SkyscraperPage Forum

SkyscraperPage Forum (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php)
-   Canada (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18)
-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

LeftCoaster Sep 1, 2017 7:38 PM

New routes to India? Like beyond DEL and BOM?

I think Tehran would be a great route for both YYZ and YVR. Both have a large wealthy Persian diaspora and both have large wealthy Persian diasporas to their south who cannot get a direct Tehran flight because of the current US political climate.

SFUVancouver Sep 1, 2017 9:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACT7 (Post 7909533)
AC had been reportedly working on finalizing new routes to India so a YYZ announcement is probably imminent. Not sure if that means next week but soonish I would imagine. Johannesburg and Teheran are apparently also in the works.

Johannesburg would be an astonishing route for Air Canada, but one that I'm unsure if it has the right aircraft to fly, or a market to warrant the cost.

https://i.imgur.com/Zynrv4n.gif
Great Circle Mapper

At approximately 8,300 nm from YYZ to JNB, it exceeds the legs of the Dreamliner (788 and 789), if I am not mistaken, or is at least at the upper operational limits of the 789. That's also about 500nm further than the airline's current longest flight (YYZ-HKG at 7,810nm). A 77L or 77W could do it, though, but probably not at MTOW, since JNB is a hot & high airport.

YUL-JNB makes more sense to me than YYZ-JNB, both because it is 300nm closer and because of JNB serving as a significant hub for Francophone West African travelers. Still...

https://i.imgur.com/U06mZen.gif
Great Circle Mapper

Cape Town could be a pretty amazing destination and it's just a quick-ish hop to Johannesburg or Durban for those wanting to continue on to the country's other major cities. YYZ-CPT is still 8,157nm and YUL-CPT is 7,935.

For a couple of years I did quite a bit of travel to Johannesburg for work and I would have loved to have the opportunity to fly a domestic leg from YVR and then a straight shot to JNB. I routed through LHR or HKG and it would always be a taxing haul to do 30+ hours of continuous travel, including as much as 24 hours in the air, and then arrive at ten to seven in the morning and go straight into meetings. I still have some PTSD about those trips.

Edit: just realized that my Great Circle Mapper output was in miles, not nautical miles.

hollywoodcory Sep 1, 2017 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 7909239)
So last week was YUL's time to shine. This week it's YVR. So I guess a YYZ announcement next week?

Or they could share some love with YYC, but I doubt it. :haha:

craneSpotter Sep 2, 2017 2:47 AM

YVR July pax stats:

Total - 2,432,977 (+7.1%)

Domestic - 1,154,635 (+5.5%)

International - 659,658 (+7.8%)

Transborder - 618,684 (+9.8%)



YTD - 13,790,748 (+8.2%)

thenoflyzone Sep 2, 2017 2:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver (Post 7909873)
Johannesburg would be an astonishing route for Air Canada, but one that I'm unsure if it has the right aircraft to fly, or a market to warrant the cost.

At approximately 8,300 nm from YYZ to JNB, it exceeds the legs of the Dreamliner (788 and 789), if I am not mistaken, or is at least at the upper operational limits of the 789. That's also about 500nm further than the airline's current longest flight (YYZ-HKG at 7,810nm). A 77L or 77W could do it, though, but probably not at MTOW, since JNB is a hot & high airport.

YUL-JNB makes more sense to me than YYZ-JNB, both because it is 300nm closer and because of JNB serving as a significant hub for Francophone West African travelers. Still...

Cape Town could be a pretty amazing destination and it's just a quick-ish hop to Johannesburg or Durban for those wanting to continue on to the country's other major cities. YYZ-CPT is still 8,157nm and YUL-CPT is 7,935.

For a couple of years I did quite a bit of travel to Johannesburg for work and I would have loved to have the opportunity to fly a domestic leg from YVR and then a straight shot to JNB. I routed through LHR or HKG and it would always be a taxing haul to do 30+ hours of continuous travel, including as much as 24 hours in the air, and then arrive at ten to seven in the morning and go straight into meetings. I still have some PTSD about those trips.

DL operates ATL-JNB (7334 nm), a longer flight than YYZ-JNB (7216 nm), with the 77L, with no issues.

Range isn't an issue for the 77L, which can travel 8,500 nm with 317 passengers. AC's 77L only have 300 seats.

