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-   -   Will Virginia lose it's southern status? (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245214)

bossabreezes Dec 24, 2020 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila (Post 9141656)
Worth noting that Virginia was the largest of the 13 colonies, by far. So at the start of the country, it was the 900-lb gorilla that was able to shift the terms of debate and warp the rest of the states around its needs - sorta like California is today.

Actually, this brings up a good point.

California was not part of the US until 1850. It was Mexico beforehand. California has Mexican history, of course, but absolutely nobody would consider California to be ''Mexico.''

History is static but culture undeniably changes. Which is what is happening in Virginia at this very moment.

pj3000 Dec 24, 2020 12:14 AM

What is "southern status"?

memph Dec 24, 2020 12:33 AM

Why is the 19th century the only part of history that matters? Why wouldn't other (more recent) periods of history also matter?

I think that if in more recent history, Virginia behaves more like a Northern state (culturally & politically), for a prolonged period of time, it will make more sense to group it with the Northeast.

I'm not sure we're there yet. Obviously the borders of any cultural region will tend to be more transitional culturally compared to the heartlands of those cultural regions, and that's true with Virginia.

But while Richmond or Hampton Roads/Virginia Beach are less "Southern" culturally than the rural deep South, that's true of most big southern cities (Atlanta, New Orleans, Charlotte, Raleigh even Nashville).

Docere Dec 24, 2020 12:37 AM

I think a lot of people defining "Southern" by voting Republican or being "backward." The fact is region plays actually a very minor role in US election patterns - it is not Canada or Belgium. They're pretty much "demographic-driven."

BG918 Dec 24, 2020 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc (Post 9141170)
Were they part of the Confederacy?



Did Texas fight for the Confederacy? Did Oklahoma? As for Indiana, I know that lynching Blacks certainly was all the rage there, but were they part of the Confederacy?

Look, I know that the thought of being associated with the South in any way whatsoever makes any self-respecting Floridian's balls itch -- unless that Floridian is one of the old guard in the central part of the state or descended from one of those old Everglades clans where were there before Ms. Tuttle ever flounced on down. In which case they hate Black and brown people just as efficiently as any Georgia cracker ever could. However, history and geography are where it's at. Florida is... where, and in the Civil War Florida fought for... whom? There's little escape in more modern history either as when it comes to elections, Florida's voting patterns have been as repellent as Mississippi's. The only difference is your lunatic conservatives have an equal chance of having a Spanish surname.

If it makes you feel better, I assure you that the smart set in Atlanta, Charlotte, et cetera, as with Miami, just cannot compute the thought that a place might be Southern and have their signage in Mandarin at the same time! However, as I said, I think the whole argument is just silly. History + geography = Southern (or not).

Texas was part of the Confederacy. Oklahoma wasn’t a state but some of the tribes in Indian Territory sided with the Confederacy.

Manitopiaaa Dec 24, 2020 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin (Post 9141618)
The gist of it seems to be that a place can be culturally Southern, historically Southern, and/or geographically Southern. The latter two are of course fixed, but culture is more fluid.

Virginia will always be part of the historic South, while Geographically it's more mid-Atlanic than Southern, strictly speaking. Culturally though, it seems to be more aligned with Northern states now.

Personally, I see it more as being part of the "New South" along with Georgia and North Carolina rather than being "not the South". That, or maybe more accurately its just become an extension of the North with most of the population living in the DC suburbs.

I agree with the first two paragraphs, but disagree with the third. The only reason Virginia is lumped in with North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia is because of the old, antiquated Confederacy connection people keep peddling.

From a "human connection" perspective, Virginia is culturally, economically, and socially tied to the North. Northern Virginia is an urban appendage of the North (no different culturally from Maryland, which everyone treats as obviously Northern). And like a chain Richmond is linked to Northern Virginia, and Hampton Roads is linked to Richmond.

