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-   -   Second cities (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238331)

Crawford Mar 29, 2019 5:33 PM

National boundaries aren't arbitrary. Most Americans can't even enter Canada.

MonkeyRonin Mar 29, 2019 5:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The North One (Post 8523392)
Which is an arbitrary government line. Regions usually go beyond such lines.


A national border isn't exactly an arbitrary line. There might be common transnational cultural, historic, and geographic traits in the region; but a border still has very real implications - which is why Toronto exists as the "first city" of Canada and not the 1st/2nd city of the Great Lakes.

mousquet Mar 29, 2019 5:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite (Post 8523409)
To me the Chinese government plays too large role in the economy to call Beijing a true second city. With connections to the government so crucial to successful business management, I wonder what city actually has more power at the end of the day.

I heard the big guys in power over there were the absolute key in that matter.

Prior to the current guy who's now a lifetime president or something, like the dude even altered their constitution to make sure he would remain in office to his death (that could inspire Donald Trump in a wrong way, lol), there was some kind of Shanghai team to manage their communist party. But they're gone now.

The current lifetime president and his own friends may be more of Beijing individuals.
So Shanghai may go slower in the coming years. That's hearsay over here.

Everybody's closely watching China anyway.

JManc Mar 29, 2019 5:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8523323)

NY State has no second city; the three next largest metros are all roughly the same size.

Not true. Buffalo is widely regarded as NYS's second city even if the metro is now neck and neck with Rochester. It's also the only other city with professional sports teams. A legacy of its grander past. It's just that Buffalo declined so much over the past 50 years to where the gap between it and New York City is huge.

Crawford Mar 29, 2019 6:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 8523467)
Not true. Buffalo is widely regarded as NYS's second city even if the metro is now neck and neck with Rochester.

Buffalo, Rochester and Albany all have about the same metro population at this point.

And Buffalo might as well be Boise if you're downstate. It's probably still very important west of Albany, but the main connotation downstate is SUNY Buffalo.

Wigs Mar 29, 2019 6:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 8523467)
Not true. Buffalo is widely regarded as NYS's second city even if the metro is now neck and neck with Rochester. It's also the only other city with professional sports teams. A legacy of its grander past. It's just that Buffalo declined so much over the past 50 years to where the gap between it and New York City is huge.

exzaaaaactly ;)

Buffalo-Niagara airport is also much larger than Rochester with more destinations and significantly more passengers (5 million vs. 2.4 million).

Also, since Buffalo has been on a bit of a roll lately with the huge growth of the Buffalo Niagara Medical campus (new children's hospital, new UB Med school etc.), startup companies, banking (M&T) still growing, tons of redevelopment occurring in the downtown core, it has now outpaced the Rochester Metro in GDP or Gross Metropolitan Product.

Rochester has strong institutions, but Buffalo is the 2nd city of NY State.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=nsq7

north 42 Mar 29, 2019 6:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 8523252)
Windsor kinda is, since it's part of Metro Detroit. But agree that Toronto is not Midwest, and this isn't a discussion about Great Lakes cities.

Windsor is NOT a part of metro Detroit, it is in a different country and is a core city with its own metro area. It is a part of the Greater Detroit/Windsor Area though.

iheartthed Mar 29, 2019 7:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by north 42 (Post 8523561)
Windsor is NOT a part of metro Detroit, it is in a different country and is a core city with its own metro area. It is a part of the Greater Detroit/Windsor Area though.

No, it's definitely a part of metro Detroit. Without Detroit, Windsor wouldn't be there. Much like Detroit's suburbs. But it is definitely NOT part of the Detroit MSA.

JManc Mar 29, 2019 7:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8523484)
Buffalo, Rochester and Albany all have about the same metro population at this point.

And Buffalo might as well be Boise if you're downstate. It's probably still very important west of Albany, but the main connotation downstate is SUNY Buffalo.

It doesn't matter if people downstate think the edge of known universe ends at Rockland county, Buffalo is still the state's number two city and that has never been disputed and NYC is just as 'far flung' from the minds of Western NY as they are from the downstate. I grew up in the middle of these two cities...~200 miles from each and NYC was always #1 and Buffalo was #2 and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Rochester plays second fiddle to Buffalo and Albany is a big college town.

Wigs Mar 29, 2019 7:20 PM

Toronto is more important to the typical Buffalonian than NYC. It's seen as cheaper, cleaner, much closer and almost as cosmopolitan and exciting as NYC.