YUL-JNB makes no sense considering the 77L is capable of operating YYZ-JNB-YYZ. All westbound flights to North America from JNB will be payload restricted, so choosing YUL over YYZ won't solve anything. AC will want to operate the route into their primary hub, which has the most O&D to JNB, and where the cargo/connection opportunities are greater. That is YYZ-JNB-YYZ.

IKA (Tehran) and JNB make sense for YYZ. I think both routes will happen. I wouldn't be surprised if one of these gets announced this coming week.

SkahHigh Sep 2, 2017 2:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craneSpotter (Post 7910060)
YVR July pax stats:

Total - 2,432,977 (+7.1%)

Domestic - 1,154,635 (+5.5%)

International - 659,658 (+7.8%)

Transborder - 618,684 (+9.8%)



YTD - 13,790,748 (+8.2%)

I thought YUL could match YVR this month but no. Great growth from Van.

thenoflyzone Sep 2, 2017 2:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craneSpotter (Post 7910060)
YVR July pax stats:

Total - 2,432,977 (+7.1%)

Domestic - 1,154,635 (+5.5%)

International - 659,658 (+7.8%)

Transborder - 618,684 (+9.8%)



YTD - 13,790,748 (+8.2%)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkahHigh (Post 7908928)
YUL July stats are out:

1,914,825 +11.4%

Domestic 701,599 +9.7%

International 819,082 +14.5%

Transborder 394,144 +8.4%

YTD 10,469,576 +9.3%

Both airports are on quite a roll. YUL's numbers are insane ! International growth was double that of YVR (the cap on Chinese carriers is showing its effect). Domestic is also picking up nicely, but can't compare to YVR's number.
A lot of IRROPS days at YUL in August. Let's see how that will affect the passenger numbers.

thenoflyzone Sep 2, 2017 3:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage (Post 7903155)
I'm seeing on some systems that AC19/20 is the new flight number for YYZ-NRT. This flight will be operated by the 789 on a daily basis.

Indeed. It is now on ac.com flight schedules. Virtually identical times to YUL-NRT-YUL.

AC19 YYZ1400 - 1545+1NRT B789 D
AC20 NRT1730 - 1625YYZ B789 D

chris Sep 2, 2017 11:39 PM

YVR-SIN is 7976mi

YYZ-JNB is 8303mi

per Great Circle Mapper

Beyond Cape Town and Durban, I don't see a lot of demand coming from the rest of South Africa. Even in neighboring countries...Botswana, Mozambique, Namibia...is there a lot of traffic to Canada from there? I think not.

SaskScraper Sep 3, 2017 1:18 AM

with Delta flying non-stop between Atlanta to Johannesburg, It's the most convenient & literally just a hop, skip and juuuump to South Africa.

Last time I flew from Saskatoon to Joburg, it was couple hours to Minni & a couple hours to Atlanta before catching that afternoon's 17 hour over night flight to Joburg.. never spent more than a couple hours in each of Minni or Atlanta and it was about the most direct route you can get, seamlessly easy..

giallo Sep 3, 2017 3:41 AM

I felt the crunch a couple of weeks ago at YVR. The growth is fantastic, but they'll need to keep expanding the airport quickly. I left on a Friday, and the international departure area felt like a fire hazard - especially going through the security check. Way too many people for the space provided.

thenoflyzone Sep 4, 2017 1:04 PM

Top US destinatons from YUL based on O&D for 2016

Bold denotes non-stop service.

1. FLL 412,803

2. New York 390,581

3. LAX 187,254

4. MCO 174,297

5. LAS 161,933

6. SFO 157,587

7. ORD 138,493

8. MIA 123,791

9. IAD 89,040

10. ATL 75,950

11. DFW 59,200

12. BOS 57,780

13. PHL 52,640

14. TPA 45,283

15. IAH 43,630

16. Hawaii 41,753

17. DEN 37,460

18. SAN 36,702

19. PHX 36,631 (non stop begins Feb 22, 2018)

20. MSP 35,830

21. SEA 33,800

22. DTW 31,320

23. PBI 26,446

24. RSW 26,405

25. CLT 25,850

26. MSY 23,050

27. RDU 22,060

28. SJU 19,436

29. BNA 18.735

30. AUS 18,690

31. PDX 16,840


Source: StatsCan

http://www5.statcan.gc.ca/cansim/a26...&pattern=&csid

speedog Sep 4, 2017 2:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by giallo (Post 7910573)
I felt the crunch a couple of weeks ago at YVR. The growth is fantastic, but they'll need to keep expanding the airport quickly. I left on a Friday, and the international departure area felt like a fire hazard - especially going through the security check. Way too many people for the space provided.

