[Halifax] Pavilion (YMCA) and Curve | 2X49 m | 17 & 15 fl | Completed
 

Some initial concept drawings and a website have been setup for this redevelopment. I haven't seen a thread started - so i thought I would start it.

There website link is:
http://www.newhalifaxymca.ca/

heres the article from todays paper:


Plans for CBC, YMCA on view
Proposed redevelopment project includes $22-million fitness centre
By BILL POWER Business Reporter
Wed. May 5 - 4:53 AM


The public is invited to a two-day open house to preview plans for the CBC-YMCA site on the corner of Sackville and South Park streets. (Ted Pritchard / Staff)





A preview of what the YMCA and CBC/Radio Canada have in mind for one of Halifax’s most prominent intersections will be provided at a two-day open house, beginning today.

"We hope to submit a development application to HRM before summer, so this is our pre-application viewing for the general public," Bette Watson-Borg, YMCA president and CEO, said in an interview Tuesday.

A redevelopment of the YMCA and CBC/Radio Canada site, at the convergence of South Park and Sackville streets and Bell Road, has been in the works for a couple of years.

The YMCA plans to open an estimated $22-million recreation and fitness centre at its location opposite the Public Gardens.

CBC/Radio Canada indicated recently options for its broadcast centre beside the South Park YMCA remain under review.

Watson-Borg said the YMCA and CBC are working together on the redevelopment and will bring in a third partner to handle the overall development after it receives clearance from the city.

"It is important for people to understand that the $22 million figure that is being talked about is just for the YMCA portion of a much larger development," she said.

This is the first time the general public has had an opportunity to view plans for the new South Park YMCA and consider architectural renditions of that the project and what it will look like at street level.

"At this point we’re still working on a basic envelope and this is what we will bring to the municipality for approval," she said.

The open house sessions, which run from 7:30 a.m. until 9 p.m. each day at the South Park YMCA, are intended to obtain public input.

People can fill out comment cards and this input will be incorporated into the planning process, said Watson-Borg.

Officials with the CBC were unavailable for comment Tuesday, so it remains unclear if the public broadcaster will continue to operate at the location after the redevelopment.

YMCA officials have been keen to talk about their plans to use profits from the redevelopment to finance a portion of a new complex, which will include a rooftop atrium, major aquatics complex and about 375 underground parking spots.

A fundraising campaign is also planned to help cover the capital costs of a new South Park YMCA.

Additional details are available at www.NewHalifaxYMCA.ca.

( bpower@herald.ca)

I wonder if this goes through, would the CBC consider consolidating radio and tv production into one regional hub.

I use the gym at the Y, so I'll check it out tonight while I'm there and let you guys know what I see.

Just caught a glimpse of this on the news, and at first glance it looks fantastic.

Hope someone has soon renderings or images from the open house soon.

deleted - double post

I hope the images on that website are very preliminary...the architecture looks pretty bland and I was hoping they'd do something more interesting with the Sackville/South Park corner (aside from the question of whether plate glass in a gymnasium is a good idea).

Have some renderings of the exterior of the development been posted? I have only seen interior renderings of the new YMCA.

Somebody please get some pics up of this... I'd do it myself if I was in Halifax.

They haven't been posted yet - I saw a quick shot on the news tonight, but can't yet find any online. It looks like the building keeps some of the qualities of the CBC building - round corner - is a podium base with 10-12 stories stepped back on top. Looks good at first glance. But article in the coast already states that they are proposing double the height than what is currently approved for the site.

This is (or at least could be) a great project. The YMCA is proposing to sell the development rights above the podium to a developer to help finance their project. This is a great model and this type of thinking should be encouraged by the city.

Well, they can build up to those heights on the YMCA site but not the CBC site because it is next to the Citadel.

There would be nothing wrong with a well-designed 12 storey building right next to the Citadel, particularly if it steps back at higher levels. If it were up to me I'd also encourage development on the Citadel grounds themselves - it would be good to have some small buildings (maybe four storeys) on the north side of Sackville Street, for example. The edges of open areas like the Citadel should be built up.

