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-   -   Will Virginia lose it's southern status? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245214)

jd3189 Dec 27, 2020 8:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142992)
As MonkeyRonin pointed out, if Virginia becomes an extension of the BosWash Corridor culturally, then that's not Southern anymore. Period.

I don't know about that. Wouldn't that just be the beginning of BosWash spreading down south and being more of a general East Coast/ Eastern US megalopolis? Virginia will still retain Southern culture in the more rural parts, just like any state in its respective region, but it would be just be more of a part of a cosmopolitan network of cities.

If BosWash consumed Virginia and went down to NC and GA, would they cease being Southern in culture?

hauntedheadnc Dec 27, 2020 9:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9143406)
Atlanta is a big cosmopolitain area with people from everywhere living there. Like Houston. It's still southern but heavily influenced by decades of northerners and immigrants moving in and driving like assholes. Traffic has always been bad has become progressively more aggressive.

Just like every other big city, and many smaller ones, in the South?

lio45 Dec 28, 2020 2:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc (Post 9143255)
... and more importantly, why can that Southern culture not include ... Hindu temples, signs in Mandarin, Catholics, decent dim sum, bodegas, conveyor belt sushi, El Salvadorans ... ?

Because those things are all foreign...?

"Why cannot Japanese culture include McDonald's burgers and fries, KFC fried chicken, Coca-Cola, American pop music, American TV shows, Hollywood movies, etc.?"

"Why cannot German culture include bérets, baguettes and the Eiffel Tower?"

memph Dec 28, 2020 4:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd3189 (Post 9143408)
I don't know about that. Wouldn't that just be the beginning of BosWash spreading down south and being more of a general East Coast/ Eastern US megalopolis? Virginia will still retain Southern culture in the more rural parts, just like any state in its respective region, but it would be just be more of a part of a cosmopolitan network of cities.

If BosWash consumed Virginia and went down to NC and GA, would they cease being Southern in culture?

If GA and NC can no longer be distinguished culturally from New York and Massachusetts, it'll probably be make more sense to refer to Midwestern/Heartland states vs East Coast.

SpawnOfVulcan Dec 28, 2020 4:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142491)
That's not the argument. Obviously, God-fearing grits-eating SC/GA blacks who voted Biden are Southern, Cubans in Miami who voted Trump aren't.

Well, that's not a stereotype at all. Of course, I don't know if you're white or a POC, but still... stereotype

More goes into defining a cultural region than its demographics. If we're saying Miami's Cuban population makes it lean away from being a part of The South then we'd have a map of cities all over The South with asterisks next to their name, simply because it contains they contain a demographic that doesn't typify The South.

Raleigh and Huntsville are perfect examples. They have the greatest concentrations of research/tech/engineering (normalizing for population, of course) in The South, with transplants pouring out if their asses. But, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single person that does not consider those two cities Southern.

Miami isn't, not Southern because it has a large Cuban population, it's simply a Southern city that happens to have a large Cuban population.

Will O' Wisp Dec 28, 2020 5:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9143562)
Because those things are all foreign...?

"Why cannot Japanese culture include McDonald's burgers and fries, KFC fried chicken, Coca-Cola, American pop music, American TV shows, Hollywood movies, etc.?"

"Why cannot German culture include bérets, baguettes and the Eiffel Tower?"

It's interesting that you bring up Japan and KFC fried chicken, because in Japan KFC has become traditional Christmas food, to the point that Colonel Sanders statues dressed in Santa outfits are a common sight in December.

That begs the question, is eating KFC at Christmas "American culture" when there is no such tradition in America itself?

Or how about this one: I think everyone can agree sauerkraut is a part of "traditional" German cuisine. And yet it didn't originate in Germany, or even Europe. Sauerkraut is actually from China, transmitted to central Europe via the Tartars in the middle ages.

And of course this doesn't even get into all the issues brought up by the Colombian exchange. Is pizza not Italian because tomatoes are from South America? 250 years ago your average Italian might've thought the dish would kill them, tomatoes commonly being seen as poisonous at the time. And they certainly would've thought of tomatoes as exotic and foreign.

Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.

lio45 Dec 28, 2020 6:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9143622)
It's interesting that you bring up Japan and KFC fried chicken, because in Japan KFC has become traditional Christmas food, to the point that Colonel Sanders statues dressed in Santa outfits are a common sight in December.