That's the Virginia urban crescent. And with the growth of Virginia, that urban crescent is coalescing into a single urban region:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...egaregions.png

Conversely, there are very few ties between Richmond and Raleigh (not even a rail connection, which wasn't even on the radar until recently). In fact, there's a gigantic mental wall between the two, because from Richmond to Raleigh (2.5 hours) there's a whole lot of nothing. I could see Virginia as part of the New South if its urban landscape were a part of the "Piedmont Atlantic" megaregion above. But Virginians don't orient South, but North.

pj3000 Dec 24, 2020 1:56 AM

^ stop posting that stupid fucking map

JManc Dec 24, 2020 3:04 AM

I've been all over Virginia. That state still oozes the South. It's cultural which should never ever go away and I suspect it won't beyond the NoVa area...which even that still retains much of its southern roots. Along with DC. I think we need to move past the stigma of the south = backwards/ confederacy.

memph Dec 24, 2020 3:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere (Post 9141710)
I think a lot of people defining "Southern" by voting Republican or being "backward." The fact is region plays actually a very minor role in US election patterns - it is not Canada or Belgium. They're pretty much "demographic-driven."

"Demographic-driven" in what sense? Although whites tend to vote more Republican a lot of the whitest states are fairly liberal (Minnesota, Vermont), while Republican states like Texas, Mississippi, Louisiana and Florida are among the ones with the most non-whites.

Not that presidential election party preferences are the only things that should be looked at, Mississippi and Montana are both very "red" states but Montana is more about Libertarian small government conservatism while Mississippi is much more socially conservative.

dave8721 Dec 24, 2020 6:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc (Post 9141170)
Were they part of the Confederacy?



Did Texas fight for the Confederacy? Did Oklahoma? As for Indiana, I know that lynching Blacks certainly was all the rage there, but were they part of the Confederacy?

Look, I know that the thought of being associated with the South in any way whatsoever makes any self-respecting Floridian's balls itch -- unless that Floridian is one of the old guard in the central part of the state or descended from one of those old Everglades clans where were there before Ms. Tuttle ever flounced on down. In which case they hate Black and brown people just as efficiently as any Georgia cracker ever could. However, history and geography are where it's at. Florida is... where, and in the Civil War Florida fought for... whom? There's little escape in more modern history either as when it comes to elections, Florida's voting patterns have been as repellent as Mississippi's. The only difference is your lunatic conservatives have an equal chance of having a Spanish surname.

If it makes you feel better, I assure you that the smart set in Atlanta, Charlotte, et cetera, as with Miami, just cannot compute the thought that a place might be Southern and have their signage in Mandarin at the same time! However, as I said, I think the whole argument is just silly. History + geography = Southern (or not).

Parts of Florida did actually fight for the Union against the Confederacy. The only part of South Florida that was populated at the time (Key West) stayed with loyal to the Union and was an important union base against the confederacy, basically allowing the union to blockade the South and prevent the South from doing much business in and out of the Gulf of Mexico.

BnaBreaker Dec 24, 2020 6:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc (Post 9141158)
Demography can change all it wants, but geography cannot and will not. Geography and history dictate where a place is. How it feels is irrelevant. Going by how a place feels, we can therefore declare that Huntsville is not in Alabama because of the presence of NASA, and that the Research Triangle Park is not in North Carolina because Andy and Opie never stroll through en route to the fishing pond.

Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.

Cory Dec 24, 2020 7:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker (Post 9141917)
Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.

110%. I hate when people make where they are from the most interesting thing about themselves.

L41A Dec 24, 2020 8:22 AM

Exactly!:tup:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc (Post 9141116)
Considering that Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy, no.

But then again, despite the fact that the first structure in what became the city of Miami was a sugar cane plantation, complete with slaves, and despite the fact that Florida fought for the Confederacy, and observes Confederate Memorial Day... People will vociferously fight the notion that Miami, or Florida, are Southern. Then again, they do the same with Atlanta, or any Southern city that boasts any diversity beyond the Black and white dynamic.