So do fire marshalls/whomever do a spot check with respect to rated capacities in public spaces such as this?

Cage Sep 5, 2017 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedog (Post 7911160)
So do fire marshalls/whomever do a spot check with respect to rated capacities in public spaces such as this?

The rated capacity is for the whole building and is not segregated per area, AFAIK.

Last year my kids elementary school held a dance. 650 kids and adults for a K-4 elementary school with 450 pupils. A question was asked about fire capacity for the gym. Response back for school board was we could have up to 1,000 people and still be under fire capacity because the fire capacity is calculated on whole building.

thenoflyzone Sep 5, 2017 12:47 AM

Heard AC will announce a new European route out of YUL this month. Let the speculations begin.

DUB, LIS, GLA, EDI.....plenty of holes in AC's European network out of YUL.

G.S MTL Sep 5, 2017 2:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 7911505)
Heard AC will announce a new European route out of YUL this month. Let the speculations begin.

DUB, LIS, GLA, EDI.....plenty of holes in AC's European network out of YUL.

LIS would be A great choice !! For us Portuguese :p

Nicko999 Sep 5, 2017 4:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.S MTL (Post 7911555)
LIS would be A great choice !! For us Portuguese :p

How about Eastern Europe? There is a massive hole to be filled there. Judging by the massive Romanian community here, maybe Bucharest?

Marshal Sep 5, 2017 8:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by giallo (Post 7910573)
I felt the crunch a couple of weeks ago at YVR. The growth is fantastic, but they'll need to keep expanding the airport quickly. I left on a Friday, and the international departure area felt like a fire hazard - especially going through the security check. Way too many people for the space provided.

Picked up a friend tonight (8PM) at YVR and traffic was backed up to before the Petro Canada station. We never hear about expansions with regard to auto traffic beyond more parking.

thenoflyzone Sep 5, 2017 1:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicko999 (Post 7911612)
How about Eastern Europe? There is a massive hole to be filled there. Judging by the massive Romanian community here, maybe Bucharest?

Or France? Still plenty of routes left for AC in France. TLS, BOD, NTE....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshal (Post 7911688)
Picked up a friend tonight (8PM) at YVR and traffic was backed up to before the Petro Canada station. We never hear about expansions with regard to auto traffic beyond more parking.

That's nothing. I've seen cars backed up here in YUL up to the 520 highway.(That's the equivalent of templeton street at YVR)

Leaving the airport too, because of the Dorval circle nightmare, I've seen cars backed up from the airport all the way to highway 20.

At least YVR has the SkyTrain, which eases road congestion. YUL doesn't have a train line, yet.

Marshal Sep 5, 2017 10:24 PM

Well good for you. But, that is of little interest. I'm sure things get worse than what I experienced at YVR, but its not about comparing or competing. We have a lot of initial planning for all sorts of expansions at YVR: terminal, air-side, runways, taxiways, fuel pipelines, parking structures, etc. My little traffic jam simply brought to mind the fact that I have never seen any planned expansions or configurations of the pick-up and drop-off components, or changes to the roadway approaches to the terminals. Surely this is an issue YVR is aware of.

casper Sep 6, 2017 1:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshal (Post 7912393)
Well good for you. But, that is of little interest. I'm sure things get worse than what I experienced at YVR, but its not about comparing or competing. We have a lot of initial planning for all sorts of expansions at YVR: terminal, air-side, runways, taxiways, fuel pipelines, parking structures, etc. My little traffic jam simply brought to mind the fact that I have never seen any planned expansions or configurations of the pick-up and drop-off components, or changes to the roadway approaches to the terminals. Surely this is an issue YVR is aware of.

I am certain as part of the design process they model traffic in and out of the terminal. The reason it does not get a lot of public attention probably has more to do with the fact it has not been to bad until now.

There are three levels "Departure", "Arrival" and the "Lower Level (when the bus and rental cars etc. go)". Sounds like it is the Arrival is where you were running to problems. Hopefully they can do something to that level. Given it is not at ground level it might make it hard.

