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-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

thewave46 Dec 12, 2022 6:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrison (Post 9813517)
I wonder if Onex it's ULCC arm Swoop and dissolves it to focus on WestJet exclusively. I can see Flair surviving as it's the oldest of the currently operating ULCCs and not tied to a 'parent' airline like Swoop is to WestJet.

Onex will likely keep Swoop to zealously defend the ULCC space, even if it loses money to do so. Keeping the other guy on the defensive means that they're weakened. Even if Flair survives, it keeps Jetlines/Lynx from entering the space permanently.

Keeping the Westjet brand less tarnished is the idea.

At this juncture, Onex's strategy seems to be:

Westjet: Mainline North America service, with some (mostly summer leisure) intercontinental service via YYC. Mostly competes with Air Canada and Porter (soon)
Swoop: ULCC-fighter. Mostly competes with Flair/Lynx/Jetlines/any aspiring ULCC.
Sunwing: Leisure, with sun focus. Mostly competes with Air Canada Rouge/Air Transat

By keeping the brands separate, they minimize the brand dilution and can tailor their models to each market.

SFUVancouver Dec 12, 2022 7:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9813530)
Westjet: Mainline North America service, with some (mostly summer leisure) intercontinental service via YYC. Mostly competes with Air Canada and Porter (soon)
Swoop: ULCC-fighter. Mostly competes with Flair/Lynx/Jetlines/any aspiring ULCC.
Sunwing: Leisure, with sun focus. Mostly competes with Air Canada Rouge/Air Transat

By keeping the brands separate, they minimize the brand dilution and can tailor their models to each market.

Perfect summary. This is textbook hotel group brand positioning in airline form.

IHG (select brand examples)

Intercontinental brand for corporate account business travel
Crowne Plaza for up-market travelers (but not luxury/boutique)
Holiday Inn & Holiday Inn Express for mainstream & more value-conscious travelers (respectively)

whatnext Dec 12, 2022 7:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver (Post 9813562)
Perfect summary. This is textbook hotel group brand positioning in airline form.

Except the economics of the airline business are a bit different. It is clear Canada has too many airlines now chasing too few dollars with these latest new entrants. Will be interesting to see who fails first.

SFUVancouver Dec 12, 2022 7:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 9813565)
Except the economics of the airline business are a bit different. It is clear Canada has too many airlines now chasing too few dollars with these latest new entrants. Will be interesting to see who fails first.

True, but my response was acknowledging that the summary of ONEX's airline brands was correct and well communicated. Totally agree that there are currently too many airlines currently trying to carve out businesses in the Canadian market.

hehehe Dec 12, 2022 7:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9813174)
It is a decrease. And not a small one.

BA was daily 469 seats to LHR in S22. Next year it will be 331 seats. That’s 30% less seats/week in S23.

WS was daily 320 seats to LGW in S22. Next year, BA will be 6x weekly ~330 seaters. Could be less as they have lower density B772s as well. Assuming it’s a 332 seater, that’s 11% less seats/week.

And this is assuming AC keeps an identical schedule as last year and upgauges one of their runs to the B77W like they did last summer. If they don’t, it’s an even bigger drop in seats. I don’t have the AC details but maybe nname can chime in.

The only way S23 to LON won’t be a decrease is if AC massively upgauges one or both of their flights to the B77W for most of the summer.

Looks like I was wrong then. Either way they'll be able to survive on 4 daily flights to London :)

ninjakafi_81 Dec 12, 2022 8:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hehehe (Post 9813598)
Looks like I was wrong then. Either way they'll be able to survive on 4 daily flights to London :)

BA could always reinstate their second daily LHR-YVR flight (BA86/87) if they want to add a bit more capacity.

hollywoodcory Dec 13, 2022 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 9813190)
ICN increased slot for S23, and WS applied for the slot for YYC-ICN. Maybe they haven't got the approval yet?


https://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20221121000607

Maybe WS obtained slots for both ICN / NRT and went with whichever slot worked best for their ops. The two were obvious choices of first destinations in Asia.

Maybe they'll randomly announce it in a month or so similar to how AMS came about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calfan12 (Post 9813200)
Yes & I think WestJet will see how the Calgary YYC - Tokyo NRT 3x weekly Spring & Summer flights go before adding another Asia nonstop at some point on WS Boeing 787.

(If) WestJet were to add Seoul ICN,they're going to have to reduce the YYC - London LGW to 4x weekly to make room for ICN.

WS doesn't need to cut any frequencies to add ICN at something like 2-3x weekly. But it certainly wouldn't be ideal.

thenoflyzone Dec 13, 2022 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9813833)
Maybe WS obtained slots for both ICN / NRT and went with whichever slot worked best for their ops. The two were obvious choices of first destinations in Asia.

Maybe they'll randomly announce it in a month or so similar to how AMS came about.



WS doesn't need to cut any frequencies to add ICN at something like 2-3x weekly. But it certainly wouldn't be ideal.