That begs the question, is eating KFC at Christmas "American culture" when there is no such tradition in America itself?

Or how about this one: I think everyone can agree sauerkraut is a part of "traditional" German cuisine. And yet it didn't originate in Germany, or even Europe. Sauerkraut is actually from China, transmitted to central Europe via the Tartars in the middle ages.

And of course this doesn't even get into all the issues brought up by the Colombian exchange. Is pizza not Italian because tomatoes are from South America? 250 years ago your average Italian might've thought the dish would kill them, tomatoes commonly being seen as poisonous at the time. And they certainly would've thought of tomatoes as exotic and foreign.

Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.

I'm not sure whether you realize we're in agreement...? Sauerkraut wasn't German in the early Middle Ages; Sauerkraut is German now; Virginia was Southern in 1860; NoVa isn't Southern now; etc.

In other words - things can change; someday, KFC might be culturally Japanese and Virginia might be culturally Yankee. Just because KFC was unarguably not Japanese at all at some point in the past, doesn't mean KFC can't eventually become typical Japanese food at some point in the future.

lio45 Dec 28, 2020 6:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9143622)
Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.

It will be, by the people who are on my side of the argument; it won't be, by the people who are on the side that insists that [Virginia/KFC] was [Southern/Not-Japanese] 200 years ago, and therefore, can never become anything else.

lio45 Dec 28, 2020 6:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack (Post 9143291)
Gatineau is already part-way there, as francophones here support independence in much lower numbers than elsewhere in Quebec. To the tune of about 25% in the last referendum vs. 50-70% in the rest of Quebec.

Separatist parties also don't fare very well here and they've only extremely sporadically elected reps from here, though municipal politicians with separatist leanings generally do OK - the city has no power to separate from Canada.

We are also OK with more general Québécois nationalist principles, if they stop short of independence.

For example the CAQ won 3 of 5 seats in the region in 2018.

Exactly my point. Independence/secession isn't the one thing culture hinges on. Irish culture existed in the 1910s and earlier; Scottish culture exists now; Gatineau is currently a Québécois city where people eat poutine and watch TLMEP on Sunday despite a tendency to vote PQ/BQ significantly less than the rest of us.

lio45 Dec 28, 2020 6:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere (Post 9143209)
Quebec is a much more of a distinctive society than "the South" - which is home to nearly 40% of the US population.

That has no bearing on the argument, which is, can a distinctive society, regardless of the level of distinctiveness (whether it's Quebec-level or Dixie-level), ever change and stop being distinct, or is it always going to be deemed distinct even if it totally ceases to be, just because it was at some point in the past?

I personally think the answer to that question is obvious, but it seems not everyone agrees.

lio45 Dec 28, 2020 6:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd3189 (Post 9143408)
If BosWash consumed Virginia and went down to NC and GA, would they cease being Southern in culture?

Yes;
Quote:

Originally Posted by memph (Post 9143604)
If GA and NC can no longer be distinguished culturally from New York and Massachusetts,

they will cease to be Southern in culture at that point, and that one single New England-to-Georgia homogeneous Eastern Seaboard Culture might be called "East Coast" or something like that, assuming it's distinct from Midwestern/Appalachian/Plains/etc. (If not, then it's all going to be "American" culture at that point.)

JManc Dec 28, 2020 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9143647)
Yes;they will cease to be Southern in culture at that point, and that one single New England-to-Georgia homogeneous Eastern Seaboard Culture might be called "East Coast" or something like that, assuming it's distinct from Midwestern/Appalachian/Plains/etc. (If not, then it's all going to be "American" culture at that point.)

No. They wouldn't cease to be southern. New York/ Philly/ Boston are still culturally northeast (with some variation) with DC kind of in the middle of both north/ south but VA through GA will remain southern even if more integrated with other metros.

iheartthed Dec 28, 2020 4:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9143622)
It's interesting that you bring up Japan and KFC fried chicken, because in Japan KFC has become traditional Christmas food, to the point that Colonel Sanders statues dressed in Santa outfits are a common sight in December.

That begs the question, is eating KFC at Christmas "American culture" when there is no such tradition in America itself?

Or how about this one: I think everyone can agree sauerkraut is a part of "traditional" German cuisine. And yet it didn't originate in Germany, or even Europe. Sauerkraut is actually from China, transmitted to central Europe via the Tartars in the middle ages.