I think, actually that might be the better determinant of whether a place is Southern. Does it resemble an old episode of In the Heat of the Night? If so, it is Southern. However, if you can reliably obtain a good bowl of tom yum, a decent sushi roll, or if there is an Indian grocery store in the vicinity where one can purchase butter made from water buffalo milk, then it is not Southern.

In case it wasn't clear, I think the whole argument is silly. Is the place in question physically located south of the Mason-Dixon line? Was it a part of the Confederacy? If so, hooray -- it's Southern, no matter the modern demographics. It's akin to arguing up one side and down the other that some crummy suburb of Boston cannot possibly be in New England because it doesn't look like a Currier and Ives print.


jd3189 Dec 24, 2020 8:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker (Post 9141917)
Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.

I agree as well. To me, the South is a geographical region of the US. That's what's it was, is, and always will be. That geographical meaning encompasses the different cultures within that region. In that sense, places like Virginia, Florida, Texas, etc are Southern despite not having the "Southern" culture in a complete sense anymore.

Since the South is mainly defined geographically, it can literally develop any way it wants and add to its history, just like all the other regions of the country.

hauntedheadnc Dec 24, 2020 9:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave8721 (Post 9141908)
Parts of Florida did actually fight for the Union against the Confederacy. The only part of South Florida that was populated at the time (Key West) stayed with loyal to the Union and was an important union base against the confederacy, basically allowing the union to blockade the South and prevent the South from doing much business in and out of the Gulf of Mexico.

So did parts of Western North Carolina, which led to Confederates committing war crimes against Union loyalists at events such as the Shelton Laurel Massacre.

iheartthed Dec 24, 2020 4:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossabreezes (Post 9141615)
New York, erm, New Amsterdam was a Dutch outpost so clearly NYC is Dutch in culture and this can never change, history matters.

Since you brought it up, regional cultural identifiers are also disappearing in New York. The New York accent is fading just as fast as the southern accent.

bossabreezes Dec 24, 2020 6:38 PM

Yup, I live in New York and the accent is not common in the under 40 crowd. The only place that still has an extremely marked accent in the region is Long Island, lots of young folks from there still have a strong LI accent.

Manitopiaaa Dec 24, 2020 7:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker (Post 9141917)
Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.

If it's a reference to geography, then Virginia is clearly northern, as it's on the northern half of the East Coast. This argument has been made a dozen times already and no one has bothered to consult a map before making it?

SpawnOfVulcan Dec 25, 2020 5:52 PM

I've always found the argument that once a state grows into this hub of liberalism it ceases to be Southern a ridiculous one.

lio45 Dec 25, 2020 7:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpawnOfVulcan (Post 9142455)
I've always found the argument that once a state grows into this hub of liberalism it ceases to be Southern a ridiculous one.

That's not the argument. Obviously, God-fearing grits-eating SC/GA blacks who voted Biden are Southern, Cubans in Miami who voted Trump aren't.

Dariusb Dec 25, 2020 7:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker (Post 9141917)
Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.

When I made this thread I was using "southern" referring to the culture of the state and not necessarily geographically. Maybe I should have put that in the initial post.

lio45 Dec 25, 2020 8:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dariusb (Post 9142497)
When I made this thread I was using "southern" referring to the culture of the state and not necessarily geographically. Maybe I should have put that in the initial post.

It's implicit from the mere fact that southernity is being discussed in the first place.

If it were only about geography, then there'd be no ambiguity at all: Tucson, Arizona is more Southern than Memphis, Charleston, Atlanta and Dallas; that's unarguable fact.

Dariusb Dec 26, 2020 3:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142507)
It's implicit from the mere fact that southernity is being discussed in the first place.

If it were only about geography, then there'd be no ambiguity at all: Tucson, Arizona is more Southern than Memphis, Charleston, Atlanta and Dallas; that's unarguable fact.

I just don't see what the big deal is. I started the thread because I thought it was an interesting topic and I wanted to hear people's opinions. I got some very interesting ones. I certainly wasn't trying to cause confusion. In any case thanks to the people who understood and took the time to contribute.