The notion that the city should shy away from developing the periphery of public spaces like the Citadel really makes it difficult to bring in enough people to make these places vibrant. The Citadel and Commons are oversized for Halifax and underdeveloped. South Park and Cunard are sort of halfway toward being what we should see around these areas. The city should also be looking at uses for the inside of the Citadel. It is a unique piece of history but it doesn't need to be segregated from the rest of the city.

I checked it out and was pretty impressed (sorry no pictures). Basically it's two buildings on a shared podium, but it looks like there is a large glass atrium in the middle. The CBC building will be torn down but the design will rebuild it almost identical and that I believe will house the new YMCA. On top of those few floors there are about 9-10 floors (13ish total ground to roof) with the same floor plate shape as the CBC building, but set back in each dimension. This building is not stepped, the 9-10 floors would have the same floor plate through out and maintains the same color scheme. In plan view it is stepped so that the South Park side is narrower than the Dresden Row side.

The other building is a darker building with dark red balconies and from plan view has a curved shape to it. This is about 17 floors total ground to roof and will sit about 2 floors shorter than the Martello. It buts fairly close to the Paramount and has balconies all around. It's podium is an angular building with green cladding.

One rendering showed the entire block and it was quite an impressive cluster with the Martello and Paramount worked in. The architect was Micheal Napier. Both Dawn Sloane and Watts (I'm drawing a blank on her first name) were there. The plan is to get approval now then have an RFP for developers. They are open to apartment, condo, boutique hotel and some commercial use.

Sounds really good, thanks for the info.

Its been a big week for development in Halifax!

looking forward to the renderings, thanks for the info all it does is make me want the renders more, lol
sounds like it will be great for the area though.

Yay this should fill in the block nicely! I can't wait to see some pics.

There are renderings on allnovascotia.com but their software doesn't allow me to copy it. The renderings look great, however it sounds like there are quite a few issues to resolve such as height restrictions, property ownership, and finding a developer who is willing to undertake the development. I don't want to sound pessimistic but it sounds like it might take quite a while to resolve all of the issues.

Any chance someone could do a screenshot and then c&p the renderings?

Yeah, just press print screen then copy them into paint.

There was a story on it on the CBC news at 6 webcast for today - the renderings look great.

HRM by design limits the height on this location (pre and post bonus height) to 23 metres, which I think is sad.

No viewplanes on the site; this block and the one next to it with the Martello tower are the only two blocks heading towards SGR (and including the block with the Trillium) where the viewplanes don't cast over them.

I stopped by this afternoon. It does looks quite impressive. I even brought my camera with me to take some pictures of the renderings, but they assured me it was all online now. Not so much.
When I first saw it I did like it, but the more I looked at the renderings I'm not quite sure anymore. It's basically two separate buildings with a strange atrium in the middle. And both buildings have very different architectural styles. The new Y building, now where CBC is is kind of art deco, but it doesn't look like it goes far enough. It wants to be art deco but is not quite there. And the other one has nice materials by the looks of it. But the shape of the building doesn't work on the site. It seems like a big hodge podge of styles. I'm hoping things are still in the works to refine it and that this will not be the finished product.
I'm a bit sad. I normally really really like Michaels work, but this just doesn't do it for me.

Here are the renderings. Eventual source is http://www.newhalifaxymca.ca/

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4008/...82b0fdbd_o.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4056/...5cfe7afc_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3302/...cd0ecd43_o.jpg

I agree that the CBC replacement looks somewhat unattractive. I think the idea is workable but the design just looks poorly executed. In particular I dislike the design of the condo tower on top. The ground floor is also rather plain looking, although I think partly that is a problem with the site - this property is on an important corner but it's on the periphery of the downtown. It's a bit of a hike from Spring Garden and not a particularly great location for retail. It's never going to be a great location because it is surrounded on three sides by public spaces, two of which are semi-pointless. It's also a poor location for a main entrance because few people approach from that direction. It's really an awkward location. Halifax has a lot of those.

On the other hand, I do like the design of the portion where the current YMCA building sits, although I agree the atrium is a little messy looking.

I could see this being a great proposal with some modifications, and I suspect there will be lots of time for those changes before this is actually built...