Marshal Sep 6, 2017 9:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 7912565)
I am certain as part of the design process they model traffic in and out of the terminal. The reason it does not get a lot of public attention probably has more to do with the fact it has not been to bad until now.

There are three levels "Departure", "Arrival" and the "Lower Level (when the bus and rental cars etc. go)". Sounds like it is the Arrival is where you were running to problems. Hopefully they can do something to that level. Given it is not at ground level it might make it hard.

It was jammed through both arrivals and departures, and to a lesser extent, entering the parkade. Of course they model traffic. But there are giant differences to the way cars can interface with the different options for terminal expansion. Some expansions come with increased roadway frontage, others don't while adding a lot more traffic to the frontage that exists. I can think of plenty of design options to increase usable road frontage. Just curious to see how much their thoughts on this have been pushed and anticipated with actual design solutions. YVR's road structure is currently pretty basic. It simply will not remain so forever.

Denscity Sep 6, 2017 3:00 PM

Interjet just announced YVR to MEX and CUN.

LeftCoaster Sep 6, 2017 10:24 PM

^Yep, late Oct launch.

4xPW to MEX and 4xPW to CUN.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/...late-oct-2017/

Love all the Mexico City growth but I really wish someone like Volaris would start up Guadalajara or Monterrey.

thenoflyzone Sep 8, 2017 11:44 AM

Icelandair increases at YHZ, YUL and YVR for next summer.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/...as-of-07sep17/

Quote:

Reykjavik Keflavik – Halifax eff 24JUN18 Increase from 3 to 4 weekly, 757 service
Reykjavik Keflavik – Montreal eff 13JUN18 Increase from 4 to 6 weekly, 757 service (Currently Montreal departure displays 6 weekly, Reykjavik 4 weekly)
Reykjavik Keflavik – Vancouver eff 13JUN18 Increase from 3 to 4 weekly, 757 service
YUL-LHR and YUL-TLV will be converted to B787 next summer as well.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/...rvice-changes/

Quote:

Montreal – London Heathrow eff 01MAY18 Boeing 787-9 replaces A330-300/777-300ER (Previous plan: A330 in May, 777 from June). This reflected in yesterday’s schedule update
AC864 YUL2000 – 0725+1LHR 789 D
AC865 LHR1410 – 1610YUL 789 D

Montreal – Tel Aviv Reflected in previous schedule update, seasonal 2 weekly service operates with 787-8 instead of A330 in S17
AC082 YUL1810 – 1125+1TLV 788 37
AC083 TLV1255 – 1710YUL 788 14

jmt18325 Sep 9, 2017 1:47 AM

During the winter seasion, YYZ-BOM is being switched from a 789 to a 77L. Would cargo be the reason, or could it be something else? I thought the route was only viable with the 787.

ghYHZ Sep 9, 2017 9:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 7915512)
Icelandair increases at YHZ, YUL and YVR for next summer]

Halifax with a population of around 400,000…..certainly does have an good variety of summer transatlantic services:

Air Canada 767 daily to LHR (year ‘round but reduced frequency in winter)
WestJet 737 daily to GLA
Icelandair 757 now 4x weekly to KEF
Condor 767 4x weekly to FRA
Condor 767 1x weekly to MUC
ASL 737 1x weekly to DUB/CDG

yyzer Sep 9, 2017 1:21 PM

per routesonline.com, Philippine Airlines will operate their YYZ flights nonstop, effective Dec 16...

Actual schedule based on the airline’s PDF schedule listing (16DEC17 – 10MAR18) as follow.

PR118 MNL1615 – 1755YYZ 773 357
PR118 MNL1620 – 1800YYZ 773 6

PR119 YYZ0015 – 0545+1MNL 773 x235

If those times hold for next summer, will be nice to see a daylight arrival.. :)

Cage Sep 9, 2017 5:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmt18325 (Post 7916599)
During the winter seasion, YYZ-BOM is being switched from a 789 to a 77L. Would cargo be the reason, or could it be something else? I thought the route was only viable with the 787.

YYZ-HKG is being increased to 77W service and the 2 77L have to go somewhere long haul.

chris Sep 9, 2017 5:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage (Post 7916980)
YYZ-HKG is being increased to 77W service and the 2 77L have to go somewhere long haul.

Maybe YUL-HKG? ;)

Alexcaban Sep 9, 2017 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage (Post 7916980)
YYZ-HKG is being increased to 77W service and the 2 77L have to go somewhere long haul.