JManc Mar 29, 2019 7:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wigs (Post 8523610)
Toronto is more important to the typical Buffalonian than NYC. It's seen as cheaper, cleaner, much closer and almost as cosmopolitan and exciting as NYC.

Yup, there's a lot of back and forth for Bills, Raptors, Jays, Sabers, Leafs games plus shopping and touristy stuff.

north 42 Mar 29, 2019 7:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed (Post 8523580)
No, it's definitely a part of metro Detroit. Without Detroit, Windsor wouldn't be there. Much like Detroit's suburbs. But it is definitely NOT part of the Detroit MSA.

It’s a part of the Greater Detroit/Windsor area, but it’s definitely not a part of Metro Detroit. Both cities grew up together (both sides of the river were settled around the same time) and formed similar industrial economies, especially automotive, but they were always separate, and they have their own suburbs.
We do feel like honorary Detroiters, being so close and tied to Detroit, but we are not Detroiters.

Crawford Mar 29, 2019 7:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wigs (Post 8523610)
Toronto is more important to the typical Buffalonian than NYC. It's seen as cheaper, cleaner, much closer and almost as cosmopolitan and exciting as NYC.

Well, this pretty much confirms my thoughts. Outside the closer part, if Buffaloans believe all this, Buffalo truly is a backwater. ;)

I don't think this is actually debatable. Again, the population and economies of Buffalo, Rochester and Albany are all about the same. Downstate, the biggest local reference is SUNY Buffalo.

Of course there are historical differences, and Buffalo is a legacy cultural heavyweight (its art museum is better than those in much bigger cities like LA, Dallas and Toronto, it has world class parks and cultural venues, far more extensive urban fabric and big city amenities and FL Wright), but you can't really argue population or economy anymore.

All three have around 1 million folks and around the same economic output. Albany's economy has grown faster over the last few decades, closing the gap. Albany has a somewhat better economy, with more tech, govt. and ed. Buffalo is the legacy big city with the bigger bones, and Rochester has the science-corporate legacy, somewhat diminished, but still decent.

iheartthed Mar 29, 2019 8:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by north 42 (Post 8523659)
It’s a part of the Greater Detroit/Windsor area, but it’s definitely not a part of Metro Detroit. Both cities grew up together (both sides of the river were settled around the same time) and formed similar industrial economies, especially automotive, but they were always separate, and they have their own suburbs.
We do feel like honorary Detroiters, being so close and tied to Detroit, but we are not Detroiters.

I think we're saying the same thing. I'm not saying that Windsor is a suburb, but it's absolutely part of the same urban system. The economic, infrastructure, and media ties are inseparable. Windsor is Detroit's Jersey City.

Acajack Mar 29, 2019 8:02 PM

As an outsider (outside NY state and outside the country), Buffalo would clearly be the second city in New York State by a wide margin. I'd guess that would also be the answer from everyone I know here.

iheartthed Mar 29, 2019 8:03 PM

I would consider Buffalo the second city of NYS for cultural relevance alone.

Crawford Mar 29, 2019 8:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 8523685)
As an outsider (outside NY state and outside the country), Buffalo would clearly be the second city in New York State by a wide margin. I'd guess that would also be the answer from everyone I know here.

Probably because historically it was the largest Upstate city, because Buffalo is a border city, next to the dominant Canadian population center, and because sports (hosting "Canadas" NFL team and obviously the NHL).

But I think the biggest reason is legacy. Same reason Americans think Montreal is as important as Toronto, or Rio as important as SP, same reason people think the UK is still a global power.

Steely Dan Mar 29, 2019 8:09 PM

buffalo is new york state's second city because of sports.

believe it or not, around 80%* of the geographic awareness of the average america is due to sports.





(*) i totally made that up, so don't bother refuting it. but it's probably true.

iheartthed Mar 29, 2019 8:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan (Post 8523700)
buffalo is new york state's second city because of sports.

believe it or not, around 80%* of the geographic awareness of the average america is due to sports.





(*) i totally made that up, so don't bother refuting it. but it's probably true.

Buffalo is home to New York's only NFL team.

Capsicum Mar 29, 2019 8:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8523693)
Probably because historically it was the largest Upstate city, because Buffalo is a border city, next to the dominant Canadian population center, and because sports (hosting "Canadas" NFL team and obviously the NHL).

But I think the biggest reason is legacy. Same reason Americans think Montreal is as important as Toronto, or Rio as important as SP, same reason people think the UK is still a global power.

Is it a common perception among the younger generation, though? My guess is that for the generation (Millennials, Gen Z) who grew up in the 21st century century, Torontonians have become more well known stateside -- Drake, Rob Ford.


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