[Halifax] Hospitals & Healthcare
 

I wonder if the Health Authority consulted with the specialists that will be serving both inpatients and outpatients. What a god awful place to put an outpatient department. :yuck:

Near major higways, close to a large population. No worry about fog blanketing a helipad.
A relative died at this hospital and it is not in the middle of a city, it is close to major roads and serves a larger area
https://www.southtees.nhs.uk/hospitals/james-cook/
location : https://www.google.ca/maps/place/The...2!4d-1.2164318

If it's targeted to rural folks coming in for treatment, a pretty good location. Has good connections to the highway system. Not a great location for townies.

It leaves a lot wanting in terms of a "healthy" place to be in between appointments or while waiting. At least, when I am waiting downtown I'm able to get to a park or something other than the in-house Tim Hortons while I spend my day trying to avoid legionella-infested water.

Is fog a concern? Bayer's Lake is at a higher elevation, which I'd think would make it more susceptible to all but very low-lying fog. In any case, this is an outpatient centre, so I doubt a heli-pad is needed.

The current QEII is also near major highways--much nearer than its equivalents in other cities. Compare it to Toronto's hospital district or Montreal's General. Except during rush hour, you can get to the 102 within minutes. I think it's way more more important for the outpatient services to be easily accessible to vulnerable populations via transit and on foot (especially for those without easy vehicle access) than it is to cut off ten minutes of driving time for someone coming from Tantallon, just because that person has a hang-up about driving into the (very easy to drive in) city

As for location, the idea that Bayer's Lake somehow serves more people seems totally wrong. Taking the population on the peninsula and to points east, there are about 250,000 HRM residents who will find this location further away, not closer. if the government wants to build a clinic to more convenient to rural people, fine, but it shouldn't come at the expense of an urban clinic.

Unless you are immunocompromised there is no need to avoid 'legionella-infested water'.

When it is foggy in Halifax it is clear in Bayers Lake and clear in Bedford. The regional plan envisages significant development close to Bayers Lake.
For us on the east side of the harbour outpatient services are available at Cobequid and Dartmouth General.
The issue is best discussed looking ahead 10-20 years as well as understanding the map in the regional plan which shows how insignificant Halifax peninsula will be in terms of population. Development of the MSVU lands anticipates thousands of housing units.
The Truro hospital is on the edge of town and adjacent to the 102, better placed to serve the surrounding communities.

Looked at that way, downtown Toronto is also insignificant in terms of population. Moreso, even. But it's still where the primary regional medical services are located. It's nice to serve the surrounding communities, but what about serving THIS community?

If there was any vision at all regarding this stuff, the province would be considering the future transit corridors we're increasingly likely to see along west side of Bedford Basin, leading onto the peninsula and down a future Robie Street ROW of some kind. Sticking a clinic out in the middle of a business park at the edge of the woods ensures it will never be as well served by transit. And since most people who don't or can't drive likely live centrally, we're looking at forcing carless residents to take long, frustrating transit trips, so that suburbanites can shave ten minutes off an easy drive.

If I can be a little less charitable, if someone choose to live in St. Margaret's Bay or Tantallon, they can deal with coming into the city once in a while for services.

I don't think the peninsula is losing population, and one major (the biggest?) regional planning goal is to increase the amount of development there in the future to reduce servicing costs and generally make the city work a lot better. It wouldn't be hard to get the peninsula up to 90,000 people or more just by developing underused land. Because of the bridges and population densities the peninsula is quite central.

I think we may need to wait for undercount-corrected 2016 census numbers to accurately compare but the 0009.00 downtown census tract (below the Citadel from around Cornwallis to Sackville) for example went from 1,984 people in 2011 to 2,357 in the 2016 census. This is comparable to the growth happening in the fastest growing suburban parts of Halifax. I am guessing this growth is going to increase from 2016-2021 rather than slow down.

