Nobody is doing that in this thread?

The NHL has been an American entity for a long time. That isn't new.

Either way, Canadian MLS teams won't be joining CPL any time soon. There's no economic or viable reasoning for them to do so. They serve a purpose in the Canadian and American pyramids and judging by the results of CMNT, the makeup of its roster, and CPL in general i'd say that contribution continues to be positive.

Not on this thread no. But on Sports SM sites the vitriol that comes from Canadian NFL only fans is astonishing. It's like there is this deep seated hatred that the CFL even exists.

Would Canadian soccer be better off if the three largest and most influential cities went all in on supporting the premier domestic league instead of the American one? Unquestionably. I mean, this is beyond dispute.

But that said, when those cities got their MLS teams, there was no premier domestic league to speak of. It is understandable that they'd want to hold on to their clubs especially given the disparity in franchise value. But it comes at a cost to the game in general.

I wonder if the thinking may eventually change as the CPL continues to grow. I mean, I get that MLSE wasn't going to get rid of TFC to take a gamble on year one of the CPL. But as the CPL grows, it is possible that the larger cities may embrace it. We have already seen Ottawa come around.

People are nuts. I mean, I can appreciate this feeling to some extent coming from Toronto since they might have had an outside shot at a NFL team at some point. But when some guy from, say, Edmonton is ragging on it... well, sorry, but at that point you might as well just admit you don't like football because there will never be anything else there. It's basically the CFL or nothing.

I don't think this is the case at all. Canadian MLS teams are able to tap into the resources of their American counterparts at large for the purpose of developing Canadians by way of homegrown talent. Just looking at the number of CMNT members that went through some sort of MLS academy in Canada should be all we need to know about their effectiveness and impact on the sport in Canada at its highest levels. Like you say, this didn't exist before, but I don't know how much the CPL could exist today if the MLS didn't exist in some form prior. A lot of it comes down to building a pyramid and right now CPL provides its spot on the pyramid and MLS provides its spot atop of it. I don't see any issue with a situation where MLS continues growing (its Canadian teams tagging along with that) whilst CPL continues to grow underneath it. It's a win for development in general as the pyramid grows and improves.

York hasn't had much success in Toronto but with an upcoming relocation i'll be interesting to see how they fair in a more purpose-built facility in Rexdale. Likewise, Langley will be starting up in 2023, so it'll be interesting to see how that team fares in a market that is definitely more MLS-oriented. There was understandably a lot of hesitation on the part of CPL to avoid MLS markets as much as possible and on the whole they've been able to achieve that. I think Forge's success in Hamilton have given them a bit of confidence to poke at the borders of MLS areas to see how much they can have an impact.

That's because they have been consistently expanding for a decade plus.:haha:

They had to strike a deal with Apple because cable providers wouldn't give them what they want due to the low TV ratings. They limited their audience to one of the less popular streaming services (less subscribers than Netflix, Amazon, Disney+). I know there is some sort of agreement where traditional TV providers can broadcast games from Apple for a fee but the bottom line is MLS limited their public reach.

Let's see what those valuations are like when the expansion fees dry up. At that point MLS better have some alternative sources to replace that lost revenue.

The CFL's existence is the only reason Toronto doesn't have an NFL team!

That and the $6+ billion required to procure an NFL franchise.

Would love to see what players reaction would be if they had to play in a Toronto live-soft football market.

Similar to the Raptors' situation I guess, which isn't that bad.

The Blue Jays are different because a larger percentage of MLB players are not American.

While the NBA is more international than the NFL, it's still very US-dominated in terms of players.

True, though the illusion that it was (more) "ours" was maintained into the 1990s.

Don't kid yourself, it has happened often on this forum from the NFL side (CFL dies and Toronto gets a team) and from TFC (Argos die we get our stadium back) being the motives. The NFL people are obvious about it and the TFC people a little more devious. It has lessened over the years though but was most prominent when the Argos were moving to BMO and their first years there.

The NHL has more or less effectively been run from New York since the Original Six era. Remember that it was Canadian owners that prevented other Canadian teams from entering the league during that period, in particular preventing Vancouver from entering in the 1950s, as well as during the 1967 expansion.