I think there will be no WS/ICN announcement for S23. As you said, they applied for the slots at both NRT and ICN and chose service to NRT. That seems like the most plausible timeline of events that transpired. If they did plan on launching ICN, I think they would have announced it last week, with all the other routes out of YYC. Why wouldn't they?

hehehe Dec 13, 2022 3:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9813848)
I think there will be no WS/ICN announcement for S23. As you said, they applied for the slots at both NRT and ICN and chose service to NRT. That seems like the most plausible timeline of events that transpired. If they did plan on launching ICN, I think they would have announced it last week, with all the other routes out of YYC. Why wouldn't they?

Unless they’re waiting for some sort of approval or something there’s no way they’d launch ICN next summer. And the whole point of ICN is connections, so if they were to launch evening flights just like every other route ICN wouldn’t really work out. NRT at least has strong enough O&D to western Canada.

thenoflyzone Dec 13, 2022 9:22 AM

That's twice now I'm reading on airliners a rumour of a potential AC YUL-TUN run commencing in S23. Would be AC's 4th African destination from YUL, after CMN, ALG and CAI.

AC is getting 2 A330s in the next couple of months, and there is some room in the sked for a 3x weekly service to somewhere from YUL.

Dominion301 Dec 13, 2022 2:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hehehe (Post 9813135)
:haha: I don't even think it's a decrease in seat capacity compared to S22 on YVR-LON, or if it is, only by a pretty small amount. Covid screwed over YOW more than any other airport. People complain that YEG has little service because of YYC but YOW is a whole other level.

With regard to YEG being shafted by AC/WS, as we all know very well, all of these airlines are purely into profits and are not charities to give service to smaller Canadian cities. If there's some sort of a market that's apparently a goldmine, one airline or the other will eventually jump into it. Even when AC had much less international YVR service many years ago, YVR had a ton of foreign airlines for this reason.

As for YOW there's certainly a market for Europe. Wasn't LH going to take over FRA pre pandemic?

Yep they were and then instead opt for their flanker brand to go into YHZ and YYC - airports that both already had FRA service.

As for YVR-LON, even if seats are down 20% in S23, that still pales in comparison to a 100% decrease in seats.

Coldrsx Dec 13, 2022 4:26 PM

Porter Airlines announces Edmonton as latest destination

TORONTO / December 13, 2022 - Porter Airlines is adding Edmonton to its network, with flights between Toronto Pearson International Airport (YYZ) and Edmonton International Airport (YEG). Edmonton is the newest destination for Porter’s new Embraer E195-E2 jet service, which currently includes Vancouver, Ottawa and Montreal.

Porter is giving Canadian economy travellers the ability to fly with an airline that provides an enjoyable economy air travel experience for every passenger.

The initial flight schedule starts in February 2023 with one daily flight, increasing to three daily flights in April for additional flexibility. Connecting flights with Ottawa and Montreal will also be available.



Toronto Pearson to: Flights begin: Average daily, non-stop round-trips:
Introductory roundtrip fares start at:

Edmonton (YEG) Feb. 14, 2023 3 as of Apr. 19, 2023 - $250

https://www.flyporter.com/en-ca/abou...nation+2022+12

Airboy Dec 13, 2022 5:31 PM

Porter into YVR on Feb 7th.

hehehe Dec 13, 2022 6:38 PM

I'd assume YYC and/or YWG are coming next in the next few weeks?

YYCguys Dec 13, 2022 7:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hehehe (Post 9814476)
I'd assume YYC and/or YWG are coming next in the next few weeks?

I wonder how many loyalty customers Porter will entice from Westjet with their more amenity laden flights!

MonctonRad Dec 13, 2022 8:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YYCguys (Post 9814525)
I wonder how many loyalty customers Porter will entice from Westjet with their more amenity laden flights!

With WestJet essentially abandoning eastern Canada, this leaves a vacuum for Porter to step into in any event.

WestJet service to Moncton is now down to 3x weekly to Toronto. The next step is complete abandonment. Porter has 2x daily service to Billy Bishop from Moncton (one with an intermediary stop in Ottawa). If Porter added a flight to Pearson from Moncton, I could see a lot of people flocking to the Porter service to make connections to the west. The free beer would just be a bonus. :)

Dominion301 Dec 13, 2022 8:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad (Post 9814577)
With WestJet essentially abandoning eastern Canada, this leaves a vacuum for Porter to step into in any event.

WestJet service to Moncton is now down to 3x weekly to Toronto. The next step is complete abandonment. Porter has 2x daily service to Billy Bishop from Moncton (one with an intermediary stop in Ottawa). If Porter added a flight to Pearson from Moncton, I could see a lot of people flocking to the Porter service to make connections to the west. The free beer would just be a bonus. :)

I would bet a million bucks they will eventually fly YQM-YYZ. If I were to hazard a guess given the expected delivery rate over the next 6 months:
-YYC will be next with the same 3x daily
-YWG or YHZ (take your pick to the order) 2x each
-YOW and YUL upped to around 5-6 daily each to better compete with AC
-YYT daily
-then a non-YYZ YOW/YUL or two nonstop (likely YVR to start and maybe an upgauge to a YHZ flight).

