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-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

hollywoodcory Feb 16, 2022 5:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexcaban (Post 9538082)
More changes are loaded

YUL-BOS 1 AC 220, with others Jazz.
YUL/YYZ-MIA Rouge to mainline 2x daily 220
YUL-SAN Rouge to mainline A220

YUL-YQM/YYG/YQB Jazz to Rouge A319s
(YQB 4x A319, 1x CRJ)

It appears AC loaded a full summer update too. I only skimmed a few days but:

YYZ-LHR down to 3x daily

YYC-PDX gone
YYC-LAX removed in May??? Down to 1x daily otherwise
YYC-EWR resumes in May, but IAH in July? (Seems rather odd).

zahav Feb 16, 2022 5:50 AM

Looks like Rouge will be gone completely from YVR, with the last holdout route to LAS switching to mainline. They had never been big at YVR, and all the sun routes switched back to mainline years ago, but LAS was still. Now it's mainline 737 max, which is pretty much dominant on every non-Jazz route out of YVR, other than widebodies.

casper Feb 16, 2022 6:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9538280)
Looks like Rouge will be gone completely from YVR, with the last holdout route to LAS switching to mainline. They had never been big at YVR, and all the sun routes switched back to mainline years ago, but LAS was still. Now it's mainline 737 max, which is pretty much dominant on every non-Jazz route out of YVR, other than widebodies.

We have been de-rouged in the past. A sacrifice to be made by our west coasters, however it is for the better good. May Rouge flourish in YYZ and YUL where the locals appreciate its charm. Out west we would love some more of the A220s but will make do with the max and widebody aircraft.

LO 044 Feb 16, 2022 6:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9536910)
Two reasons:

- I don't think the ULCC model makes any sense in Canada. In Europe where there are many more options include rail to deal with service recovery it can work. In Canada, Flair has consistently demonstrated an inability to properly do service recover either using their own metal or my moving passenger onto other airlines.

- For many smaller stations, e.g. Victoria, Saskatoon, etc. they have a tendency to go after the low lying fruit. Basically routes where they can operate point-to-point. That means fewer flights from network operators (e.g. WestJet, Delta, Air Canada, Alaska etc.) that offer access to a wider nation or inter-national network of destinations. As a result these communities are losing access to the global transportation network that is needed to support a wide variety of business and tourism based travel.

If Flair had asperations to become a network operator with connections even if just on their own metal through their hubs I would by more sympathetic. They don't.

I disagree. If there is so much business and tourism based travel to places like Saskatoon and Victoria as you mention then AC and WS will provide the service anyways because WS needs to fill it's YYC hub and AC needs to fill their YVR hub. If WS and AC are bowing out then it is because it isn't worth it for them to serve those destinations. You believe airlines exist to serve and promote communities, even the small ones. Airlines disagree with you.

Also, if you are rooting for YVR (which i don't know if you are) then you would be against any ULCC as they will take away flights via YVR to all those small communities you mention. Saskatoon-Victoria no longer needs to be flown via YVR for example not that that route even exists now but you get my point.

casper Feb 16, 2022 7:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LO 044 (Post 9538302)
I disagree. If there is so much business and tourism based travel to places like Saskatoon and Victoria as you mention then AC and WS will provide the service anyways because WS needs to fill it's YYC hub and AC needs to fill their YVR hub. If WS and AC are bowing out then it is because it isn't worth it for them to serve those destinations. You believe airlines exist to serve and promote communities, even the small ones. Airlines disagree with you.

Also, if you are rooting for YVR (which i don't know if you are) then you would be against any ULCC as they will take away flights via YVR to all those small communities you mention. Saskatoon-Victoria no longer needs to be flown via YVR for example not that that route even exists now but you get my point.

That is the thing airlines exist to make a profit. Airport authorities and business associations exist to serve communities.

My point is the ULCC are bad for communities when they start to cause the AC, WS or DL of the world to reduce flights into those communities.

As an example, YXE is better off having multiple YYC, YVR, YYZ and MSP flights per day that start to lose these in favor ULCC point-to-point service.