There seem to be a lot of people, mostly older, who have made up their minds that suburbia is "the future". But for the most part it's not really what younger people want or can afford, and it has been tried out and hasn't worked well. It's not 1974.

This conversation would be better placed in a hospital thread, but what the heck - I'll pile on.

Regarding the future of the VG - wasn't the plan at one point to add on to the Infirmary site at Robie and Bell (formerly occupied by QE High and now by a sort of urban farm)?

So, wouldn't a good plan be to bolster the Infirmary site to cover the peninsula and add the Bayers Lake site to cover the suburbs? It actually doesn't seem like a bad way (economics aside) to get good health care coverage for all...:shrug:

I just added up all the peninsula census tracts, and the growth indicated by the 2016 census was small, but it did grow, by about 300 and some people. I feel as if the peninsula may be overrepresented among areas that were undercounted as well.

More importantly, five years ago, single-family home starts were around 1,000 annually. The last two years they've barely been 400, while peninsula multi-units have spiked, even as the residential vacancy rate has remained low, and in fact is lower on the peninsula than elsewhere. So that indicates accelerating population growth.

I'm not sure how the census tract level data works; it if ever will be corrected or if the data from the last census will be corrected.

Development-wise the peninsula is really two different areas. There's the urban core which is open to development and is attracting lots of development and then there are the stable neighbourhoods which don't see much construction and generally slowly decline in population as household sizes shrink. It doesn't make much sense to add them together.

Major buildings like the Maple are going to have an impact on the numbers downtown. While there was a lot of construction happening during the time when information was being collected for the 2016 census, I'm not sure many of those buildings were occupied yet. I guess the big bump in population will happen in 2017 and 2018, and will show up in the 2021 census. I would not be surprised to see 3,000 or more people living in that downtown tract by 2021 (that is not much more than the rate of growth from 2011-2016). That tract had 1,738 people in 2001, so that is a substantial change.

That is exactly what the Premier announced. The QE2 stays and will be expanded.
I understand Kentville is now the place for knee surgery. Obviously the province doesn't want to spend a pile of money when rational use of existing facilities is a cheaper and more effective answer to our problem. Peninsula hotels have made a pile of money from selling rooms to patients who have to travel in for early morning minor procedures and expecting older people to just accept the risk and burden of travelling to Halifax is mean spirited. Day surgery/examination starts at 8 a.m. The couple killed on the 103 were travelling in for the dialysis of the retired man - 3 trips a week.
The only way to properly understand the issue is to view Google earth and see where the population is now and where it will be over the next 2 decades. If you live in Clayton Park you will arrive at Bayers Lake well before the VG or the QE2. And read the Regional Plan - Bedford, Bedford west and MSVU are the long term drivers of population growth.
I had a colonoscopy in January - at Cobequid. Previous procedures were at the VG. I get to Cobequid just as quick as the VG and without crossing the bridge.
They told me they would see me in 5 years. I needed a heart monitor, so off to the VG and try to find parking and then back to the VG next day. I then had an ultrasound at Dartmouth General - no trip over the bridge. Many procedures/examinations that once were the sole domain of the VG and QE2 are now carried out elsewhere at locations closer to the population. Bayers Lake is just the continuation of sensible policies that should have been implemented long ago. The good news is that the days of blood and urine samples being collected solely at the VG are well behind us, amazing how continuous deficits and an ageing population can force us to improve and rationalise the delivery of healthcare.

I agree! What is a city with out the main hospital!
 

I would love the city to explain more of who this is more convenient for not is who live and work in the north/south/west end or down town!
I remember when the dmv moved to the hell hole (bayers lake) and everyone complained and still some time complain!

Also your removing a big reason why older folks move towards the down town to be easy to hospital and their appointments.

For the sake of clarity, the QE2 is made up of 10 buildings located on two sites; the VG site, and the Halifax Infirmary site

... but it's good for dramatic effect.

Also, it may be a bit much to ask that those coming to a hospital please avoid being immunocompromised.

