SkyscraperPage Forum

SkyscraperPage Forum (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php)
-   Canada (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18)
-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

zahav Jul 8, 2020 7:36 PM

I don't think the new airline will be successful, it is horrendous timing, and the issues for running flights like this is different than what Nolinoir normally operates. If it didn't work for Canjet, Skyservice, Harmony, and all of the other airlines that targeted leisure travel, then it probably won't work for them either. Basically their other business has probably dried up due to the economy so they are trying this. Just because they have a proven specialized charter and cargo service doesn't mean they can do this

thenoflyzone Jul 8, 2020 7:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 8974857)
Basically their other business has probably dried up due to the economy so they are trying this. Just because they have a proven specialized charter and cargo service doesn't mean they can do this

No.

They've been planning this since 2018. Their "other business" is doing pretty good.

But I do agree with you that it will be hard for them to make this new venture work.

hollywoodcory Jul 9, 2020 2:23 AM

AC updated its August long haul schedule and the following additional routes are planned to resume:

YYC-FRA
YUL-LIS
YYZ-BCN
YYZ-LIS
YYZ-CDG

Domestic, US and Latin America hasn’t been updated yet.

J81 Jul 9, 2020 2:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 8974857)
I don't think the new airline will be successful, it is horrendous timing, and the issues for running flights like this is different than what Nolinoir normally operates. If it didn't work for Canjet, Skyservice, Harmony, and all of the other airlines that targeted leisure travel, then it probably won't work for them either. Basically their other business has probably dried up due to the economy so they are trying this. Just because they have a proven specialized charter and cargo service doesn't mean they can do this

This is not the first time Nolinor has dipped their toes into the leisure market. They flew cruise ship passengers to Miami and Ft Lauderdale for Celebrity cruises. Seemed to work ok until covid.

Djeffery Jul 9, 2020 4:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J81 (Post 8975615)
This is not the first time Nolinor has dipped their toes into the leisure market. They flew cruise ship passengers to Miami and Ft Lauderdale for Celebrity cruises. Seemed to work ok until covid.

That worked because it was Celebrity chartering full flights. They also used Canadian North. But Celebrity stopped doing that a couple years ago.

Dominion301 Jul 9, 2020 7:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 8974857)
I don't think the new airline will be successful, it is horrendous timing, and the issues for running flights like this is different than what Nolinoir normally operates. If it didn't work for Canjet, Skyservice, Harmony, and all of the other airlines that targeted leisure travel, then it probably won't work for them either. Basically their other business has probably dried up due to the economy so they are trying this. Just because they have a proven specialized charter and cargo service doesn't mean they can do this

CanJet and Harmony failed due to incompetence (at the old C6 how does being the owner's daughter make you suddenly qualified to run an airline?) and not knowing how to properly run an airline, and the rich owners decided they didn't want to lose any more money. Skyservice failed as they mostly flew for tour operators who jumped ship.

Sunwing since transforming from a tour operator into the airline has been a huge success. They're run professionally.

Norlinor are professionals. I expect them to succeed.

Dominion301 Jul 10, 2020 3:19 AM

Here's a cool pic of an AC 77W getting main deck cargo unloaded:

https://assets.skiesmag.com/wp-conte...-1400x2100.jpg

J81 Jul 10, 2020 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery (Post 8975802)
That worked because it was Celebrity chartering full flights. They also used Canadian North. But Celebrity stopped doing that a couple years ago.

Celebrity didnt charter anything. Tour operators did in conjunction with Celebrity to get tourists on their ships relatively hassle free. Exactly how sun destination flights work most of the time. Theres no reason at all for them to fail at this. Quebecers love going south in the winter and as long as we get over the Covid hysteria by the winter they should be fine.

thenoflyzone Jul 10, 2020 1:00 PM

The main difference being that this time they aren’t partnering with a tour operator. They are going at it alone. A much riskier endeavour.

kwoldtimer Jul 10, 2020 1:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J81 (Post 8976717)
Celebrity didnt charter anything. Tour operators did in conjunction with Celebrity to get tourists on their ships relatively hassle free. Exactly how sun destination flights work most of the time. Theres no reason at all for them to fail at this. Quebecers love going south in the winter and as long as we get over the Covid hysteria by the winter they should be fine.

"(w)e" including the travel/health insurance industry?

J81 Jul 10, 2020 8:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8976752)
The main difference being that this time they aren’t partnering with a tour operator. They are going at it alone. A much riskier endeavour.

It doesnt say anywhere in that article they arent. Even if that is the case if they are having a difficult time filling seats they always could partner with a tour operator. Regardless Nolinor is a pretty solid company and i havent ever heard of them doing anything half assed so i expect them to be successful. Hopefully the passenger experience they provide puts butts in seats and theyre able to expand outside of QC.

Djeffery Jul 10, 2020 8:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J81 (Post 8976717)
Celebrity didnt charter anything. Tour operators did in conjunction with Celebrity to get tourists on their ships relatively hassle free. Exactly how sun destination flights work most of the time. Theres no reason at all for them to fail at this. Quebecers love going south in the winter and as long as we get over the Covid hysteria by the winter they should be fine.