Wow, this is actually loads better than I expected. I agree the CBC building could be better, but I love the idea of bringing so many new residents to a pretty dead corner. Had no idea it was such an ambitious project. I like that the northern blank walls of the Paramount are covered, and the red and black tower is pretty cool looking. I pass the site on the way to school so I hope I get to see construction begin sooner rather than later. :)

Thanks for posting the renderings. At this point I am pretty excited - it sounds great pending some minor changes.

Wow I actually love this, so much better than I expected!

I agree on both counts. The Paramount is not that bad but those side walls are quite ugly, and the north side is particularly visible since the buildings next door are so short. The Lord Nelson side isn't so bad.

not sure on the building on the CBC building, but i will take it if thats what they want.

I love the last rendering, DENSITY, about freakin time we get density working downtown.

There is some nice height and density there now.. it'll make for a great urban vista looking up an down South Park street, with tall buildings (across from parkland ) in a more or less continuous wall from South to Sackville. Our own little CPW. :haha:

I quite like the look of this proposal. :)

The main thing I would like to see changed is the step-down of the CBC tower. Since it already has a step-back I don't think a step down is also necessairy.

And of course, the headline on the Herald story about this is: "Proposed project too high" (emphasis added).

I just can't wait for the members of the Height Phobia Society to speak out after getting egged on like this... :rolleyes:

Proposed project too high
Public will decide if YMCA/CBC redevelopment can break rules
By CHRIS LAMBIEBusiness Editor
Thu. May 6 - 4:53 AM

The development proposed for Sackville and South Park streets in Halifax is about 14-storeys high — more than twice as tall as city planning guidelines permit.

Drawings unveiled Wednesday show the YMCA and CBC/Radio-Canada properties topped with two towers that could hold about 200 condominiums or apartments. There are also plans for a boutique hotel.

"On the corner, the current (height) allowable is 23 metres; we’ve taken it to 49," said Jim Whitehead, project manager for the YMCA of Greater Halifax/Dartmouth.

"So the amendment that we’re going to be seeking is to increase it from 23 to 49 metres on the corner."

The height limitation is related to view planes from Citadel Hill, "which is predominantly, of course, to protect views of the harbour," he said.

"We’re not impacting on that at all on this side, so that’s part of why we’re going for the amendment on the assumption that, since we don’t impact on that, that it may be an acceptable thing to do to allow this development to go forward."

The YMCA hopes to make an application to the municipality before the summer to amend the height limitations.

Andy Fillmore, the municipality’s urban designer, said it will be up to the public to decide whether the corner building is too tall. Regional council can hold a public hearing to determine if the project has enough "significant public benefit" to justify breaking the height limitations, he said.

"The public hearing becomes almost like a referendum, in that way, on the project itself, and then council will make up its mind whether or not to permit the amendment," Fillmore said.

The tower proposed for just south of the corner will be 75 metres tall, or about 19 storeys. Modelling has shown the buildings "don’t block the view of very much because of the development that’s taken place further south," Whitehead said.

"If anything, we’re going to block views of other developments."

The proposed project won’t do much to stop sun from hitting the adjacent Public Gardens, he said.

"We’ve done some shadowing studies of that . . . (on) June 21, the longest day of the year, there’s a shadow that stretches out for about an extra half an hour and it just takes over a sliver of the corner, but nothing significant, and it’s over by nine o’clock in the morning."

Drawings on display Wednesday showed the broadcaster in a new building where the YMCA is now on South Park.

The CBC hasn’t decided yet whether it will have offices in the project, said Nadine Antle, a spokeswoman for the public broadcaster.

Under the new plan, the YMCA will take up about 71,000 square feet and sit on the corner now occupied by the CBC. If the CBC opts in, it will move to the spot now occupied by the YMCA. Should the broadcaster opt out, the 66,000 square foot space will be opened up for commercial development.

A 6,000 square foot, five-storey atrium will connect the two structures.

"The magic really is this atrium and how it connects and brings all these things together," Whitehead said. "That’s just going to be an amazing space."

The bottom two storeys of the new corner building will mimic the "iconic" art deco look of the present structure, said Bette Watson-Borg, president of the YMCA.

A swimming pool with lanes, a pool with a movable floor and warmer water and a hydro-therapy spa pool are in the plans.