Look at a map would be a good start.
Then take a compass and draw 5km circles around the VG, the QE/Veterans complex and the Bayers Lake site. Do the same for Cobequid and Dartmouth General.
Then read the Regional Plan and the forecasts for residential growth.
For those off peninsula and to the west and north the new site makes sense, and there area lot more older people living off peninsula than on peninsula.

Not necessary to ask patients to avoid becoming immunocompromised,
just necessary to ask patients who are immunocompromised to avoid the water.

...or, they could fix the problem.

The thing about being immunocompromised is that you may not know it until it's too late. Heck, even something simple such as taking medication for arthritis can lead to a compromised immune system.

The water problem at the VG, they tried to fix it and failed. It will only cease to be a problem at the VG when the VG is gone.

The last time I was in the Dickson Center, a structure built in the mid-1980s, the washrooms there had similar signs advising the water was not fit to drink.

I remain baffled by how safe drinking water cannot be provided in a hospital. Not to mention how they run food service in such a place.

That's a real shame - I can't imagine how it must be to work in that environment every day. Trying to provide a sterile environment for patients while also maintaining your own health must be a virtually impossible challenge.

The real issue, since there has been apparently no plan to fix the problem or replace the hospital, is that this means we are several years -perhaps decades- from a solution. Very sad situation indeed.

That is exactly what the master plan envisions. The "community outpatient facility" was always proposed to be built on the city outskirts, to accessible to people from outside metro. The "specialized outpatient facility" is proposed for the Infirmary site. There's been no announcement yet but, given the likelihood of an election, I'd say there's a good chance we'll hear more soon. There's been much speculation the existing CBC TV building is the most likely site but that would depend on reaching agreement with the feds.

All of the moving parts that are the QE project can be found on the website.

!!
 

Ahhh... I hadn't seen that before. Thanks!!

The changes at Cobequid and expansion at Dartmouth General and then the Bayers Lake building will bring great change. John Young is chair of the Health Authority and he knows the problems, just a matter of a change of attitude and chunks of cash. McNeil hasn't been afraid to shake things up and when he quits in 2 years he'll walk away a proud man. (And I have never voted Liberal )

Perhaps a hospital thread should be created and those posts removed from this thread?

Or we could stop second guessing the experts :yes::yes:

Well you know what they say about experts:

expert definition -> ex - a "has-been"; spurt - "drip under pressure". :)

Experts? Like yourself? :haha:

Honestly, I see nothing wrong with discussing the government's philosophy regarding health care and its related facilities, nor to I see it as a positive step to completely accept the opinions of those in positions of authority without question.

However, I do think this exchange is in the wrong thread and has diluted the conversation about the building for which this thread was started.

Enough already. If you wish to discuss it further, then start a thread about hospitals/health care. :2cents:

This series of population maps is useful, especially the 1991-96 and 1996-2001 maps

http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/mcfadde...nge%20maps.pdf

And this map :
http://www.halifax.ca/regionalplanni...rtationRP5.pdf from http://www.halifax.ca/regionalplanning/FinalRegPlan.php

This travel demand map from the Integrated Mobility Plan shows where most of the traffic is:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img922/4640/Azslhd.png

It doesn't really suggest to me that an outer suburban location is central in the sense of being close to where people live, where they travel, or being a place where the city's infrastructure converges. The most "central" spot in the Halifax metro area is probably somewhere in the north end of the peninsula.

Or on part of the Shannon Park lands. That would be a workable spot for an outpatient facility IMO for both city and rural patients.

The Cobequid facility serves Bedford and Dartmouth. The maps I linked to provide better information on population. HRM had a map which showed the as-of-right development areas and the possible units. I cannot find the map online but I printed a copy a few years ago. The new facility is looking ahead to a greater population to the west of the peninsula.
Outpatients now also go to DGH, Cobequid and Kentville depending on the required treatment/examination.
Shannon is supposed to be residential to boost the centre population.

