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I hope you didnt think I was calling you a racist or xenophobe, but I think you can agree that a huge percentage of the anti immigration/"Minute Men" crowd definitely fit that bill.
The world is a complicated place, but to me immigration isn't a terribly complicated issue. I've driven all across this country, from San Diego to Sandusky, we've got lots of room for lots and lots more immigrants. Just drive around in Phoenix and look at all of our empty lots, I wish we had more immigrants in our city, creating interesting ehtnic neighborhoods, opening tasty unique restaurants, working their butts off at jobs Im too lazy to do. If you or I were living in squalor in Mexico, we'd probably break US law and sneak in too. I don't think that makes the immigrants bad people, its the law thats the issue, not the people. We need to figure out a way to 1. allow more people in, and 2. set up a guest worker program for those who just want to work and return home. But it seems silly to me to say "Well our current laws are broken and silly, lets spend a lot more money, time, resources and effort trying to enforce them." |
Hoover, do you really think it is about race, or do you think it is about class?
We don't want a bunch of poor people in our country that we have to support, nor do we want a bunch of criminals. That's not to say all illegals are true criminals (aside from the fact that it is illegal), but if you have to lump together the good with the bad to keep out the bad, it's an unfortunate necessity. Every country has immigration laws, and most of them are aimed to limit the number of immigrants to those that are better off. All other things equal, I'd pick a more wealthy immigrant to give citizenship to over a poorer immigrant. Just as you probably enjoy and favor your brother that can pick up the check at dinner when it's his turn or split a case of beer with you, over your brother that's always asking you for money or is the mooch of the family. I don't get why people always have to pull the race or xenophobe card... to me that's hypocracy. You don't support racial profiling, yet you "profile" anyone that may be in support of the immigration laws as a racist? Here's another "idealistic inscription" (or saying): United We Stand, Divided We Fall. This partisan bullshit in the country right now is so bad, those on the Left and those on the Right are causing everything to crumble. |
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I can understand the concern about immigrants being a leach on Social Services, an issue that didn't exist as much in the Golden era of Immigration as US Social Services were far more limited. I don't have the answer for that, but the first idea that comes to mind if perhaps some sort of system in which once you get your citizenship you sign an agreement waiving your access to Welfare and the like for 5 years or something. Quote:
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Plus Im a pasty white red headed guy, Im not too worried about a Mexican stealing my identity :P EDIT: VVV I haven't seen any numbers that bear that out. In fact most prominent Hispanics, Hispanic groups, and Hispanic community leaders are calling for boycotts of AZ and canceling events here. If you want to deny a racist undertone to anti immigration fervor, go for it. You're not helping your cause, you're making yourself look silly. Since the days of "No Irish need apply" and before xenophobia has always in part been a racial issue. |
You are aware that there are a lot of hispanics which support this, do you not? Are they racist too?
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70% of Arizonans support. 51% of the US favor, while only 39% disapprove. |
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But I'm glad you backed up your argument with points and didn't just say something was ridiculous out of hand...oh wait, you didn't do that at all. |
It shouldn't surprise me one bit that 70% of Arizonans are in favor of the new law. McCain won the state by the same margin. People here elect an endlessly worse series of buffoons to the Statehouse every time. We are 50th in virtually every measure of social progress and most of Arizona is fine with that.