JManc Dec 26, 2020 4:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142491)
That's not the argument. Obviously, God-fearing grits-eating SC/GA blacks who voted Biden are Southern, Cubans in Miami who voted Trump aren't.

But Florida is Southern, even the southern portion which was watered down by Cubans and Yankees. Get a little bit outside the Miami metro and it reverts back to as it was

Will O' Wisp Dec 26, 2020 5:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dariusb (Post 9142661)
I just don't see what the big deal is. I started the thread because I thought it was an interesting topic and I wanted to hear people's opinions. I got some very interesting ones. I certainly wasn't trying to cause confusion. In any case thanks to the people who understood and took the time to contribute.

You did kinda ask for it with that question. Is Virginia losing its southern status because its population is becoming better educated, it voted for Joe Biden, and took down some of its monuments to the confederacy? Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Because if it is, then a whole lot of places in the south aren't very southern, and a whole lot of places in the north aren't northern. Concepts like that don't seem as firm in the 21st century, where rural/urban and service economy/manufacturing divides seem far more prominent than geographic divisions.

BnaBreaker Dec 26, 2020 6:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9142708)
You did kinda ask for it with that question. Is Virginia losing its southern status because its population is becoming better educated, it voted for Joe Biden, and took down some of its monuments to the confederacy? Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Because if it is, then a whole lot of places in the south aren't very southern, and a whole lot of places in the north aren't northern. Concepts like that don't seem as firm in the 21st century, where rural/urban and service economy/manufacturing divides seem far more prominent than geographic divisions.

Well said. Question for those making this argument that Virginia ceases to be southern because it doesn't meet an arbitrary stereotype: Do you consider central Pennsylvania and central New York "southern?"

Docere Dec 26, 2020 5:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9142708)
Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Apparently yes.

Dariusb Dec 26, 2020 5:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9142708)
You did kinda ask for it with that question. Is Virginia losing its southern status because its population is becoming better educated, it voted for Joe Biden, and took down some of its monuments to the confederacy? Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Because if it is, then a whole lot of places in the south aren't very southern, and a whole lot of places in the north aren't northern. Concepts like that don't seem as firm in the 21st century, where rural/urban and service economy/manufacturing divides seem far more prominent than geographic divisions.

No. I never said any of those things and certainly wasn't trying to imply that especially since I'm a southerner myself. You're assuming that's what I meant. Now when I said southern status maybe I should have said culture instead. Anyway, many gave their opinions without making a big deal out of the topic and I've gotten the answer/answers I was looking for. Like I said before thanks to all who contributed and may you all have a great day.

Dariusb Dec 26, 2020 5:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker (Post 9142719)
Well said. Question for those making this argument that Virginia ceases to be southern because it doesn't meet an arbitrary stereotype: Do you consider central Pennsylvania and central New York "southern?"

Maybe you and Will's statement s weren't directed at me specifically but I was not trying to imply southerners were uneducated, backward or anything like that. My question was about the state culturally since it has attracted so many transplants from areas outside of the south.

MonkeyRonin Dec 26, 2020 6:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker (Post 9141917)
Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes.


In general I'd agree, however Virginia is a bit tougher to pin down as it's geographically part of the transitional mid-Atlantic region. In particular, because its population is skewed to the north, there's an argument to be made that it (increasingly) functions as an extension of the Bos-Wash corridor, which is firmly "Northern".

If the NOVA suburbs were to comprise a majority of the state's population, a case could very well be made that it's not really "Southern" anymore.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...lation_map.png

Docere Dec 26, 2020 6:17 PM

Was West Virginia "less southern" than Virginia in 1988?

Steely Dan Dec 26, 2020 6:19 PM

West Virginia should probably be renamed "East Kentucky" at this point.

pj3000 Dec 26, 2020 6:31 PM

People in New Orleans consider people from Shreveport to be Yankees.

lio45 Dec 26, 2020 9:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dariusb (Post 9142661)
I just don't see what the big deal is. I started the thread because I thought it was an interesting topic and I wanted to hear people's opinions. I got some very interesting ones. I certainly wasn't trying to cause confusion. In any case thanks to the people who understood and took the time to contribute.