YUL-FRA will be a 77L for December.

thenoflyzone Sep 10, 2017 3:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cage (Post 7916980)
YYZ-HKG is being increased to 77W service and the 2 77L have to go somewhere long haul.

YYZ-JNB seems the most likely. YYZ is due for a major route announcement. YUL's happened two weeks ago, YVR's was last week. YYZ is next. This could be it.
Combined with a Rouge 3x weekly YUL-Europe route announcement. That 767 would come from the terminated YVR-LGW route. Just my opinion.

thenoflyzone Sep 11, 2017 2:32 PM

Started hearing rumors of a Canada-Ireland route being announced tomorrow.

SteelTown Sep 11, 2017 2:33 PM

Looks like YHM will be the eastern hub for Jetlines.

Canada Jetlines to Offer Low-Fare Air Service From Two Toronto Metropolitan Area Airports Commencing Summer 2018

Canada Jetlines Ltd. (TSX-V: JET) (the “Company” or “Jetlines”) is pleased to announce that it intends to offer ultra-low fare service from both John C. Munro Hamilton International Airport and Region of Waterloo International Airport, when it begins flight operations in Summer 2018.

Stan Gadek, CEO of Jetlines stated “the high demand for lower airfares in the Toronto Metropolitan Area has led to the decision to base our flying in this region. As a result, we are pleased to announce that we have entered into an agreement with the John C. Munro Hamilton International Airport and are in active discussions with Region of Waterloo International Airport. The combined service area for these airports includes nearly four million people. This factored significantly in our decision to serve both airports.”

President & CEO for John C. Munro Hamilton International Airport, Vijay Bathija, said “as Hamilton International continues to grow as a low-cost airport in the Toronto Metropolitan Area, the Airport is pleased that Jetlines has chosen Hamilton as its Eastern focus city providing further low-cost travel options for Hamilton and the region.”

General Manager for Region of Waterloo International Airport, Chris Wood, said “We look forward to continuing discussions with Jetlines as they plan the launch of a new ULCC to serve the very dynamic economy in the Waterloo Region.”

Jetlines plans to offer ultra-low fare service to the major markets in Canada and select destinations in the U.S., Mexico, and the Caribbean. Mr. Gadek added “Canadians are overpaying for air travel and we intend to change that. By offering customers the freedom to select the travel experience they want in addition to getting every day ultra-low fares, Jetlines will change the way that Canadians fly.”

jmt18325 Sep 11, 2017 2:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 7918342)
Started hearing rumors of a Canada-Ireland route being announced tomorrow.

And there just happens to be a Rouge 767 available 3 times per week.....

There's also the final Rouge 767 coming online in the spring - I don't think that's yet been allocated.

craneSpotter Sep 11, 2017 6:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteelTown (Post 7918343)
Looks like YHM will be the eastern hub for Jetlines.

Canada Jetlines to Offer Low-Fare Air Service From Two Toronto Metropolitan Area Airports Commencing Summer 2018

They plan to start operations June 1, 2018 with two 737-800NGs - in an all-coach 189 seat configuration - after 90 days they plan to add two more aircraft and expand to 14 more markets - including St. John’s, N.L.; Las Vegas, Nev.; and Orlando, Fla.

https://www.skiesmag.com/news/canada...are-rebellion/

Here is their updated route map:

http://i63.tinypic.com/311utdi.jpg


Good Luck to Canada Jetlines!

SteelTown Sep 11, 2017 6:41 PM

Ultimately by Spring 2019
https://i.cbc.ca/1.4284028.150514829...a-jetlines.jpg
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilt...line-1.4284017

nname Sep 11, 2017 7:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteelTown (Post 7918693)
Ultimately by Spring 2019

So they already gave up their original plan to start a hub at YVR :shrug:

===============

Other ULCC news today, Flair Airlines (formerly NewLeaf) announces today that they plan to start:

7x weekly YEG-YYZ
4x weekly YEG-YVR
3x weekly YEG-YLW

Effective Dec 15

http://globalnews.ca/news/3734355/fl...-transfer-hub/


Haven't checked it for a while, but seems like they removed the "NewLeaf" brand from the website completely?