So spare me those stupid statistics of popular opinion. I know what it counts for here and what it's ultimately worth. Nothing. "What's right is not always popular, what's popular is not always right." |
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Here's a quote from a major league baseball player I saw on ESPN.com: "It's a bad thing," said Baltimore shortstop Cesar Izturis, born in Venezuela. "Now they're going to go after everybody, not just the people behind the wall. Now they're going to come out on the street. What if you're walking on the street with your family and kids? They're going to go after you." This guys is a complete moron and has the mind set that I've seen expressed over and over from the opposition. He thinks, although there is no way in hell that this will happen, that "they are going to go after you" if you're simply walking down the street with your kids. And what the hell does he mean by "going after everybody, not just the people behind the wall"??? I'm assuming he means the border fence/wall, in which case we obviously don't go after people behind the wall. As if our entire police force is going to suddenly drop everything they normally do and suddenly become like the Nazi SS and go after the illegals (Jews). Remember that game "telephone" where you get into a circle with a bunch of friends and the person at the beginning says something into their neighbor's ear, then that person says what they heard into their neighbor's ear and it goes around the circle until it gets to the end and the end person ususally says something completely ludicrious, no where near what it started out as? That's like what's going on through the opposition. No one is doing their own research, they're just listening to what their neighbor is saying about it and by now most people are just thinking and saying nonsense. It went from "this law is basically the federal law already in place" to "If a police officer even sees a Latino walking down the street they're going to run after them, beat them with their billy club and throw them in jail. I'm against this law and hope it goes away simply because I want all those morons out there to just shut the hell up. |
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The whole idea that we don't want to bring in unskilled labor is ridiculous and shows how much people misunderstand economics. This country was largely built on the backs of immigrants, and this city has been as well. I'm sorry to call b.s. on people who don't think cheap labor is a good thing, but it is. What people are really angry about is the welfare system, they hate the idea of someone being paid to sit at home. The sad thing is, its poor Americans who sit at home and collect welfare, much more so than immigrants. The last paper I saw that studied the subject found that males over 18 years old who were citizens were employed about 83% of the time (this was a 2004 paper so that numbers would be different). I believe the rate of employment for immigrants who are here legally was 89% and for those here illegally it was 91%. Also, when immigrants have access to services, they access them at a lower rate than Americans do. I think they had those jobs because they worked, and unfortunately too many Americans don't
Crime rate is another false assumption. For adults without a high school education, Americans were committing crimes at a rate almost five times the rate of illegal immigrants. I have never found a single scientifically conducted study that concluded that illegal immigrants committed crimes at a higher rate than Americans in the same demographic. I can give you the link to anyone who wishes to read them. I find America's current immigration laws insulting to our heritage and a sad sign of American greed. They are designed to keep out the poor who wish to work their way up in the world. My great-grandfather was an immigrant, he worked as a cook and was poor, but he was given a chance. His sons fought in WWII, and my father was given the opportunity to go to college and to be well off, and so was I. Other immigrant groups were not always popular, but we gave them a chance. Those who were minorities suffered more than others from racism and xenophobia. Now we write laws to prevent people from having the same opportunities many of our ancestors had, the opportunities that gave us the successes many of us have today. As a culture we quietly accept the cheap labor they provide, then gullibly allow them to be scapegoated when it's no longer convenient for us. Too many Americans stand on their high horse saying "illegal is illegal." It's illegal because we have laws that make it illegal to access the opportunities that many of us now benefit from. For years we didn't care because we liked the poor, cheap labor, and now we have this selfish view that we can just change our minds. Leaving the border wide open is not a valid solution for many reasons. But I don't accept that poor immigrants no longer have a place to be welcomed in this country. Anyone who hides behind the lies that are perpetuated about immigrants, or believes that the well off and educated should be welcomed and the poor denied, I think is selfish and a coward. If that's the America that the people of this country want then I want no part of it. |
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When you'd like to have a discussion at the adult table, let us know. Otherwise its best to zip it. |
as the population grows, the economy will inevitably grow as well, but this doesn't tell the whole story. the more important statistic is gdp per capita aka the standard of living. i dont see how low skilled immigrants make the per capita gdp higher, in fact everything points to the contrary. and as we already have 300 million people (enough to defend ourselves and have global power), and 10 percent unemployment, i see no real reason to continue immigration at all at the moment, including for people in the high tech industry.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14972466 |