And of course this doesn't even get into all the issues brought up by the Colombian exchange. Is pizza not Italian because tomatoes are from South America? 250 years ago your average Italian might've thought the dish would kill them, tomatoes commonly being seen as poisonous at the time. And they certainly would've thought of tomatoes as exotic and foreign.

Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.

Christmas is also romantic holiday in Japan (similar to Valentine's Day), which westerners would find extremely weird.

Docere Dec 28, 2020 6:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9143643)
That has no bearing on the argument, which is, can a distinctive society, regardless of the level of distinctiveness (whether it's Quebec-level or Dixie-level), ever change and stop being distinct, or is it always going to be deemed distinct even if it totally ceases to be, just because it was at some point in the past?

I personally think the answer to that question is obvious, but it seems not everyone agrees.

My point is that most of the South is only really semi-Southern anyway in a cultural sense (Texas, Florida, West Virginia, much of Virginia etc.)

Much of the South is very much "mainstream America." Transplants and "change" aren't at all marginal to the region.

JManc Dec 28, 2020 9:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere (Post 9143884)
My point is that most of the South is only really semi-Southern anyway in a cultural sense (Texas, Florida, West Virginia, much of Virginia etc.)

Much of the South is very much "mainstream America." Transplants and "change" aren't at all marginal to the region.

Mainstream America and Southern aren't mutually exclusive. Texas has gotten more diverse and cosmopolitan...even accents are more muted in the big cities but it's still very much "Southern/ Southwestern" (depending on where you live) Transplants do adapt. I have and I grew up in the northeast which also has its own vibe despite still being mainstream.

Texas was never Alabama or Georgia but it's own thing. Arkansas and Tennessee are also different than these Deep South states.

Docere Dec 28, 2020 9:39 PM

What's strange is the very seem people who are asserting "change" and 'history is not static" are the most adamant about removing Virginia from the South.

liat91 Dec 29, 2020 5:17 AM

I agree that Virginia now looks more towards the NE than south. Parts of it are southern, but so are parts of Maryland and even Pennsylvania.

Once Richmond no longer feels strongly southern, Virginia clearly joins the NE. Same with Jacksonville in Florida, once it flips, there can be no argument that the state is no longer southern. The rest of the historical south is still pretty solid with mainstream islands within.

bobdreamz Dec 29, 2020 5:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpawnOfVulcan (Post 9143612)
Well, that's not a stereotype at all. Of course, I don't know if you're white or a POC, but still... stereotype

More goes into defining a cultural region than its demographics. If we're saying Miami's Cuban population makes it lean away from being a part of The South then we'd have a map of cities all over The South with asterisks next to their name, simply because it contains they contain a demographic that doesn't typify The South.

Raleigh and Huntsville are perfect examples. They have the greatest concentrations of research/tech/engineering (normalizing for population, of course) in The South, with transplants pouring out if their asses. But, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single person that does not consider those two cities Southern.

Miami isn't, not Southern because it has a large Cuban population, it's simply a Southern city that happens to have a large Cuban population.

This is like becoming a broken record now on this forum.
Miami wasn't settled or developed by "Southerners" to begin with.
The argument you are making makes sense if you are talking about Atlanta because no matter how many different types of people move there that city is still drenched in Southern history & culture.
Miami never was.

mrnyc Dec 29, 2020 6:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9143992)
Mainstream America and Southern aren't mutually exclusive. Texas has gotten more diverse and cosmopolitan...even accents are more muted in the big cities but it's still very much "Southern/ Southwestern" (depending on where you live) Transplants do adapt. I have and I grew up in the northeast which also has its own vibe despite still being mainstream.

Texas was never Alabama or Georgia but it's own thing. Arkansas and Tennessee are also different than these Deep South states.

thats true of anywhere though. move to the pacific nw you will be wearing fleece and never dress up nice again. move to ohio women will end up with a speak to the manager suburban helmet hairstyle. etc. any region has its own thing. i guess that just reiterates the south is hardly uniform.

craigs Dec 29, 2020 7:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9143622)
It's interesting that you bring up Japan and KFC fried chicken, because in Japan KFC has become traditional Christmas food, to the point that Colonel Sanders statues dressed in Santa outfits are a common sight in December.

That begs the question, is eating KFC at Christmas "American culture" when there is no such tradition in America itself?

Or how about this one: I think everyone can agree sauerkraut is a part of "traditional" German cuisine. And yet it didn't originate in Germany, or even Europe. Sauerkraut is actually from China, transmitted to central Europe via the Tartars in the middle ages.