I could see YYT-YOW fairly early on now that AC aren't flying the route in summer 2023. The PR before the YEG announcement seemed to indicate YOW and/or YUL will get something other than YYZ before the YOW & YUL jet bases are set up.

Also it took at bit of time, but they're now offering YYZ-Maritime routings with YOW/YUL connections (also YEG/YVR-Maritime double connects where feasible). Intro one-way promo of $88 on YYZ-YOW/YUL-YHZ. YYZ-YOW-YFC is priced at $199 and YYZ-YOW-YQM is priced at $210.

casper Dec 13, 2022 8:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9814613)
I would bet a million bucks they will eventually fly YQM-YYZ. If I were to hazard a guess given the expected delivery rate over the next 6 months:
-YYC will be next with the same 3x daily
-YWG or YHZ (take your pick to the order) 2x each
-YOW and YUL upped to around 5-6 daily each to better compete with AC
-YYT daily
-then a non-YYZ YOW/YUL or two nonstop (likely YVR to start and maybe an upgauge to a YHZ flight).

I could see YYT-YOW fairly early on now that AC aren't flying the route in summer 2023. The PR before the YEG announcement seemed to indicate YOW and/or YUL will get something other than YYZ before the YOW & YUL jet bases are set up.

Also it took at bit of time, but they're now offering YYZ-Maritime routings with YOW/YUL connections (also YEG/YVR-Maritime double connects where feasible). Intro one-way promo of $88 on YYZ-YOW/YUL-YHZ. YYZ-YOW-YFC is priced at $199 and YYZ-YOW-YQM is priced at $210.

Disappointing they still have not announced YYJ and YXE. Porter has far more to gain from connecting the smaller cities to a network than these ULCC airlines do offering point to point.

nname Dec 13, 2022 9:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9814613)
I would bet a million bucks they will eventually fly YQM-YYZ. If I were to hazard a guess given the expected delivery rate over the next 6 months:
-YYC will be next with the same 3x daily
-YWG or YHZ (take your pick to the order) 2x each
-YOW and YUL upped to around 5-6 daily each to better compete with AC
-YYT daily
-then a non-YYZ YOW/YUL or two nonstop (likely YVR to start and maybe an upgauge to a YHZ flight).

I could see YYT-YOW fairly early on now that AC aren't flying the route in summer 2023. The PR before the YEG announcement seemed to indicate YOW and/or YUL will get something other than YYZ before the YOW & YUL jet bases are set up.

Also it took at bit of time, but they're now offering YYZ-Maritime routings with YOW/YUL connections (also YEG/YVR-Maritime double connects where feasible). Intro one-way promo of $88 on YYZ-YOW/YUL-YHZ. YYZ-YOW-YFC is priced at $199 and YYZ-YOW-YQM is priced at $210.

Maybe there's some clues from PD's flight numbering.

Here is a list of most flight numbers I found for flight into YYZ. The number are sorted by departure time.

Code:

PD102  YUL-YYZ 7:50am
PD106  YUL-YYZ 9:35am
PD112* YUL-YYZ 12:00pm
PD120* YUL-YYZ 4:20pm
PD126  YUL-YYZ 8:20pm

PD150  YOW-YYZ 8:25am
PD156  YOW-YYZ 9:20am
PD162* YOW-YYZ 11:55am
PD170* YOW-YYZ 3:55pm
PD182* YOW-YYZ 8:10pm
PD188* YOW-YYZ 9:25pm

PD302  YVR-YYZ 6:15am
PD306  YVR-YYZ 2:30pm
PD318  YVR-YYZ 10:55pm

PD400  YEG-YYZ 12:55am
PD402  YEG-YYZ 6:30am
PD408  YEG-YYZ 4:20pm

* Do not operate on all days

So 1xx is Ontario/Quebec flights. Maybe 2xx are Atlantic Canada?

Looking at the gaps, PD reserved enough number for 15x daily flights to YUL, 20x daily to YOW, 10x daily to YVR, and 5x daily to YEG.

Noticed YVR have the entire 3xx series. Maybe for more BC destinations from YYZ? Or more flights from other hubs to YVR?

Since the DH4 flights all uses 2xxx series now, I guess new US flights will be 1xxx... Maybe YVR/YEG/YYC/YWG will each get 100 numbers. So the next thing to watch for is whether YYC start with 500 or 450 or 350...

hollywoodcory Dec 13, 2022 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9813848)
I think there will be no WS/ICN announcement for S23. As you said, they applied for the slots at both NRT and ICN and chose service to NRT. That seems like the most plausible timeline of events that transpired. If they did plan on launching ICN, I think they would have announced it last week, with all the other routes out of YYC. Why wouldn't they?

I don't actually believe WS will launch ICN in S23. The only reason it wouldn't have been announced with the others is if they didn't actually get confirmation of slots.

I do believe at some point ICN will be served by WS. Maybe as connecting for the rest of Asia.


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