"We’ve tried to create something here that we think has a wow factor," Watson-Borg said of the design created by Halifax architect Michael Napier.

Plans call for 375 underground parking spots and a covered bicycle storage area.

The overall cost will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars, Whitehead said.

"It will likely be in the neighbourhood of 400,000 square feet."

Building a new YMCA recreation and fitness centre where the CBC is now will cost about $22 million. The YMCA, which plans to issue a request for proposals from private developers, is hoping to realize about $10 million from the project, Whitehead said.

"It’s not simply a sell it and then rent back situation. We want to maintain some interest in what’s going on."

The CBC’s situation is similar, he said.

"Their revenue from that development will either be used to be a part of this development or it will be used elsewhere."

( clambie@herald.ca )

There seems to be a lot of misinformation in both the allnovascotia.com and the Herald. The allnovascotia has this as being the same square footage as the Nova Centre when in fact it would only be about 1/3 (I keep hearing 1.2 million square feet for the Nova Centre) whereas the Herald has this YMCA/condo complex as being about 400,000 square feet (http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/1180943.html). The Herald has this as costing hundreds of millions of dollars. Based on the new YMCA portion costing $22 million for 71,000 then it should only be about $125 million (still significant). However, this is all very preliminary since the design is mainly just a concept to get public input.

I like the base of the corner tower... but not the tower so much.

The other tower looks good and I like how it covers the paramount's blank wall as well.

The glass area and the green is butt ugly... it should be red brick (can't believe I'm saying this) or something more fitting.

I think the blue and green are actually pretty cool - the blue has a very maritime theme, as does the green (considering the public gardens across the street).

The stepping down of the tower for the CBC site is pretty interesting, although I don't know if that is really needed if the tower behind is taller.

I think the colour of the building replacing the CBC is a little - well I'm torn on that. I think white would be fine, versus the colour shown in the diagram. I do like the base building for the CBC site - looks very much like the existing building with a few modifications.

I think developers are realizing the value of Dresden Row/South Park block between Sackville and down to Morris - mainly because of the fact it's the only two blocks in that part of downtown not covered by one or more of the view planes.

The two greatest pieces of land in this area - the parking lots (which could have so much potential) are completely covered - so I suspect the best height you might get would be similar to City Centre (so maybe 8 stories - if you are lucky). What a waste.

I personally like this, again the only problem I have is the CBC tower, making it a straight glass tower inset from the bottom 2 stories I think would have looked better. But it isn't bad at all. We should all show up at the hearing to preach that this is NOT to tall.

Hey all, it's been awhile since I've posted...

I actually really like these plans overall. The green and blue are really growing on me as I like the idea of bright colours closer to the street, but I can see how they wouldn't do it for everyone.

It appears that the design already has been modified because the picture shown in the Herald has a black base (where the green was), with a red portion that stays flush with the street and a 'green' roof that extends back to the red and black tower. I'm not sure which is the more current design, though?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/...97238180_o.jpg
(source: http://thechronicleherald.ca/)

I kind of like it. My only real nitpicks are the upper part of the CBC building - not a huge fan of the progressive step back/down like that (the idea is interesting, just doesn't seem to fit with the style of the building), and I was hoping for some retail on the South Park side of the CBC building - there doesn't appear to be any as is. Otherwise the CBC podium is pretty much exactly what I was hoping for (as mentioned in another thread awhile back), and the Y building is unconventional (for Halifax), so it's nice to see. I'm guessing the choice of red, white and black for the Y building is intentional - being official Y colours an' all... and the green and blue will grow on me, I'm sure.

I love the colour, it makes the whole area look more exciting, and engaging. I also like the contrast with the Paramount, which I've always thought looked like a wet cardboard box. I think the set backs are a solid part of the design as well, creating active negative space between the two towers. Fingers crossed on this one!

I read that the current CBC building will become the new YMCA (at least the lower couple of floors will be). The current YMCA would become the condo building since the developer would have to own the land outright so that it can be condo development (I have read that according to Nova Scotia laws in order for it to condo, the land can not be leased from the YMCA but must be eventually turned over and owned by the condo owners).