If they're anything like the rest of the US major sports league they'll continue to rise. Likewise, if growth valuations decline or stall in other major sports leagues they'll do the same as MLS. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.

The hate that some people have for the CFL borders on the pathological.

I can understand not being interested or even not liking it, but the lengths that some people will go to to demean it just boggles my mind.

I think that I've mentioned before that I've witnessed in person anti-CFL pro-NFL "protestors" at the Grey Cup who were haranguing the fans who were walking in the stadium for the game.

That's a fair comment. To some extent, MLS proved that soccer could prosper in Canada and paved the way for the CPL. But I wouldn't say that the current model is the best one going forward.

Not having the three largest cities in the country fully engaged with the biggest domestic league will limit the ceiling for the CPL and hinder its potential as a development tool.

I mean, I realize Canada is playing the hand that it was dealt, but I doubt anyone would hold up the current model as an example of how to do it. The best you can say for it is that it kinda works. And maybe that's good enough, but it's certainly not ideal.

:haha:

Yeah wow, that is something.

I think we'll steadily see CPL seep its way into our current MLS markets in due time. York was the first attempt, Langley will be the second, and it seems like Laval may eventually be the third. There's room in these markets for multiple teams, it's just a matter of finding the niche and consumers for both.

It's working for the moment but we'll need another year or so to really gauge how things are panning out. At one end of the table there are teams like Edmonton and York which haven't panned out at all, and at the other end there are teams like Halifax and Pacific which have absolutely worked out for the better. Between that are teams like Forge, Cavalry, and increasingly Atletico who are able to build strong teams, develop players, and then move them on to higher levels of play, including MLS, for increasingly lucrative amounts.

I have no doubt that CPL will work its way into our largest cities eventually, but it would have been foolish to try and go up against MLS right out of the gate, and IMO they were correct in avoiding that conflict. Their strongest markets are medium-sized where there was no football competition at all, so it was easy to make an impact and an imprint. Langley is going to be a big test because it's the outskirts of an MLS market which has been mishandled by MLS ownership and which is rife with supporters looking for alternative options. If Langley works then it's a green light for further GTA and Montreal franchises.

The NFL Toronto people are a minority and yet they get all the attention from CFL fans. Toronto likes betting on games but, it's not a football market. An NFL team in Toronto really doesn't do much for the betting line either. Toronto would have an NFL team if the base was there. The CFL isn't a factor. It's a convenient excuse

Totally agree, I get being a fan of another sport but to go out of your way to try and kill one of the few Canadian leagues treads into the territory of scumbaggery. If it is as bad as they tell us it will die on its own but haters have been telling us that since the 80s and the old girl is still around. Also the quality of the football is far closer to the NFL than many soccer leagues are to the EPL et al.

The topic went from League/team valuations to Toronto/NFL bashing pretty quickly. :haha:

WhipperSnapper's got the right idea. Toronto doesn't have an NFL team because the city cannot support one, and that's basically it. Saying it's because of the CFL is like saying you don't have a Tesla because you have a 1993 Corolla.
First time here? :haha:

On Radio-Canada this morning Quebec City mayor Bruno Marchand open to the city bidding on the 2030 winter Olympics since British Columbia bowed out earlier this month. This would likely be Canada's last chance at getting a 10th large stadium built in the country and providing the capability of adding a 10 th CFL franchise.

Let's get real... there's always another chance.

I see what you are saying about the stadium as a venue for opening and closing ceremonies (a la Calgary 88) but I think the time for that idea has passed. Also, curious about if the question has been answered about where the downhill will be. Unless they do a major project there is no hill in Quebec high enough.

Way too early and preliminary to know could be a provincial bid using mont tremblant. Every Olympics has a stadium for ceremonies that i think would have to be done as peps laval stadium is not suitable

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...zDwwcmmUxBPZ1Z

There are always solutions at hand. A few dozen metres of fill at the summit of Mont Ste-Anne could make all the difference in the world. :)

Of course, to sooth local sensitivities, we could remove the reference to "Englishman" in the above movie poster and replace it with "pur laine Quebecois"....... :runaway:

I wish we would stop wasting our tax dollars on Olympics and Olympic Bids. I do think QC would be a great host though.