And of course this doesn't even get into all the issues brought up by the Colombian exchange. Is pizza not Italian because tomatoes are from South America? 250 years ago your average Italian might've thought the dish would kill them, tomatoes commonly being seen as poisonous at the time. And they certainly would've thought of tomatoes as exotic and foreign.

Wait 200 years and chowing down on fried chicken at Christmastime will have as much of a history in Japan as pizza in Italy or modern sushi does in Japan today . Makes one wonder if it will be considered part of "traditional Japanese culture" by then.

Okay, but if subject of this thread were a settled issue in the American context like it is in these other non-American scenarios, then the entire premise of this thread would make zero sense and we wouldn't be discussing it.

Acajack Dec 29, 2020 2:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere (Post 9143884)
My point is that most of the South is only really semi-Southern anyway in a cultural sense (Texas, Florida, West Virginia, much of Virginia etc.)

Much of the South is very much "mainstream America." Transplants and "change" aren't at all marginal to the region.

This makes me think of the "alien" factor. While other Americans (say "Yankees" - am I allowed to say that? :runaway:) may not partake in certain elements of Southern culture like NASCAR or grits or whistlin' Dixie or Jeff Foxworthy comedy, these things will still be familiar to them.

In the case of Quebec, the vast majority of its culture is basically foreign to other Canadians. In many cases they aren't even aware of its existence. Let alone being aware of some rough details (like NYers would at least be about Southern culture). I have actually had "other Canadians" (admittedly not the sharpest tools in the shed) argue with me that Quebec doesn't have a feature film industry, its own game shows and talk shows, etc. These people think that Quebec being different and "French" (sic) just means watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Captain Marvel dubbed in French.

JManc Dec 29, 2020 3:02 PM

^ Quebec: hockey, bagels, poutine, Celine Dion and the reason why road signs in northern New York and Vermont are in French. Oh, and William Shatner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by liat91 (Post 9144292)
I agree that Virginia now looks more towards the NE than south. Parts of it are southern, but so are parts of Maryland and even Pennsylvania.

Once Richmond no longer feels strongly southern, Virginia clearly joins the NE. Same with Jacksonville in Florida, once it flips, there can be no argument that the state is no longer southern. The rest of the historical south is still pretty solid with mainstream islands within.

What? No. Not being southern won't make it northern. If VA banned sweet tea, grits and antebellum architecture, it would not be become northeast.

NoVA feels like most major metropolitan areas; the regional quirks have been flattened out with newcomers from other elsewhere. Hell, NYC is becoming a watered down version of its former self. I think eventually, most major cities will be tied to their region and become generic America with the areas surrounding them retaining their identities.

PhillyRising Dec 29, 2020 4:16 PM

One is assuming that all southern states are the same culturally......I can't imagine Virginia and Mississippi were ever the same in every aspect.

Northern Virginia feels like a Northeastern Metropolis. Once you get below Stafford it feels more "traditional" southern. I didn't feel like Richmond was some southern backwater...but it's not as high end as Fairfax County. I haven't been to Virginia Beach in 38 years.

As for Delaware...it used to feel southern once you crossed over the canal but now with so many new homes being built and occupied from new arrivals from New Jersey and points north along the now completed Route 1 expressway that goes from I-95 in Christiana (just south of Wilmington) to Just Above Lewes/Rehoboth Beach...the Northeast Corridor has crept all the way towards Dover and the Beach Towns were not very "southern" Now any town below Dover along US 13 feels more southern...and the accents sound more southern.

Acajack Dec 29, 2020 4:27 PM

The last time I was in Virginia was maybe 2 years ago on a hot summer day, driving up I-95 and on the dirt frontage road just off the Interstate I spotted a jacked-up pickup with a bunch of guys in cut off jean jackets and girls in daisy dukes and the truck had a Confederate flag waving from the roof.

You can't make this up!

This was of course further than closer to the DC metro area.

jd3189 Dec 29, 2020 5:46 PM

We could also consider the reality that traditional Southern culture ( hillbillies, country, religious, social conservativism, etc) is seen in rural areas nationwide, beyond the geographical limits of the South. In that case, the more urban a place become, the less "Southern" it is.