Shannon's general area would make a fine location for such a facility or even a replacement full hospital, though. I was a passenger in a vehicle crossing the MacKay yesterday and got a good look at the cleared lands, which now look quite different. Could not ask for better access.

There is a huge amount of safe, bottled, drinking water in the hospital.
For specific patients, the issue is water droplets in the air, running a bath, having a shower.

For those interested in the potential and approved residential development off peninsula view this RP+5 document : http://www.halifax.ca/council/agenda...3cowAgenda.php

Go to item 3 ' Presentation ' and especially pages 48 - 51 of the presentation.
http://www.halifax.ca/council/agenda...03cow3pres.pdf

This shows 'Inventory of Suburban serviceable lands' - Attachment A page 21 : http://www.halifax.ca/council/agenda...31203cow3i.pdf
Attachment shows over 10,500 possible dwelling units from Herring Cove to Rockingham transmitter lands. Many of the units will be for families.
Most the critics of the site of the proposed Bayers Lake outpatient facility seem to be young single persons who are not aware of RP+5.

Will the BL Outpatient facility replace or duplicate services downtown? I'm confused as to the overall scope of the Capital Health long term plan. If these services will also be available downtown for residents, it's a very different story to me.

I'm not sure anyone really knows yet. The problem for me is that the province apparently did solicit city staff's opinion on this, and when staff told them this was a terrible location (even when considering rural and suburban access, there are far better locations) they were ignored.

And now no one seems to be able to say exactly the scope of this, and to what degree, if any, this will replace city centre services. The provincial government is completely playing politics with this, and I have no doubt they'll do whatever they believe is in their best electorally, rather than what's best for citizens. After Mike Savage expressed doubts yesterday about the location, McNeil rejoinded today with: "He's the mayor of Halifax; I'm the premier of Nova Scotia." The provincial government is at best disinterested in What's best for Halifax. I've got no faith that they'll retain all the critical services downtown if they think they can swing a few votes by moving them to Bayer's Lake.

Rural access anyway won't be solved by moving the hospital around the city. Whether you drive 3 hours or 3 hours and 10 minutes doesn't matter much, and there is no single point in NS that is accessible to everyone.

And as far as the suburbs go, if you put it in a suburb, it will be accessible to that one but not to the others. Most of the suburbs are on the periphery of the metropolitan area.

Nothing new under the sun I guess. For as long as I can remember there's been an "us vs. them" attitude and jealousy in rural NS when it comes to the city. It is much worse there than any other province I have lived in. In BC, there is more investment in the largest city and there is less jealousy.

It is all rather stupid because the economic trends that favour the city and make it hard for rural areas to grow go far beyond NS, and are not something the NS provincial government can change much by moving investment around within the province.

We don't know what transpired between HRM and the province, best we ignore any short comments in the media.
We do know that the days of the VG are numbered, not sure what the plans are for the Dickson.
Not too many years ago almost everything outpatient took place in Halifax. As I wrote before, my experience in the first few months of this year took place at Cobequid, DGH and Dickson. Outpatient services often require a person to show up at 7.a.m.
I cannot get transit to Cobequid for that time- do we seriously expect elderly people to jump on a bus - and Bjerke talking about cycling to a facility shows how crazy and myopic he is. Does he think staff cycle to and from our medical facilities ? ( My wife worked shifts at a facility and the night shift started at 11.30 p.m. forget transit - a car was essential ) Outpatients use a cab, or a spouse or friend to drive to a facility. Go to any facility and the great majority of people are over the age of 50.
Most of the suburbs are not on the periphery, they are off peninsula and they will get larger each year.
I posted this link :
http://www.halifax.ca/council/agenda...31203cow3i.pdf Attachment 'A' is entitled ‘Active and/or planning applications 2013’, and look at the area from Herring Cove to the west of the peninsula and north to the Bedford boundary.
I count a possible 11,250 dwelling units and that does not include 10,610 units in Bedford West and the 2,409 units in Bedford South.
And then there is further development in the Hammonds Plains corridor.
Not to mention that the Centre Plan is hoping to attract just 25% of future population growth in HRM.
What is best for Halifax may not be the best for residents in HRM. Looking ahead the growth will take place off peninsula.
If Bjerke and/or Ritchie tried to push a site near the Lacewood terminal why don't they come out and say so ? Tell the public what site the staff proposed and stop hiding the information - silence and cryptic comments do not serve the public interest.

