instead of the opposite) and re-joined Canada five years later, its status as Culturally Distinct would be set in stone until the end of times.

If Tennessee voted 50.5% Leave, 49.5% Remain while Kentucky voted 49.5% Leave, 50.5% Remain in early 1861, these two states are now totally culturally different in 2020?!? Makes zero sense.

I'm not sure where in this discussion the Mason-Dixon Line began, but Delaware is not south of the Mason-Dixon Line; it's actually east of the Mason-Dixon Line.

Will O' Wisp Dec 27, 2020 6:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142992)
? No one said anything like that.

As MonkeyRonin pointed out, if Virginia becomes an extension of the BosWash Corridor culturally, then that's not Southern anymore. Period.

If ~2 million Ontarians from the GTA decided to relocate to the NCR and they all settled in Gatineau, the city would instantly lose its current "no question that that's culturally a Québécois city" status, despite the fact that all those square feet of land are still part of the province.

There's certainly an implication if it running through the concept. Virginia isn't giving up barbecue, fried chicken, or southern accents.

To use your metaphor, what if Gatineau gave up the idea of nationalism? They keep their language, their cuisine, their culture, the only difference is that these new Québécois think of themselves as Canadians first and foremost. They firmly advocate against any form of special categorization in terms of the law, believing it harms national integration. Politically they vote more similarly to Ontario than they do to most other regions of Quebec. If that happened would Gatineau lose its "Quebec status", even though walking around you wouldn't see a lick of difference between it and anywhere else in the province?

Docere Dec 27, 2020 7:00 AM

Quebec is a much more of a distinctive society than "the South" - which is home to nearly 40% of the US population.

hauntedheadnc Dec 27, 2020 1:39 PM

Well, let's just distill things a bit here.

So, people are saying that there is a geographical and historical South, and a cultural South. If that's the case, then what, exactly, is this Southern culture -- and more importantly, why can that Southern culture not include big cities, aggressive drivers, Hindu temples, signs in Mandarin, Catholics, decent dim sum, bodegas, conveyor belt sushi, El Salvadorans, subzero winter temperatures, and all the rest?

Just going from the stereotype of Southern "hospitality" alone, anyone who thinks Southerners are hospitable has never driven in the South. Atlanta is home to the most vicious drivers on the planet.

Acajack Dec 27, 2020 4:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9143207)
There's certainly an implication if it running through the concept. Virginia isn't giving up barbecue, fried chicken, or southern accents.

To use your metaphor, what if Gatineau gave up the idea of nationalism? They keep their language, their cuisine, their culture, the only difference is that these new Québécois think of themselves as Canadians first and foremost. They firmly advocate against any form of special categorization in terms of the law, believing it harms national integration. Politically they vote more similarly to Ontario than they do to most other regions of Quebec. If that happened would Gatineau lose its "Quebec status", even though walking around you wouldn't see a lick of difference between it and anywhere else in the province?

Gatineau is already part-way there, as francophones here support independence in much lower numbers than elsewhere in Quebec. To the tune of about 25% in the last referendum vs. 50-70% in the rest of Quebec.

Separatist parties also don't fare very well here and they've only extremely sporadically elected reps from here, though municipal politicians with separatist leanings generally do OK - the city has no power to separate from Canada.

We are also OK with more general Québécois nationalist principles, if they stop short of independence.

For example the CAQ won 3 of 5 seats in the region in 2018.

Buckeye Native 001 Dec 27, 2020 7:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc (Post 9143255)
Just going from the stereotype of Southern "hospitality" alone, anyone who thinks Southerners are hospitable has never driven in the South. Atlanta is home to the most vicious drivers on the planet.

Ditto Miami, bit that opens up a whole other can of worms about what's "southern" when you start throwing South Floridians into the mix.

My gf's mom is from West Virginia. I never fully appreciated how much of an insult it is to say "bless your heart" to someone until she starts talking about her extended family.

hauntedheadnc Dec 27, 2020 8:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 (Post 9143364)
My gf's mom is from West Virginia. I never fully appreciated how much of an insult it is to say "bless your heart" to someone until she starts talking about her extended family.

The only time "bless your/his/her/their heart" is not an insult is when you're referring to a child, or someone with intellectual disabilities, and usually one who has injured themselves. Of course, if you're referring to a child who is ugly, annoying, or stupid, then it's as much of an insult as when you use it with anyone else.

iheartthed Dec 27, 2020 8:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dariusb (Post 9143083)
I wonder if W. Virginia never split from Virginia would they have a different economic outlook or it wouldn't matter?

It'd be the same, but the residents would have access to better in-state colleges.

JManc Dec 27, 2020 8:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc (Post 9143255)
Just going from the stereotype of Southern "hospitality" alone, anyone who thinks Southerners are hospitable has never driven in the South. Atlanta is home to the most vicious drivers on the planet.

Atlanta is a big cosmopolitain area with people from everywhere living there. Like Houston. It's still southern but heavily influenced by decades of northerners and immigrants moving in and driving like assholes. Traffic has always been bad has become progressively more aggressive.


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