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In response to DowntownDweller, you miss the whole point of why I said that. I'm not saying flippantly saying I wish to abandon my country, nor am I literally saying so. Maybe I could have been more specific in my response, but my post was getting long enough as it was. I believe that what makes this country great are the ideas that America was founded upon. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men were created equal." Not just Americans, or wealthy people, or smart people, all people. This is an idea that we as a country have struggled with since our inception. At times we have failed but in the long run I believe we have done what is right. I hope that we continue to struggle with this idea. It has allowed America to do great things, to be a great country that people will risk their lives to come to. But if, as I said before, we now only wish to be a country who welcomes the privileged few, and shut out those we who already have so much decide we don't want, then I think one of the great ideas that America was founded upon is dead. That is what I want no part of. I've worked with poor families and kids since I moved to this city, as a teacher and in ministry. I know a lot of them are undocumented even though they don't say it. I watch them work hard to get an education, I've seen kids as young as 13 who work to help support their family. I've seen them volunteer their time and resources to their community. There are parents who work like dogs and live in ghettos to give their kids a chance. It's not everyone I meet, but it's a lot of them. They are more American than a lot of "Americans" I know. A lot of people make these same people out to be criminals on par with rapists and murderers, even if they were carried across before they were old enough to remember, because they crossed the border. We can handle this problem fairly, and we can move forward with an immigration policy that protects and honors what America is about. I hope everyone can look at the big picture and not see this as a black and white issue, but recognize there are a lot of things that brought us to this point. There is room for blame on all sides. Some people can call me a bleeding heart, but I did my best to research the issue with an open mind and come to my own conclusion. What too often gets spewed from self-serving politicians is rhetoric at best and lies at worst. I'll concede there are negative impacts from people crossing the border illegally, and I think there's a responsible way for people to pay for those crimes. Respectfully, I hope anyone who has an opinion on this issue will take the time to investigate why they hold the views they hold and be willing to at least concede that each side has valid points. |
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The issue isn't about immigration, (and it is definitely not about race, don't be played) it is about undocumented peoples migrating into the US at anytime and the problems, social issues that arise from it. And yes I do believe that 99% of the migrants good hard working people willing to risk their lives to escape from terrible conditions back home or come here to a strange foreign land just to make a living. Immigration is great, after all, every human being has migrated here, (including the Indians/Native Americans). It is the arrival of anybody from anywhere with no way to track it where the problem arises. If the new migrants have no documents, then they'll never be able to attain a good high paying job. They will continue to live in the shadows, afraid to contact the police, organized crime (protection fees, extortion, money laundering schemes), working low wage jobs, living in ghettos, paying off Coytote fees, possibly taking up second "jobs" that may or may not include illegal activities just to make ends meet. Many Hispanic/Latinos actually support enforcement of immigration laws. How are they to move up and advance in society if many of their people cannot attain good jobs and nobody even knows who they are or who is here. For the betterment of their people, their cause, their political pull, it is in their interest for immigration reform and border security. This is not a racial issue, despite the attempts of the opposition to turn at least half the population against the other half. The law wasn't created because the state legislature hates "brown" people (last time I checked, latino isn't a race). As for the racial profiling claims, if one has been stopped for a crime and they don't have ID, can't speak English, cannot produce SSN, then they should probably be detained until we do find out who they are (post 9/11 reality), this has nothing to do with race, but lets not be ignorant that AZ straddles an international border so many of the arrests will be people from S. of the border and not undocumented Australians. If the Feds would enforce the laws already written, then none of this would have occurred. The good thing that'll come from AZ's new laws is that it'll force the hand of the Federal Gov't to actually tackle the immigration problem. As quoted from CNN, most of AZ's law is word for word from the Federal law. |
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Is anybody interested in a copy of Paolo Soleri's City in the Image of Man. It's a GIANT book...like maybe 12" x 30" or so. The library is throwing it out. I'll hold on to it if someone wants it.
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^ Yes, that sounds really interesting. :)
I like big books and I cannot lie...no other brothers can deny... :D --don |
You want me to hold on to it for you Don? You can pick it up whenever you're around downtown in the evenings.
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So Sheriff Joe has to announce today if he wants to run for Governor. If he decides to, by law he has to step down as Sheriff. I don't think he will decide to run but I sure am praying he does. It would mean we'd finally get rid of him as Sheriff, investigations could be launched to clean up MCSO, and even if he did get the GOP nomination, I think Terry Goddard would clean his clock in the general election, so ole Joe would be out of public office for good. Sadly his handlers probably realize this as well and will advise him not to run.
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^ Agreed on all counts.