It's a broader topic.

"Maryland and Delaware are totally Southern culturally in 2020 and will forever be, because they're south of the Mason-Dixon Line geographically" is an interesting discussion to have. Personally, my view is clear - culture and geography are separate concepts and the former can change.

Maybe I'm aware of that due to living in Quebec, which is always only a couple generations away from becoming Louisiana - a Canadian province just like all the other ones.

If you told me (or anyone else) that Quebec is forever guaranteed to be culturally distinct just because it was so at some point in its history, you'd be laughed out of the room.

Now, the only semi-logical argument I've seen to deem NoVa Southern but MD/DE not, is secession in the Civil War 160+ years ago, and it does not hold any water upon scrutiny - it's like saying that Scottish culture would only start to exist if Scotland voted to leave the UK, or that if Quebec voted ever so slightly differently in 1995 (50.5% Leave/49.5% Remain instead of the opposite) and re-joined Canada five years later, its status as Culturally Distinct would be set in stone until the end of times.

If Tennessee voted 50.5% Leave, 49.5% Remain while Kentucky voted 49.5% Leave, 50.5% Remain in early 1861, these two states are now totally culturally different in 2020?!? Makes zero sense.

lio45 Dec 26, 2020 9:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9142708)
You did kinda ask for it with that question. Is Virginia losing its southern status because its population is becoming better educated, it voted for Joe Biden, and took down some of its monuments to the confederacy? Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Because if it is, then a whole lot of places in the south aren't very southern, and a whole lot of places in the north aren't northern. Concepts like that don't seem as firm in the 21st century, where rural/urban and service economy/manufacturing divides seem far more prominent than geographic divisions.

? No one said anything like that.

As MonkeyRonin pointed out, if Virginia becomes an extension of the BosWash Corridor culturally, then that's not Southern anymore. Period.

If ~2 million Ontarians from the GTA decided to relocate to the NCR and they all settled in Gatineau, the city would instantly lose its current "no question that that's culturally a Québécois city" status, despite the fact that all those square feet of land are still part of the province.

Dariusb Dec 27, 2020 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142983)
It's a broader topic.

"Maryland and Delaware are totally Southern culturally in 2020 and will forever be, because they're south of the Mason-Dixon Line geographically" is an interesting discussion to have. Personally, my view is clear - culture and geography are separate concepts and the former can change.

Maybe I'm aware of that due to living in Quebec, which is always only a couple generations away from becoming Louisiana - a Canadian province just like all the other ones.

If you told me (or anyone else) that Quebec is forever guaranteed to be culturally distinct just because it was so at some point in its history, you'd be laughed out of the room.

Now, the only semi-logical argument I've seen to deem NoVa Southern but MD/DE not, is secession in the Civil War 160+ years ago, and it does not hold any water upon scrutiny - it's like saying that Scottish culture would only start to exist if Scotland voted to leave the UK, or that if Quebec voted ever so slightly differently in 1995 (50.5% Leave/49.5% Remain instead of the opposite) and re-joined Canada five years later, its status as Culturally Distinct would be set in stone until the end of times.

If Tennessee voted 50.5% Leave, 49.5% Remain while Kentucky voted 49.5% Leave, 50.5% Remain in early 1861, these two states are now totally culturally different in 2020?!? Makes zero sense.

Thanks for your opinion and how you explained it.

Dariusb Dec 27, 2020 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000 (Post 9142868)
People in New Orleans consider people from Shreveport to be Yankees.

Really? I've heard them say things like people in Shreveport are more like an extension of east Tx.

Dariusb Dec 27, 2020 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan (Post 9142863)
West Virginia should probably be renamed "East Kentucky" at this point.

I wonder if W. Virginia never split from Virginia would they have a different economic outlook or it wouldn't matter?

Manitopiaaa Dec 27, 2020 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dariusb (Post 9143083)
I wonder if W. Virginia never split from Virginia would they have a different economic outlook or it wouldn't matter?