SkahHigh Sep 11, 2017 7:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craneSpotter (Post 7918685)
They plan to start operations June 1, 2018 with two 737-800NGs - in an all-coach 189 seat configuration - after 90 days they plan to add two more aircraft and expand to 14 more markets - including St. John’s, N.L.; Las Vegas, Nev.; and Orlando, Fla.

https://www.skiesmag.com/news/canada...are-rebellion/

Here is their updated route map:

http://i63.tinypic.com/311utdi.jpg


Good Luck to Canada Jetlines!

Didn't know these guys were still around. I thought they were to be based in Winnipeg?

Good luck getting people from TO driving to Hamilton to save a hundred bucks.

nname Sep 11, 2017 7:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkahHigh (Post 7918724)
Didn't know these guys were still around. I thought they were to be based in Winnipeg?

Good luck getting people from TO driving to Hamilton to save a hundred bucks.

They're based in YVR:

Canada Jetlines Ltd
Address: 3211 Grant McConachie Way, Richmond, BC V7B 0A4

SteelTown Sep 11, 2017 7:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 7918723)
Haven't checked it for a while, but seems like they removed the "NewLeaf" brand from the website completely?

NewLeaf was basically renting Flair's airplanes. Eventually, about four or five months ago Flair purchased NewLeaf, thus Flair Airlines.

esquire Sep 11, 2017 7:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkahHigh (Post 7918724)
Good luck getting people from TO driving to Hamilton to save a hundred bucks.

It's going to be pretty tough sledding for them by the looks of things. Unless the flights to and from Halifax are timed perfectly for connections coming from Western Canada, it looks like this is basically a strictly point to point operation. So you have to wonder, how much demand is there to fly to Hamilton or Waterloo? Can it actually sustain an airline?

I wonder if it wouldn't have made more sense to do the Hamilton-Waterloo to sun destination part of the network first, such that once domestic routes started you'd have a reason for people to feed into the hubs. Right now the routes will be relying on three groups of people:

1) Those in Western Canada who need to actually be in Hamilton, Waterloo or some other place south of the GTA
2) Niagara Falls vacationers
3) Very price sensitive travellers who will use YHM to get into Toronto.

I don't think the market for any of those three categories is all that huge.

wave46 Sep 11, 2017 7:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 7918723)

Other ULCC news today, Flair Airlines (formerly NewLeaf) announces today that they plan to start:

7x weekly YEG-YYZ

Effective Dec 15

http://globalnews.ca/news/3734355/fl...-transfer-hub/

Well, that was a quick shift back to YYZ. I guess the advantages of running out of Pearson outweigh the costs imposed.

I'm guessing they'll be operating out of T3 or maybe IFT? Any insights?

wave46 Sep 11, 2017 7:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7918748)
It's going to be pretty tough sledding for them by the looks of things. Unless the flights to and from Halifax are timed perfectly for connections coming from Western Canada, it looks like this is basically a strictly point to point operation. So you have to wonder, how much demand is there to fly to Hamilton or Waterloo? Can it actually sustain an airline?

I wonder if it wouldn't have made more sense to do the Hamilton-Waterloo to sun destination part of the network first, such that once domestic routes started you'd have a reason for people to feed into the hubs. Right now the routes will be relying on three groups of people:

1) Those in Western Canada who need to actually be in Hamilton, Waterloo or some other place south of the GTA
2) Niagara Falls vacationers
3) Very price sensitive travellers who will use YHM to get into Toronto.

I don't think the market for any of those three categories is all that huge.

The main idea behind Hamilton is to access the Toronto market at a lower cost than Pearson. I think the other categories of people are much, much smaller.

However, it seems for all the hype, most airlines end up shifting to Pearson after the fact - I guess the high costs there don't outweigh the advantages. Flair is the latest to do so - they're now running YEG-YYZ.

If Pearson gets saturated or costs become too much to bear, maybe Hamilton will have its day? Pearson hits capacity at 50 million passengers a year, so they're not far off that point now. Then again, with all the ULCC startups, I expect a few to fail, or a limit to the growth in air travel.

It seems like Hamilton's day is always a few years into the future.

GlassCity Sep 11, 2017 7:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7918748)
It's going to be pretty tough sledding for them by the looks of things. Unless the flights to and from Halifax are timed perfectly for connections coming from Western Canada, it looks like this is basically a strictly point to point operation. So you have to wonder, how much demand is there to fly to Hamilton or Waterloo? Can it actually sustain an airline?