It is more important that YXE has a flight to Vancouver that connects with the mid day bank of flights to Asia and the late evening bank to Australia than a non-stop to Victoria. Those are likely going to be 75 seat flights with maybe 20% making connections overseas.

AC and WS are not going to operate those flights because it is good for the YXE business community it is going to operate them because they sell seats.
A MAX8 on YXE-YYJ by Flair if successful will divert what 180 passengers off the core network route. That is a massive hit and will likely cause fewer flights and less connection options for YXE passengers through YYC and YVR.

YVR will do fine. I am not concerned with maximizing the number of passengers at any one airport. YVR and YYC have the scale that support ULCC without issue.

A good example is Abbotsford Airport. That serves the Fraser Valley. If you Cascadia Aerospace, your corporates offices are Halifax. Your customers when they fly in they are coming from various cities in the US, Mexico, Canada and Central America. The Swoop and Flair flights are mostly useless, they just go to where you do business. If your doing business in the Fraser Valley your more likely to have to drive to Vancouver or Seattle to catch a business flight.

If it were not for the ULCC there would be more AC and WS options with onward connections. Perhaps even an Alaska flight through SEA.

SpongeG Feb 16, 2022 7:10 AM

I never thought of using Rouge, I only ever heard negative things about it, and not worth saving a few bucks for.

casper Feb 16, 2022 7:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpongeG (Post 9538327)
I never thought of using Rouge, I only ever heard negative things about it, and not worth saving a few bucks for.

Be thankful. I have used Rouge several times on Vancouver to Las Vegas. Business class is the same an mainline. Economy is terrible.

I wish Air Canada all the best in its endeavor to have Rouge based out east. May it stay west of the Rockies for good.

Calfan12 Feb 16, 2022 8:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9538280)
Looks like Rouge will be gone completely from YVR, with the last holdout route to LAS switching to mainline. They had never been big at YVR, and all the sun routes switched back to mainline years ago, but LAS was still. Now it's mainline 737 max, which is pretty much dominant on every non-Jazz route out of YVR, other than widebodies.

AC Rouge is not completely gone from Vancouver YVR yet,as they will operating few times weekly flights to Quebec City YQB (seasonally) starting May 20 2022.

AC Rouge will also be operating Calgary YYC- YQB a few times weekly too this Summer (seasonally).

Calfan12 Feb 16, 2022 11:36 AM

It looks like United Airlines Edmonton YEG- Denver US, route is on track to resume in June 2022 1x daily & operated by Embraer 175 plane ✈️.

Also UA has pushed back YEG to Houston IAH flight route to end of October 2022 by the looks of it too.

Alexcaban Feb 16, 2022 2:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zahav (Post 9538280)
Looks like Rouge will be gone completely from YVR, with the last holdout route to LAS switching to mainline. They had never been big at YVR, and all the sun routes switched back to mainline years ago, but LAS was still. Now it's mainline 737 max, which is pretty much dominant on every non-Jazz route out of YVR, other than widebodies.

YVR-LAS is already operating as mainline.

MonctonRad Feb 16, 2022 2:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpongeG (Post 9538327)
I never thought of using Rouge, I only ever heard negative things about it, and not worth saving a few bucks for.

I flew Rouge once to San Diego from Toronto and it damned near killed me.

The seat pitch is so tight you can't move, and I ended up with an inflamed knee (bursitis acted up). I was limping all week in San Diego. It was not fun.

I will actively go out of my way to never fly Rouge again.........

Harrison Feb 16, 2022 5:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9537479)
So less competition is better?

Good to see WestJet continue to use Swoop in a predatory manner. Why aren't AC doing the same? AC has bigger fish to fry than worrying about Flair.

Flair is a huge threat to WS, whereas they're a minor nuisance for AC.

I love that WS is threatened by Flair, good on them to shake up the Canadian airline duopoly!

