SkyscraperPage Forum

SkyscraperPage Forum (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php)
-   Canada (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18)
-   -   Canadian Airport Thread (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153826)

casper May 19, 2020 3:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8926218)
I'll flesh out your good points re: domestic LCC.

1. Demand is very uneven within Canada. Domestic travel peaks in summer and markedly declines in the winter. So, unless you're running a peaker-service, you're probably losing money in the off-months which could be 8-9 months of the year. Also, most domestic travel from Quebec is within Quebec or the neighbouring provinces because of the language barrier, so travel by car is very dominant there.

2. The bulk of domestic flight demand in Canada is concentrated in travel between 3 major regions - Toronto/Montreal corridor, Calgary-Edmonton and Vancouver. Within those regions, one typically travels by land means - with the exception of business flights between Montreal and Toronto. So, there's not a ton of unserved city pairs that a LCC can tap with significant demand.

3. The best route for a new airline in this country is to have an existing one go belly-up. Westjet had Canadian Airlines expire as they rose (nearly giving Air Canada a coronary in the process), so they had a major opening there. Otherwise, both healthy airlines can zealously protect their turf. Since AC and Westjet are both healthy, they can afford to stomp any competition.

The best avenues for LCCs in Canada are sun flying, summer Europe travel and skimming some off the top during peak summer domestic season, which is what they are doing now.

The only other thing to add is Transat and Sunwing are not in some ways not in the business of selling airline tickets. They do sell airline tickets especially to Europe, but in most other cases people are buying vacations from the parent company. They are looking a glossy flyer and comparing the 4 star vrs 5 star hotel and contemplating if they want to spend extra for the balcony or not. The airline is a secondary consideration and in most cases a hidden cost.

Dominion301 May 20, 2020 2:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wave46 (Post 8926218)
I'll flesh out your good points re: domestic LCC.

1. Demand is very uneven within Canada. Domestic travel peaks in summer and markedly declines in the winter. So, unless you're running a peaker-service, you're probably losing money in the off-months which could be 8-9 months of the year. Also, most domestic travel from Quebec is within Quebec or the neighbouring provinces because of the language barrier, so travel by car is very dominant there.

2. The bulk of domestic flight demand in Canada is concentrated in travel between 3 major regions - Toronto/Montreal corridor, Calgary-Edmonton and Vancouver. Within those regions, one typically travels by land means - with the exception of business flights between Montreal and Toronto. So, there's not a ton of unserved city pairs that a LCC can tap with significant demand.

3. The best route for a new airline in this country is to have an existing one go belly-up. Westjet had Canadian Airlines expire as they rose (nearly giving Air Canada a coronary in the process), so they had a major opening there. Otherwise, both healthy airlines can zealously protect their turf. Since AC and Westjet are both healthy, they can afford to stomp any competition.

The best avenues for LCCs in Canada are sun flying, summer Europe travel and skimming some off the top during peak summer domestic season, which is what they are doing now.

For #2, you're missing a city.

Hint:

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-f1dfb9c34071/

Quote:

'I think the industry will adjust. This country needs to fly': Ottawa airport CEO Mark Laroche

wave46 May 20, 2020 5:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 8927390)
For #2, you're missing a city.

Hint:

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-f1dfb9c34071/

Mea culpa. Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor.

nname May 20, 2020 5:55 PM

AC now removed all flights to China until July 1, after the Chinese authority announced yesterday to forbid foreign airline to pre-sale tickets if they are not already fly to China.

The one passenger flight per week per airline rule will likely stick until at least the end of Summer.

hollywoodcory May 20, 2020 8:54 PM

Alberta is setting up infrared scanners at YYC & YEG to test the temperatures of arriving "international" guests even though neither airport has seen a flight from outside North America in close to two months and there is next to nothing scheduled at both in June either.

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/internat...plan-1.4946607

kwoldtimer May 20, 2020 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory (Post 8927861)
Alberta is setting up infrared scanners at YYC & YEG to test the temperatures of arriving "international" guests even though neither airport has seen a flight from outside North America in close to two months and there is next to nothing scheduled at both in June either.