Docere Dec 29, 2020 6:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc (Post 9144432)
^ Quebec: hockey, bagels, poutine, Celine Dion and the reason why road signs in northern New York and Vermont are in French. Oh, and William Shatner.



What? No. Not being southern won't make it northern. If VA banned sweet tea, grits and antebellum architecture, it would not be become northeast.

NoVA feels like most major metropolitan areas; the regional quirks have been flattened out with newcomers from other elsewhere. Hell, NYC is becoming a watered down version of its former self. I think eventually, most major cities will be tied to their region and become generic America with the areas surrounding them retaining their identities.

Yes, it's becoming more "standardized American" not "Northeastern."

SIGSEGV Dec 29, 2020 8:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd3189 (Post 9144517)
We could also consider the reality that traditional Southern culture ( hillbillies, country, religious, social conservativism, etc) is seen in rural areas nationwide, beyond the geographical limits of the South. In that case, the more urban a place become, the less "Southern" it is.

Yep, going down Route 66 from Chicago, as soon as you hit Wilmington you see confederate flags and NASCAR:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3094...7i16384!8i8192

Buckeye Native 001 Dec 29, 2020 8:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV (Post 9144678)
Yep, going down Route 66 from Chicago, as soon as you hit Wilmington you see confederate flags and NASCAR:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3094...7i16384!8i8192

Hell, that's everywhere. I've seen it in Ohio, Arizona and even California.

Acajack Dec 29, 2020 8:24 PM

Hence all the comments about such and such a rural part of a northern U.S. state being "Alabama, only with snow".

SIGSEGV Dec 29, 2020 8:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 (Post 9144687)
Hell, that's everywhere. I've seen it in Ohio, Arizona and even California.

yeah, this is literally the first town outside the Chicago Metro area :haha:

JManc Dec 29, 2020 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 (Post 9144687)
Hell, that's everywhere. I've seen it in Ohio, Arizona and even California.

and New York, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut...

lio45 Dec 29, 2020 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd3189 (Post 9144517)
We could also consider the reality that traditional Southern culture ( hillbillies, country, religious, social conservativism, etc) is seen in rural areas nationwide, beyond the geographical limits of the South. In that case, the more urban a place become, the less "Southern" it is.

That's true everywhere: the more urban a place, the more "culturally international" / the less "culturally local" it'll be.

jd3189 Dec 29, 2020 11:24 PM

^^^ So based on that definition train, NYC is not Northeastern, Chicago is not Midwestern, LA and SF are not Western, etc.

DCReid Dec 30, 2020 7:52 PM

Well, talk about Virginia - here's some news about Maryland...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...ry/ar-BB1cm8N0


Maryland House leader pledges repeal of state song over Confederate imagery -

The Speaker of Maryland's House of Delegates said Tuesday that the legislature will pass a bill repealing the status of "Maryland, My Maryland," as the state's official song due to its Confederate themes and negative depiction of former President Lincoln....

JManc Dec 30, 2020 9:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd3189 (Post 9144838)
^^^ So based on that definition train, NYC is not Northeastern, Chicago is not Midwestern, LA and SF are not Western, etc.

They are becoming less so over time. Urban America is becoming homogenous. Houston was redneck and honky tonk when I was a kid but now pretty much like any other major US city. New York is far less New York than it used to be.

DCReid Jan 5, 2021 9:59 PM

Well this is surprising - US census even considers Delaware part of the South!

https://www2.census.gov/geo/pdfs/map.../us_regdiv.pdf

Steely Dan Jan 6, 2021 4:21 PM

last night's georgia surprise had me going back to Manitopiaaa's awesome MSA election results thread and i realized something i didn't fully appreciate about VA's blue shift.

we all know that the biggest driver of that shift is and has been NOVA, but a big reason why the state wasn't even close is the fact that the #2 and #3 MSAs (richmond and virginia beach) were also very safely blue.

in fact, richmond's MSA, with a +14.7 for biden, was bluer than all other major midwest/rustbelt metros with the exception of chicago and the twin cities. yes, the richmond MSA was even ever so slightly bluer than metro detroit and metro cleveland, and virginia beach was only a fraction of a point behind them. color me surprised.

Acajack Jan 6, 2021 6:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCReid (Post 9150230)
Well this is surprising - US census even considers Delaware part of the South!

https://www2.census.gov/geo/pdfs/map.../us_regdiv.pdf

It always has been in my mind. Just like Maryland.

Most of Delaware is south of Mason-Dixon.


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