All kidding aside, I think QC would be a fantastic venue for a Winter Olympic Games. I would support it.

I believe the mountain in question was Le Massif at Petite-Rivière-Saint-François* in Charlevoix county.

*Think of how awesome that name would sound in international broadcasts!

Apparently Le Massif is missing about 70 metres which is something that could be done to make it suitable for the Olympics.

There are other places that could also be suitable but that don't have ski hills at the moment, like the Acropole des Draveurs also in Charlevoix (Google the name for incredible pictures) and even the Monts Chics-Chocs in the Gaspésie. Though the latter is quite some distance away.

You are correct about Le Massif if my memory serves and also if my memory serves it isn't as easy an engineering project as dropping some fill. Didn't the last talk of a Quebec bid include holding the Alpine events out west or in upstate New York (my memory might be faulty there)

Yes, it may have been raised.

I could get behind a Quebec City bid in spite of my serious misgivings about the IOC, but not if it includes venues in NY State, for example.

If we host them here, let's host them here.

No league is as speculative in terms of franchise valuation as MLS. They expanded from 10 teams to 29 teams in less than 20 years. They rely on ever-increasing expansion fees to boost league revenues and mitigate losses. Their other revenue sources (tv, jersey sponsors, stadium naming rights, gate revenue) simply do not justify their values at this point.

A day of reckoning is likely coming when those expansion fees dry up..unless the league can significantly increase their revenues at that point.

Sports franchise values are overwhelming pinned on growth forecasts. MLS growth forecasts continue to be strong due in part to the US hosting the 2026 World Cup and the assumed knock-on affects of that event. If billionaires continue to want to buy-in to the league then valuations will continue to reflect that.

See above.

This has been said here for the past five years and yet the league continues to march on, growing and growing and growing...

and right now Edmonton's CPL team is in danger of folding or relocating after a year of league ownership. Not exactly an ideal situation.

I agree 100%, especially since the alpine events figure so prominently in the Winter Olympics.

In fairness, with a totally new league, you'll probably have a dud team or two. I'm sure they'll try again with Edmonton if the current iteration ultimately sinks.

There's a few mitigating issues with FCEd but one of them is territorial rights and the ownership of the Faths. The CPL has had interested parties approach them for the team but they were offered mostly low-ball offers of around $1M whereas the league values the team and market at $9M. A lot of that value comes down to the ownership structure of the league as it relates to CSB and CSA.

If the league starts with seven/eight teams and only one is in an ownership bubble then that's probably not too bad. Edmonton will get sorted out eventually, whether it's folding the team temporarily or forging forward with what's there now. There's obviously appetite in Edmonton for soccer. The rest of the teams all seem to be more-or-less fine from an ownership standpoint.

Soccer just doesn't seem to do well in Edmonton.

The Brickmen of the 80's
The indoor Drillers
Multiple teams playing at Clark Stadium

Not sure what the winning formula is here but it hasn't worked in multiple leagues and decades.

Edmonton has been great at supporting the MNT and WNT games, though.

One off's are good here, sure. But anything that seems to be a seasons worth of games has failed for multiple reasons (poor ownership, attendance, lack of interest, etc.).

Me thinks the CPL is gonna have to take a loss on this one if they want to sell the team. If I was a prospective buyer, there's no way I would pay 9 million for the Eddies, Edmonton market be damned. :haha:

Sell the team for a loss and let the owner spend the remainder on the team.

^ In some respects taking over a "distressed goods" team could be harder than an expansion startup because the well is already poisoned, so to speak. I almost wonder if it might make more sense for the CPL to exit Edmonton for a few years and try again later once everything is firmly in place, rather than a desperation move to keep the lights on for the existing franchise.

2030 Olympics

Quebec or Ingenious Nations in BC

That's quite the pickle for Trudeau. OoO ... A truly Canadian Olympic split between Quebec and BC!


(since this is SSP .... I know the province of BC has decided not to financial support a games in 2030)

Hopefully they don't bid at all. Between IOC corruption and the amount of money that gets dumped into the Olympics I don't Canada to even start paying the fees to put a bid in. We have much bigger issues going on in our country that could benefit from the money instead of this.