Glynn, check your PM. :) --don |
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^ True, and the far right is already claimed by Bud Mills. :)
--don |
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...id=7HMfBB-tmFa
His traditional will-he-run exercise ended the same way as the previous ones. |
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This is like the 2004 presidential election on a smaller, slightly-more idiotic scale: We don't want someone who knows how to fix the state, we want someone who's going to continue to make it legal to harass the brown people. Brewer doesn't concern me, as I don't think she'll win the primary. I'd be more worried about pitting Goddard against someone like Buz Mills. |
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EDIT: VV Welp I sent their campaign an email about it, we'll see if they respond/care. |
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That, and the air of superiority crap from his staffers is going to kill Goddard's campaign in the long run. They're grossly overestimating the intelligence of the average Arizona voter. |
immigration realities
While I'm still trying to get over Hoovers veiled threat that those who don't agree with him had better zip it, I thought I'd give those not sure what to think a tad bit of direction.
The sad truth is, and Don would agree with this despite having a different take on immigration: What most Whites, most educated Asians and certian better off Hispanics and Blacks have no realization of is that there exits an entire other world underneath theirs they have no connection to. Unless you've seen it and touched it personally you can only make conjectures about these issues and speak in generalities. There can really be no such thing as a scientific study done on crime and illegal imigration. It would be like trying to pick up a fish in a bath tub full of ky jelly. I can talk about the war in Iraq even though I haven't been there but there are limits to how certain I can be about any of those topics. Unless you've known several personaly, as I have, and have some kind of idea as to how they are situated and conditioned you are really just having a political discussion about immigration and not a substative one. |
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2. Your argument that unless you have personal experience with a situation you can't weigh in on it is ridiculous. By that logic movie critics shouldn't talk about films unless they've directed one themselves. 3. I've known many illegal immigrant, one of my best friends through High School and college (who now lives in Uganda) and his entire extended family were in this country illegally for about 15 years, I knew them all fairly well. So I guess that 'point' of yours gets piddled away too. |
I know a lot of us are fans of SimCity on here so I thought I'd show you the new IBM city management game that is supposed to be a more complex, more adult version of SimCity.
http://gizmodo.com/5530030/ibm-cityo...the-real-world |
^^^ Cool. We'll find out soon how good it is.
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New York (New Jersey really) was just granted the 2014 Super Bowl at the new Giants/Jets stadium. Bad news for us in the Valley, it would mean the next possible time UofP could host is 2015 though if other new stadiums come online (Im not sure if there are any in the works or not) another AZ Super Bowl could get pushed back further.
Arizona actually pulled its bid from the 2014 game which is fine as due to the Giants new building and all the surrounding negative publicity in AZ we likely wouldn't have gotten it anyway. I do hope we can get another Super Bowl and don't have to wait over a decade between them like we did last time. The more big events like this we can host the better chance Phoenix would have down the line of hosting things like Worlds Fairs and Olympics like I like to dream of. |
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Phoenix (Glendale, which is much farther away from Phoenix {really Scottsdale} than the Meadowlands is to Manhattan and Newark Airport) probably won't host another Super Bowl for quite some time because there isn't much of anything in the entire west side of Phx in terms of lodging and entertainment. Until this is addressed, I wouldn't count on a game anytime soon. According to Google Maps: From Wild Horse Pass, which hosted a Super Bowl team, to U of P is over 36 miles, up to 1.5 hours in traffic! |
I thought they were not even trying for the 2014 super bowl and putting all the eggs in the 2015 basket.
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^ Phoenix won't get another Superbowl until SB 1070 is reversed by the legislature or struck down by the courts.
In fact, there's growing evidence that the exodus from Phoenix has accelerated. I predict another 10% drop in sales tax revenues in fiscal year 2010 as the economy continues to retract and perhaps a 5% loss of population just this year alone, for the first time in history. According to the Census Bureau, Arizona's population influx declined from 188,000 per year in 2005 to 12,000 last year, in 2009. That's a 90% drop in immigration to Arizona. SB 1070 and the other shenanigans might just be the straw that broke Arizona's already wounded economic back. --don |
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If people believe they can make a living anywhere, they'll move there and as long as CA is next door with the high cost of living, AZ will continue to attract people. While I do agree that the population growth has slowed significantly in the past two years, I disagree that this is a permanent trend. Don't forget that the Earth's population is growing at 70 million/year, so even if AZ doesn't receive one migrant, natural growth alone will continue here. |
Affordability + Sunshine= Growth. It's very simple.