They'd be much, much wealthier for sure (aka, their welfare state would be subsidized by Nova). Politically, they'd be no different than they are today. The Appalachian parts of Virginia, for example, behave no differently than their West Virginia brothers.

lio45 Dec 27, 2020 1:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa (Post 9143091)
Politically, they'd be no different than they are today.

Except for Virginia(s) having 2 Senators instead of 4.

Acajack Dec 27, 2020 1:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142983)
It's a broader topic.

"Maryland and Delaware are totally Southern culturally in 2020 and will forever be, because they're south of the Mason-Dixon Line geographically" is an interesting discussion to have. Personally, my view is clear - culture and geography are separate concepts and the former can change.

Maybe I'm aware of that due to living in Quebec, which is always only a couple generations away from becoming Louisiana - a Canadian province just like all the other ones.

If you told me (or anyone else) that Quebec is forever guaranteed to be culturally distinct just because it was so at some point in its history, you'd be laughed out of the room.

Now, the only semi-logical argument I've seen to deem NoVa Southern but MD/DE not, is secession in the Civil War 160+ years ago, and it does not hold any water upon scrutiny - it's like saying that Scottish culture would only start to exist if Scotland voted to leave the UK, or that if Quebec voted ever so slightly differently in 1995 (50.5% Leave/49.5% Remain instead of the opposite) and re-joined Canada five years later, its status as Culturally Distinct would be set in stone until the end of times.

If Tennessee voted 50.5% Leave, 49.5% Remain while Kentucky voted 49.5% Leave, 50.5% Remain in early 1861, these two states are now totally culturally different in 2020?!? Makes zero sense.

It also depends whether the definition of "Southern" changes. But in order for that to happen most of the South needs to be on board.

For example in the case of "Cajun" the definition has evolved to eliminate from the belonging requirement any knowledge of French or associated culture in order to be considered part of it. The definition of Southern or even Québécois could very well be similarly "dumbed down" (so to speak, sorry) at some point.

xzmattzx Dec 27, 2020 2:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142983)
It's a broader topic.

"Maryland and Delaware are totally Southern culturally in 2020 and will forever be, because they're south of the Mason-Dixon Line geographically" is an interesting discussion to have. Personally, my view is clear - culture and geography are separate concepts and the former can change.

Maybe I'm aware of that due to living in Quebec, which is always only a couple generations away from becoming Louisiana - a Canadian province just like all the other ones.

If you told me (or anyone else) that Quebec is forever guaranteed to be culturally distinct just because it was so at some point in its history, you'd be laughed out of the room.

Now, the only semi-logical argument I've seen to deem NoVa Southern but MD/DE not, is secession in the Civil War 160+ years ago, and it does not hold any water upon scrutiny - it's like saying that Scottish culture would only start to exist if Scotland voted to leave the UK, or that if Quebec voted ever so slightly differently in 1995 (50.5% Leave/49.5% Remain instead of the opposite) and re-joined Canada five years later, its status as Culturally Distinct would be set in stone until the end of times.

If Tennessee voted 50.5% Leave, 49.5% Remain while Kentucky voted 49.5% Leave, 50.5% Remain in early 1861, these two states are now totally culturally different in 2020?!? Makes zero sense.

I'm not sure where in this discussion the Mason-Dixon Line began, but Delaware is not south of the Mason-Dixon Line; it's actually east of the Mason-Dixon Line.

Will O' Wisp Dec 27, 2020 6:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 9142992)
? No one said anything like that.

As MonkeyRonin pointed out, if Virginia becomes an extension of the BosWash Corridor culturally, then that's not Southern anymore. Period.

If ~2 million Ontarians from the GTA decided to relocate to the NCR and they all settled in Gatineau, the city would instantly lose its current "no question that that's culturally a Québécois city" status, despite the fact that all those square feet of land are still part of the province.

There's certainly an implication if it running through the concept. Virginia isn't giving up barbecue, fried chicken, or southern accents.