Speaking of TV ratings the BC Lions and Calgary Stampeders over the weekend outgrew every single other TV show in the country including the NFL, Leafs, Raptors at over 750000.

https://3downnation.com/2022/11/09/2...-to-last-year/

2022 CFL Semi-Final Sunday TV ratings down 27 percent compared to last year

There was lots of competition for the Canadian Football League on television during its Semi-Final Sunday this past weekend.

The three-down league started playoffs on the same day as the NFL was playing the majority of its Week 9 schedule, while the Toronto Maple Leafs and Toronto Raptors were both in action.

Canadian quarterback Nathan Rourke led his Lions to a decisive West Division Semi-Final win at BC Place to record the day’s No. 1-rated sports broadcast. Rourke completed 22-of-30 passes (73 percent) for 321 yards with two touchdowns to headline a 30-16 decision over Calgary. Rourke drew more attention on TV than any NFL game, plus he beat out the Leafs and Raps.

The 1 p.m. eastern time NFL games across CTV brought in an average audience of 545,900, while the 4 p.m. ET matchups netted 455,900. Puck drop for the Maple Leafs’ 3-1 victory against the Carolina Hurricanes was at 5 p.m. ET on TSN and drew an average audience of 512,000. The Raptors’ 111-97 loss in Chicago started at 6 p.m. ET with 310,700 viewers watching across Sportsnet’s national channels and Sportsnet One.

Sunday Night Football needed overtime in Kansas City to decide a winner between the Titans and Chiefs with the home side prevailing 20-17. Patrick Mahomes produced 509 yards of total offence as 368,000 watched on TSN and 285,600 on CTV2, with 653,600 onlookers in total.

Thursday Night Football featured the undefeated Philadelphia Eagles beating the Houston Texans, improving to 8-0 with 513,100 viewers on TSN and CTV2. Monday Night Football featuring Lamar Jackson and his Baltimore Ravens defeating New Orleans 27-13 drew an audience of 443,700 on TSN.

Semi-Final Sunday TV ratings 2022:

Hamilton at Montreal — 516,200
Calgary at B.C. — 753,500

Average: 634,850

2021

Montreal at Hamilton — 684,000
Calgary at Saskatchewan — 1,061,000

Average: 872,500

2019

Edmonton at Montreal — 626,900 (RDS 405,000)
Winnipeg at Calgary — 1,100,800 (RDS 75,000)

Average: 863,850

2018

B.C. at Hamilton — 697,800
Winnipeg at Saskatchewan — 1,280,000

Average: 988,900

2017

Saskatchewan at Ottawa — 975,000
Edmonton at Winnipeg — 1,128,000

Average: 1,051,500

Does the 2022 numbers include RDS? If not that average I assume would be much higher

Those TV numbers for the CFL are disappointing.

In 2022, the east semi-final drew 110,000 less viewers than 2019 - 516,000 before RDS compared to 626,000 before RDS.

The west semi-final drew a whopping 450,000 less viewers than 2019 - 753,000 vs. 1.1 million.

The overall numbers for the regular season have also declined from 2019 (the last pre-covid season).

Combined with the lowest attendance in the past 50 years and it hasn't exactly been a banner season for the league.

Personally I would like to see Ambrosie go i have found cfl 2.0 to be a complete money drain and time waster that has generated zero additional interest in the game from New Canadians which was the target audience. The handing over of everything to TSN since 2007 has made the game presentation and promotion extremely stale and poor. The league needs another Marc Cohon as commish as league was in much better health under his leadership and he understood who to cater to to draw the average cfl fan in to watch the product.

There's a report out that Netflix wants to buy a sports league and put it on their platform.

https://frontofficesports.com/netfli...eagues-rights/

That would do a lot for exposure if they considered the CFL. But there'd be so many logistical things that would have to be done for that to work. The teams who are community owned and the teams that are privately owned would all have to agree to give up ownership I imagine.

Not sure how that would all work. Just speculation on my part.

Its tough to gage value of each team. Saskatchewan and Winnipeg are probably worth 150 to 200 million a pop. Hamilton edmonton Ottawa and Calgary probably around 50 million a pop. Bc 15 million and montreal and Toronto probably only 5 million. I am not sure Netflix wants just a domestic Canadian league though as that would be a harder sell as a draw for international subscriptions