The only people that SB 1070 will keep away are mental midgets like Michael Moore and Kanye West. We should all be thankful they don't plan on entering our great state. |
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Now we are driving off convention and tourism business. 200,000 more jobs are at risk, according to the travel and tourism industry. More and more countries, cities and states join the boycott on Arizona every day. People vote with their pocketbooks and feet, and Arizona does not have a monopoly on sunshine and affordability. When you make Texas look like a liberal pansy (which is what Arizona is doing right now), then Texas becomes a mighty attractive alternative, not to mention having two larger world class cities, each of which has almost twice the size of Phoenix's rather pathetic economy (metro area GDP). Right now, Arizona's not generating any jobs to draw any immigrants. Why should anyone move here? The only thing we will attract is white retirees and ignoramuses who want to move some place without those damned furriners messin' things up. *sighs* http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...1984983575.png Web Source: http://www.bea.gov/regional/REMDchar....cfm#chart_top --don |
I can almost guarantee that if you had lived here in the late '80s and early '90s (I don't believe you did), that you would have been screaming to anyone that would listen that Arizona was near its death bed. Guess what? It recovered (and people like you moved in). We boom and we bust, but our booms are much longer and much stronger than our busts. Do we need to diversify our economy? Certainly. The same can be said for many a metro region.
What I would consider myopic thinking is someone that can't envison things turning bad when they're going good (think someone living above their means with an adjustable rate mortgage in north Scottsdale in 2005) and one that can't envision things turning good when they're going bad (think of yourself today). If anything, SB 1070 will help improve our broken school system long-term. Our job situation is showing signs of life (I believe we added nearly 20,000 jobs in April). You're drastically overrating the influence of the mass liberal media's hysteria regarding boycotts (while ignoring buycotts). Saying we make Texas look like a liberal pansy is comical and untrue. Small Government, an entrepreneurial spirit (Libbies wouldn't know much about that), sunshine, affordability, and no threat of natural disasters will continue to be a major draw to more than "retirees and ignoramuses who want to move some place without those damned furriners messin' things up." (Cute Libbie 101 line though). I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you think Arizona is terrible and that we're circling the drain and you're clearly miserable here... then move. Really. It's that simple. Do you go to a party and complain the whole time about how boring it is yet stay until lights out? Not everyone is having a hard time being successful here. Not everyone is unhappy. Not everyone thinks our state has no future. Only the eternally pessimistic tend to be so myopic. |
^ I've been here since 1993. Arizona was still recovering from the 1991 recession, but that was very mild compared to the current recession. Now we've gone and made it worse.
And just for the record, since you want to personalize things, we didn't have an adjustable rate mortgage in north Scottsdale in 2005. Our jumbo was fixed with a very low interest rate, because our credit was then quite good. Not that this has anything to do with the subject at hand, and this is particularly low blow on your part, but that's because you can't rationally refute the points I made previously so you trot out the ad hominem including describing me not once, but twice, as a "libbie." I salute you, sir, for helping keep rational discourse alive. Please continue drinking the kool-aid and giving up your constitutional rights so big companies can make more money. Telling people whose opinions you don't like to just move out isn't going to help Arizona, either in the short-term or the long-term. A lot of people in Arizona are hurting right now. Try not to be so smug... --don |
Didn't claim that you had an ARM in north Scottsdale. Said those that did were living above their means and not thinking ahead properly.
Also never said I want those with differing opinions to move. Rather, I stated that it seems illogical for those that are unhappy to stay in the same place that makes them unhappy. When it comes to smugness, take your own advice. |
Not only are you intellectually dishonest, but now you have resorted to false statements. Since rational debate is not in your bailiwick, let me stoop to your level:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...sam_douche.jpg By the way, I'm not referring to you. Really, I'm not. *sighs* --don |
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