I wonder if it wouldn't have made more sense to do the Hamilton-Waterloo to sun destination part of the network first, such that once domestic routes started you'd have a reason for people to feed into the hubs. Right now the routes will be relying on three groups of people:

1) Those in Western Canada who need to actually be in Hamilton, Waterloo or some other place south of the GTA
2) Niagara Falls vacationers
3) Very price sensitive travellers who will use YHM to get into Toronto.

I don't think the market for any of those three categories is all that huge.

Yeah, NewLeaf's (or I guess Flair's now) approach seems much more logical. Why not stop in Calgary or Winnipeg on the way to Toronto from Vancouver and allow for actual connections? Obviously this would add time but for the price-sensitive traveller, it's just part of the deal. Just being a massive Toronto feeder doesn't make all that much sense, especially when Munro has such poor transit connections to Toronto.

esquire Sep 11, 2017 8:41 PM

^ The hassle and expense of going from YHM to Toronto is so great that surely it must offset much of the savings on airfare.

For instance, I can fly YWG-YYZ most days for $340 all in. Once I get to YYZ, it's a $25 round trip on UP Express. 25 minutes.

For YHM, the return fare is $280. But then I have to pay either $120 each way to get to downtown Toronto by Hamilton airport shuttle, or deal with figuring out public transportation to get on the GO bus to Toronto. Probably well over an hour from airport to Union Station. It's a no brainer.

wave46 Sep 11, 2017 8:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7918862)
^ The hassle and expense of going from YHM to Toronto is so great that surely it must offset much of the savings on airfare.

For instance, I can fly YWG-YYZ most days for $340 all in. Once I get to YYZ, it's a $25 round trip on UP Express. 25 minutes.

For YHM, the return fare is $280. But then I have to pay either $120 each way to get to downtown Toronto by Hamilton airport shuttle, or deal with figuring out public transportation to get on the GO bus to Toronto. Probably well over an hour from airport to Union Station. It's a no brainer.

It comes down to situation, really.

Using Westjet on Google flights and Calgary as the destination (Oct 18-25):

You can save close to $130 if you fly out of Hamilton to Calgary versus Pearson. Considering the cheaper parking, it might work out if you're from Southern Ontario.

The knock being that there's not much choice in flights as compared to Pearson and you're more likely to find a better deal at YYZ for a last minute booking.

GlassCity Sep 11, 2017 9:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7918862)
^ The hassle and expense of going from YHM to Toronto is so great that surely it must offset much of the savings on airfare.

For instance, I can fly YWG-YYZ most days for $340 all in. Once I get to YYZ, it's a $25 round trip on UP Express. 25 minutes.

For YHM, the return fare is $280. But then I have to pay either $120 each way to get to downtown Toronto by Hamilton airport shuttle, or deal with figuring out public transportation to get on the GO bus to Toronto. Probably well over an hour from airport to Union Station. It's a no brainer.

But I mean regardless, if they've already chosen YHM as their Toronto airport, that shouldn't stop them from having flights between other cities. I can't see how an initially Toronto-only airline could compete with Flair, much less the big airlines.

esquire Sep 11, 2017 9:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 7918887)
It comes down to situation, really.

Using Westjet on Google flights and Calgary as the destination (Oct 18-25):

You can save close to $130 if you fly out of Hamilton to Calgary versus Pearson. Considering the cheaper parking, it might work out if you're from Southern Ontario.

The knock being that there's not much choice in flights as compared to Pearson and you're more likely to find a better deal at YYZ for a last minute booking.


You might save $130 but you're still faced with a potentially pricey and definitely time intensive trip to Toronto.

YHM makes perfect sense if you're going to Guelph, but for Toronto I can't see how it would be worth the hassle.

If GO or HSR started running a reasonably priced shuttle that took you direct from Toronto to YHM for no more than $20 each way, then that might change things a bit.

wave46 Sep 11, 2017 9:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire (Post 7918894)
You save $130 but you're still faced with a potentially pricey and definitely time intensive trip to Toronto.

YHM makes perfect sense if you're going to Guelph, but for Toronto I can't see how it would be worth the hassle.

If you're renting a car or need to park at the airport, I can see the advantage.

If the trip is focused on downtown Toronto as opposed to the suburbs, definitely Pearson is the way to go.

Like I said, it is situational.


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:49 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.