To use your metaphor, what if Gatineau gave up the idea of nationalism? They keep their language, their cuisine, their culture, the only difference is that these new Québécois think of themselves as Canadians first and foremost. They firmly advocate against any form of special categorization in terms of the law, believing it harms national integration. Politically they vote more similarly to Ontario than they do to most other regions of Quebec. If that happened would Gatineau lose its "Quebec status", even though walking around you wouldn't see a lick of difference between it and anywhere else in the province?

Docere Dec 27, 2020 7:00 AM

Quebec is a much more of a distinctive society than "the South" - which is home to nearly 40% of the US population.

hauntedheadnc Dec 27, 2020 1:39 PM

Well, let's just distill things a bit here.

So, people are saying that there is a geographical and historical South, and a cultural South. If that's the case, then what, exactly, is this Southern culture -- and more importantly, why can that Southern culture not include big cities, aggressive drivers, Hindu temples, signs in Mandarin, Catholics, decent dim sum, bodegas, conveyor belt sushi, El Salvadorans, subzero winter temperatures, and all the rest?

Just going from the stereotype of Southern "hospitality" alone, anyone who thinks Southerners are hospitable has never driven in the South. Atlanta is home to the most vicious drivers on the planet.

Acajack Dec 27, 2020 4:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp (Post 9143207)
There's certainly an implication if it running through the concept. Virginia isn't giving up barbecue, fried chicken, or southern accents.

To use your metaphor, what if Gatineau gave up the idea of nationalism? They keep their language, their cuisine, their culture, the only difference is that these new Québécois think of themselves as Canadians first and foremost. They firmly advocate against any form of special categorization in terms of the law, believing it harms national integration. Politically they vote more similarly to Ontario than they do to most other regions of Quebec. If that happened would Gatineau lose its "Quebec status", even though walking around you wouldn't see a lick of difference between it and anywhere else in the province?

Gatineau is already part-way there, as francophones here support independence in much lower numbers than elsewhere in Quebec. To the tune of about 25% in the last referendum vs. 50-70% in the rest of Quebec.

Separatist parties also don't fare very well here and they've only extremely sporadically elected reps from here, though municipal politicians with separatist leanings generally do OK - the city has no power to separate from Canada.

We are also OK with more general Québécois nationalist principles, if they stop short of independence.

For example the CAQ won 3 of 5 seats in the region in 2018.

Buckeye Native 001 Dec 27, 2020 7:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc (Post 9143255)
Just going from the stereotype of Southern "hospitality" alone, anyone who thinks Southerners are hospitable has never driven in the South. Atlanta is home to the most vicious drivers on the planet.

Ditto Miami, bit that opens up a whole other can of worms about what's "southern" when you start throwing South Floridians into the mix.

My gf's mom is from West Virginia. I never fully appreciated how much of an insult it is to say "bless your heart" to someone until she starts talking about her extended family.

hauntedheadnc Dec 27, 2020 8:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 (Post 9143364)
My gf's mom is from West Virginia. I never fully appreciated how much of an insult it is to say "bless your heart" to someone until she starts talking about her extended family.

The only time "bless your/his/her/their heart" is not an insult is when you're referring to a child, or someone with intellectual disabilities, and usually one who has injured themselves. Of course, if you're referring to a child who is ugly, annoying, or stupid, then it's as much of an insult as when you use it with anyone else.

iheartthed Dec 27, 2020 8:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dariusb (Post 9143083)
I wonder if W. Virginia never split from Virginia would they have a different economic outlook or it wouldn't matter?

It'd be the same, but the residents would have access to better in-state colleges.

JManc Dec 27, 2020 8:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc (Post 9143255)
Just going from the stereotype of Southern "hospitality" alone, anyone who thinks Southerners are hospitable has never driven in the South. Atlanta is home to the most vicious drivers on the planet.

Atlanta is a big cosmopolitain area with people from everywhere living there. Like Houston. It's still southern but heavily influenced by decades of northerners and immigrants moving in and driving like assholes. Traffic has always been bad has become progressively more aggressive.


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