Does the current YMCA have a residential portion? I wonder if the YMCA will want to continue having a residential portion or just have it as a separately managed hotel or apartment building (the portion on top of the CBC building which would become the YMCA).

There is one rendering that wasn't posted. It showed the view looking up Bell Rd at the new YMCA tower on the corner. That rendering was solid and it looked great. For me it the part on the back that steps down. I think it could work, but in this particular fashion I'm not a fan. I also really like the changing windows in the YMCA tower. Some being indented others protruding from the facade. It's definitely workable.

From this weeks Coast. Also some positive comments posted on the article. http://www.thecoast.ca/RealityBites/...-height-limits

Proposed YMCA/CBC development will break HRM By Design height limits
Wealthy Martello condo owners will be most affected
POSTED BY TIM BOUSQUET ON MON, MAY 3, 2010 AT 1:30 PM

The proposed rebuilding of the YMCA and CBC buildings along South Park and Sackville Streets will require Halifax council to amend height limits included in the HRM By Design planning guidelines for downtown. That amendment would be the first break in the planning policies adopted in 2008.
The YMCA and CBC are jointly preparing a development application to rebuild their respective properties---the iconic Art Deco CBC radio building at the corner of Sackville and South Park Streets, and the 60-year-old YMCA building just to the south, facing South Park.

The HRM By Design rules adopted older height limits for properties facing Citadel Hill. In the case of the CBC building, that limit is 23 metres, with no opportunities for the “bonus” heights that can be awarded to other downtown property owners in exchange for the developers including a variety of “public goods,” like additional parking or affordable housing.

The HRM By Design height limits on the YMCA property is 39 metres, with a “bonus” increase to 49 metres possible. In real terms, that’s likely 10 storeys, with an increase to 13 stories.

On Friday, YMCA president Bette Watson-Borg declined to give specifics about the YMCA’s proposal, saying she wanted a complete “unveiling” of the plans to come at a public open house the organization is holding Wednesday and Thursday (7-9pm, both nights). Watson-Borg says the architectural drawings, by Halifax architect Michael Napier, will include several options for the public to consider.

But, speaking with city staff familiar with the YMCA’s general plans, I’ve learned that the Y intends to ask for the full 49 metres allowed for the present YMCA property under the HRM By Design rules, and also to extend that height all the way to Sackville Street, covering what is now the CBC building---that is, to more than double the HRM By Design height limit of 23 metres for that property.

While exact details of the plan are not yet available, I’m told that it will include some sort of nod to the present CBC building’s façade---either to preserve the existing façade, or to build a new façade reminiscent of it. Also, because of shadow concerns with regard to the Public Gardens across the street, the South Park side of the new building will require “ziggurat”-type street frontage---above the street level, each additional .6 metres of height will have to be set back .9 metres. (The Park Lane building along Spring Garden Road has a similar frontage.)

There’s no doubt that a new YMCA is needed. The existing Y is “aging, not green, not accessible and doesn’t meet the programmatic needs our citizens are looking for,” says Watson-Borg.

And the joint development with the CBC is inspired, as it benefits both organizations. Watson-Borg says the YMCA will not be able to raise enough money through fund-raising alone to pay for the size facility it needs. By bringing in the CBC property, and selling the height bonus to a developer, it can raise the difference. The new building would then house the YMCA facilities, street-level retail, office space and residential housing.

The ceeb, for its part, is presently looking to bring together its formerly separate radio and television divisions under one roof. That means closing its Sackville Street radio operations. One possibility is to build an addition to the Bell Road TV building---the sale of the Radio building might raise enough money to pay for the expansion of the Bell Road building into its parking lot, but that's as yet uncertain.

Another possibility is for the ceeb to lease enough office space to bring radio and TV operations together. Andrew Cochran, CBC’s director for the Maritimes, tells me the CBC is committed to maintaining a downtown presence, and that might mean leasing space in the new Y development.

But no firm decisions have been made one way or another, says Cochran.

The YMCA has discussed the Citadel-facing height issues with Heritage Trust, and the Y’s web site maintains that a “computer model shows that we will not have a negative impact on the view from Citadel Hill or surrounding areas.” That’s probably right, because the new building will back upon the existing Martello condo project, which is 11 storeys built atop the eight-storey Park Lane complex---a new 13 story won't impinge any views from Citadel Hill when there's an 19-storey bind it. (Heritage Trust has not returned a phone call for comment.)