However you want to split the hair, it adds up the same. Celebrity sold those packages through their special Canadian website, or you could use a travel agent. Flights operated from many different cities. The point is, the airline wasn't responsible for selling seats (in fact, you couldn't buy just a seat to Ft Lauderdale at all), they weren't at risk. Someone else was taking the risk, doing the advertising, and selling the packages, the airline got their fee whether the plane was full or not. Unless you know this airline has a risk sharing (or risk taking) tour operator partner, then I don't think the Celebrity thing is a good example. As I said, Celebrity stopped doing this a while back, it's not a Covid related thing.

thenoflyzone Jul 10, 2020 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J81 (Post 8977300)
It doesnt say anywhere in that article they arent. Even if that is the case if they are having a difficult time filling seats they always could partner with a tour operator. Regardless Nolinor is a pretty solid company and i havent ever heard of them doing anything half assed so i expect them to be successful. Hopefully the passenger experience they provide puts butts in seats and theyre able to expand outside of QC.

Several La Presse articles mention they want to simply sell seats. Their target market is the young backpacker crowd that doesn’t do all inclusives. Apparently their president isn’t excluding going with a tour operator if his initial plan doesn’t work.

Either way, you cannot undercut AC, TS and sunwing with only a 158 seat B737, when your competition is using 189 seat 737s, 190 seat A321s or even widebodies.

Like I said, this is by no means a slam dunk, even with a tour operator.

Some industry experts are already sceptical. Read for yourself. In French.

https://www.lapresse.ca/affaires/202...ur-affaire.php

wave46 Jul 10, 2020 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8977475)
Several La Presse articles mention they want to simply sell seats. Their target market is the young backpacker crowd that doesn’t do all inclusives. Apparently their president isn’t excluding going with a tour operator if his initial plan doesn’t work.

Either way, you cannot undercut AC, TS and sunwing with only a 158 seat B737, when your competition is using 189 seat 737s, 190 seat A321s or even widebodies.

Like I said, this is by no means a slam dunk, even with a tour operator.

Some industry experts are already sceptical. Read for yourself. In French.

Fortunately Norlinor has the core business to fall back on, so they're not betting the whole farm on the leisure travel thing.

I remain skeptical, but I didn't think Flair or Norwegian would last either and here we are.

I'm looking at this the way Microsoft looked at the Zune. Neat sideshow, great if it works, but Windows and Office are paying the bills.

zahav Jul 11, 2020 6:58 AM

Ya the issue isn't whether or not Nolinor will get taken down by this, they have a viable business. My point was that this leisure airline experiment is bizarre, there is so much competition and to make money will be really hard for them.

J81 Jul 11, 2020 1:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 8977475)
Several La Presse articles mention they want to simply sell seats. Their target market is the young backpacker crowd that doesn’t do all inclusives. Apparently their president isn’t excluding going with a tour operator if his initial plan doesn’t work.

Either way, you cannot undercut AC, TS and sunwing with only a 158 seat B737, when your competition is using 189 seat 737s, 190 seat A321s or even widebodies.

Like I said, this is by no means a slam dunk, even with a tour operator.

Some industry experts are already sceptical. Read for yourself. In French.

https://www.lapresse.ca/affaires/202...ur-affaire.php

Interesting. I hope it works out for them. I usually take the word “expert” with a grain of salt. Ive heard “experts” in my line of work say some pretty ridiculous things. The timing is definitely a little odd for the launch though ill agree.

I dont think theyre at a disadvantage with the -400 either. AC and WJ use the 319 and 737-700 for much of their sun flights and make it work. Those -400s wouldve been dirt cheap to acquire too. Perhaps a little more expensive to operate but the acquisition costs probably outweigh the operating costs. We’ll see though. I wish them well. Theyre an interesting company id like to see around more into the future.

hollywoodcory Jul 11, 2020 6:45 PM

WS August schedule should be loaded tonight, but it looks like Transborder flying is being reduced compared to July.

So far I see:
YYC-LAX 3x weekly (down from 4x)
YYC-ATL 4x weekly (down from daily)
YYC-LAS 2x weekly (same as July)
YVR-LAX 3x weekly (down from 4x)
YYZ-LGA 5x weekly (down from daily)
YYZ-MCO 1x weekly (same as July)

I also hear more 787 flying is expected too. (Probably additional YYC-YYZ frequencies).

whatnext Jul 11, 2020 7:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 8976574)
Here's a cool pic of an AC 77W getting main deck cargo unloaded:

Yikes, I hope those packages were all tied down in flight. Also looks like a recipe for lots of damaged interior panels, cardboard notwithstanding.

Djeffery Jul 11, 2020 7:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 8978087)
Yikes, I hope those packages were all tied down in flight. Also looks like a recipe for lots of damaged interior panels, cardboard notwithstanding.

Previous pictures have shown cargo netting strapped down into the seat tracks.

hollywoodcory Jul 11, 2020 9:30 PM

Looks like WestJet is resuming Europe flying in mid-August. Seeing 3x weekly YYC-LGW from August 20 (presently).


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:33 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.