We need ULCCs in Canada and they were the first legitimate company to step up to offer that service and (surprise, surprise) there has been a strong demand for that, even if it's just point-to-point. For instance, 5 years ago my only option to fly YEG - YKF was through WS and they'd charge at least $400 RT, but now with Flair operating that route as well I can fly that for under $150, which is awesome.

Dominion301 Feb 16, 2022 7:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calfan12 (Post 9536984)
It looks like WestJet has completely removed Edmonton YEG - Ottawa YOW nonstop Domestic flights for Summer 2022 & the rest of the year! Only connecting WS flights are available on this route.

Basically WS has downgraded its Edmonton- Ottawa service for Swoop Airlines to operate (seasonal) flights from end of April- end of October.

It's likely Swoop will fly YEG-YOW year-round. WO's schedule is currently only available until the end of October.

Capacity for the "WestJet Group" on the route will essentially be unchanged with 5x weekly peak season 189 seats 738 service vs daily 73G on mainline.

hehehe Feb 16, 2022 10:33 PM

Interesting to see a lot of the capacity increases on AC for S22 earlier this year removed. Looks like travel won't return to normal until next winter.

Calfan12 Feb 16, 2022 11:06 PM

Air Canada has Edmonton YEG- San Francisco SFO route scheduled to resume in May 2022 & operating to end of October (seasonal) currently by the looks of it.

Operated by AC CRJ900 plane ✈️.

Basically AC has responded to Swoop Airlines move to fly YEG- SFO (seasonally). And not too surprising.

Good see Flair getting competition on YEG- SFO route, with AC & Swoop flying it too this Summer.

nname Feb 16, 2022 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 9538293)
We have been de-rouged in the past. A sacrifice to be made by our west coasters, however it is for the better good. May Rouge flourish in YYZ and YUL where the locals appreciate its charm. Out west we would love some more of the A220s but will make do with the max and widebody aircraft.

A220 doesn't really make it to YVR though... They're mainly stayed for routes out of YUL/YYZ. Currently YVR is 7M8 heaven, which will be used for most or all flights on NA mainline routes running out of YVR except YYZ (321 and wide-bodies), YWG (320), EWR (789), and ORD (320).

In fact, the only A220 flight scheduled for YVR for S22 is one daily YVR-YEG. For long-thin routes, AC currently opt for sub-daily 7M8 from YVR rather than daily 220.

nname Feb 16, 2022 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 9538250)
It appears AC loaded a full summer update too. I only skimmed a few days but:

YYZ-LHR down to 3x daily

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 9520921)
Seems from the current schedule, AC is planning to uses about 91% of their slot. So they can still afford to cut some more services.

Maybe YVR/YUL to LHR will go back down to 1x daily, or YYZ will go from 4 to 3x daily this summer...

So YYZ reduction... ✔️

Now AC's slot usage is down to 82%. They can cut 1 more flight and still meet the 70% minimum. Wonder if YVR/YUL flight is up next...

Currently the second daily flight from YUL is scheduled with 788, and YVR with 789. 788 was fully removed from YVR schedule except DUB that rotates with the YUL flight. All other 788 flights from YVR were upgraded to 789.

hehehe Feb 16, 2022 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calfan12 (Post 9539343)
Air Canada has Edmonton YEG- San Francisco SFO route scheduled to resume in May 2022 & operating to end of October (seasonal) currently by the looks of it.

Operated by AC CRJ900 plane ✈️.

Basically AC has responded to Swoop Airlines move to fly YEG- SFO (seasonally). And not too surprising.

Good see Flair getting competition on YEG- SFO route, with AC & Swoop flying it too this Summer.

Definitely not responding to Swoop.

Calfan12 Feb 17, 2022 1:27 AM

Also Edmonton’s KLM flights won’t be consolidated with Calgary YYC anymore as of March 27 2022.

That means Edmonton YEG passengers will be key to fill the A330 on KLM 3x weekly nonstops Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays for YEG- Amsterdam flights this Summer for it to be successful/has demand.

Coldrsx Feb 17, 2022 4:09 AM

That's our most important flight right now and absolutely great to see.


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