But it’s exactly those Martello residents who will likely be most vociferous opponents of the YMCA plans. The Martello is one of Halifax’s most pricey residences and, if the Y proposal moves forward, owners of the west side Martello units will have their views of the Public Gardens obstructed by the new building.

A recently proposed five-storey addition to the City Centre Atlantic building across Dresden Row from the Martello was opposed by residents of the neighbouring Heritage Way condo project, dozens of whom appeared at a council meeting last month to speak against the development. Despite the objections, Halifax council approved the project.

The media in Halifax are pretty horrible.

The Herald headline is "Proposed project too high". For the Coast it's "Proposed YMCA/CBC development will break HRM By Design height limits".

...and we wonder why the debate starts out with a bunch of people who are focused on height to the exclusion of all else. The height of the CBC condo tower is not even close to being the most important thing about this proposal.

I agree wholeheartedly. The media reports on new developments in Halifax should have a title that is at least neutral in tone, then they can describe the project's pros and cons.

Height is only one aspect of any new development and I think that the other aspects of a proposal should be given value as well.

Not that it'll help, but you could always try a letter to the editor.

I love the view from the 3rd picture. The buildings fit in well with the Paramount and Martello. An exterior color change to the CBC building certainly would help a bit.

According to the allnovascotia.com, Councillor Sloane is supporting this project. That is good to see, hopefully it will help to push this proposal forward. Councillor Sloane feels that this is for the common good in keeping the YMCA on the peninsula.

I think that there is a lot of agreement on this point. I hope that it will go ahead in the near future since it will mean more people living close to downtown Halifax and it will result in new YMCA facilities.

It really only improves the area...

To me this is a perfect site for some height. There is nothing around it, but open space and other tall buildings and, if what they say is true, the Gardens won't be left in the shade and we'll be adding much needed density to the Peninsula. Seems like a no brainer.

On the design, I'm not such a fan of the way the Y building angles in at street level (angle on the tower is great), but it looks like from the Herald picture that may have changed. Hopefully on the CBC portion where the Y is going they'll use some see through glass. Since there is no retail there, if the glass is opaque, it'll be pretty dull whereas if you can look into the gym, pool, basketball court or something as you walk by, that would liven things up. It would also be more fun to run on the exercise machines if you had a view out to the street!

I'm not sure about the way the atrium juts out randomly with different materials between what is essentially two different buildings, but it might look nice from street level as compared to the overhead render. I don't actually mind the new CBC building, but it feels to me like something's missing on top at the corner. A small tower with roof garden maybe? A roof restaurant with views of the Citadel and Gardens? Maybe even a new CBC studio? It would be sweet to have the super hour news broadcast from up there! It's a prominent corner, the building is rounded and steps up to the top. It's calling out for something to go there, but instead it just ends with a boring flat top. Feels half done and could definitely be more interesting. One thing I really like, there doesn't seem to be blank walls anywhere and it'll hide the one crappy side of the Paramount!

All and all, I'm in favour.

:previous: I like these ideas -- you ought to forward that message to the YMCA via the feedback form on their website.

I also really like these ideas. Looking at the main floor plans, I can't tell exactly what's going on (maybe someone here can interpret better than I can). It looks like the pool will be along the street and below grade but from the renderings of it, I don't know if those are windows looking in from the street. As for the gymnasium, the plans say it's change rooms at street level but judging by the how the windows match up to the outside, it looks to be at street level. Who knows!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4028/...f68c3368_o.jpg
Source: http://www.newhalifaxymca.ca/the-new...enderings.html

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4034/...c36fb5b6_o.jpg
Source: http://www.newhalifaxymca.ca/the-new...enderings.html

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/...53be6409_o.jpg
Source: http://www.newhalifaxymca.ca/the-new...enderings.html

Anyway, definitely send in your comments because I think they would all make a positive difference to the development.

The website has this night one (and another day one from further back)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4008/...b2b43b9e_o.jpg
Source: http://www.newhalifaxymca.ca/the-new...enderings.html