Regardless of demographics, whether it's in the city or out of the city, Bayers Lake is a terrible choice.

For those who are pedestrian oriented, there are only 2 bus routes that service it right now, and there are very few, if any concessions for pedestrians (no sidewalks off the main section of Chain Lake Dr, very few crosswalks etc). I work in an office near the BL Access Nova Scotia, and use the bus to get there. Every day there are hordes of people that have to dodge traffic to get across the street to get to and from this super inconvenient location. Again, no sidewalks, no crosswalks. If they're going to build it there, then they should be responsible for all the infrastructure required to make it accessible to people who don't have access to cars, either. Dedicated buses, sidewalks, etc.

Also, it's embarrassingly badly littered out there. It looks awful. Very few public garbage receptacles, two recycling facilities, a general lack of care... I mean, it's pretty bad everywhere, unfortunately, but especially in BL.

All of what you decry is the fault of HRM.

They created the BLIP.

They allowed it to become a retail big-box development.

They failed to upgrade the road infrastructure.

They failed to build sidewalks.

They failed to provide adequate transit.

They failed to provide adequate litter receptacles, cleanup, and other amenities.

Despite all of that, it is a huge success for most of the retailers located there.

I suspect if people need to go for a MRI there they will, just as they will go to Canadian Tire to buy what is on sale this week.

HRM has $50 million to spend on a palatial library and $15 million to spend on a skating oval that gets limited use. They have no problem building 4-pad arenas at $40-$50 million a pop. And let's not even mention the bike lanes that most residents do not want and get very limited use. But they cannot put sidewalks, litter receptacles, and proper roadways in the biggest business destination on the Halifax side of the harbor? This is what I mean when I go on about wasteful spending by HRM and their failure to focus on their core responsibilities.

Sure, BL is horrible planning, top to bottom, and that's on HRM. But it becomes the province's problem the minute they put a public service facility there. If the infrastructure isn't there, and they can't put it there, then they need to reconsider location.

No, they need to tell HRM to step up and do their job. HRM is awash in cash and needs to stop wasting it on frills.

A library that had FOUR TIMES the expected visitors in its first year is not a frill. Libraries are not frills in general, unless you're a fan of Trump or the Koch brothers.

I really dislike Bayers Lake. Interesting that HRM had no idea that a new health facility was going to Bayers Lake; I wonder how much the facility really was planned, or if they just needed an election announcement and popped it out of a hat?

That was erroneous reporting, as HRM was asked and consulted well in advance.

Interesting... the election rhetoric has begun. Jamie Baillie is promising a $2 billion infrastructure rebuild, including a new Victoria General Hospital:

https://www.localxpress.ca/local-new...n-trail-602508

What a clown that guy is.

It makes absolute perfect sense if you want to plunk a hospital into an area that is under serviced by public transit, road infrastructure, has no other "active" transport options (walking, biking, etc), and is already ludicrously congested on both week days and weekends.

Yes, yes, a perfect site for a hospital.

Another crony braindead decision from this crony braindead Government.

HRM was consulted and they said pretty much "anywhere but that garbage Bayers Lake site". And guess where Stephen "Cronyism is my business" MacNeil decided to put it?

Put aside the obvious corruption that they paid 12X the fair market value for the land from a Liberal Party donor. I mean it's a ludicrous decision even without the corruption.