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/internat...plan-1.4946607

So many questions ... :shrug:

whatnext May 20, 2020 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 8927658)
AC now removed all flights to China until July 1, after the Chinese authority announced yesterday to forbid foreign airline to pre-sale tickets if they are not already fly to China.

The one passenger flight per week per airline rule will likely stick until at least the end of Summer.

So China gets to send its planes to fly between here and there, yet Air Canada does not?

How is that fair? :shrug:

hollywoodcory May 20, 2020 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatnext (Post 8927937)
So China gets to send its planes to fly between here and there, yet Air Canada does not?

How is that fair? :shrug:

Each airline (domestic and international) are limited to a single weekly flight as per Chinese restrictions. I also believe the airline had to already have been operating when the restrictions when it place and since AC wasn't flying to China in March, they can't fly at all.

This would also apply to Delta and United who both wanted to resume flying to China in June as well.

thenoflyzone May 21, 2020 12:00 AM

Are you seriously expecting fair and reasonable from China?

If I was the leader of this country, you wouldn’t see a single Chinese carrier here since the outbreak started, and until it’s over.

[mod edit]

BenYOW May 21, 2020 12:10 AM

NAV CANADA has released a proposal to raise its service charges by an average of 29.5% to account for reduced revenues.

Goes to show that few parts of the aviation sector are untouched by the impacts of COVID-related air travel downturn.

thenoflyzone May 21, 2020 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenYOW (Post 8928066)
NAV CANADA has released a proposal to raise its service charges by an average of 29.5% to account for reduced revenues.

Goes to show that few parts of the aviation sector are untouched by the impacts of COVID-related air travel downturn.

To be expected. NavCan has fixed costs it has to deal with, even when there is a sharp decline in revenues. At least it only starts September 1, 2020, and airlines will be able to defer the payment increases over the next five years.

nname May 21, 2020 5:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nname (Post 8927658)
AC now removed all flights to China until July 1, after the Chinese authority announced yesterday to forbid foreign airline to pre-sale tickets if they are not already fly to China.

The one passenger flight per week per airline rule will likely stick until at least the end of Summer.

[UPDATE]
AC reopened June flights to China. The plan is to operate 1x weekly YVR-PVG service using 77W (450 seat version?).

AC also updated their plan for the summer. Now more routes had been cancelled for the season or had their restart delayed (many to Aug 1). For those that are operating had their frequency slashed for June and July. Most notably, the following roues will not run at all this summer (this is not a full list since I can't remember what it was before):

YUL-BCN
YUL-LYS
YUL-PVG
YUL-DUB
YUL-MEX
YYZ-SCL-EZE
YYZ-LIM
YVR-DUB
YVR-KIX
YVR-SYD

https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/...na-travel.html

hollywoodcory May 21, 2020 6:55 PM

YYC-CUN also got canned for the summer too. Was previously suppose to resume in July.

Airboy May 21, 2020 9:08 PM

welll I have to start flying again next month. This should be interesting. YEG to YVR. That or I drive for 12-18 hrs and spend 6-8 hours on site. then drive back.

thenoflyzone May 21, 2020 9:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airboy (Post 8929019)
welll I have to start flying again next month. This should be interesting. YEG to YVR. That or I drive for 12-18 hrs and spend 6-8 hours on site. then drive back.

Most of the cancelations are Canada-international.

Both AC and WS are still active on YEG-YVR. You should be fine.

lubicon May 21, 2020 9:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airboy (Post 8929019)
welll I have to start flying again next month. This should be interesting. YEG to YVR. That or I drive for 12-18 hrs and spend 6-8 hours on site. then drive back.

Other than much fewer flight options than before I don't see the downside of flying right now. Airports and planes are virtually empty, it might actually be better than before.

LO 044 May 22, 2020 1:09 AM

Two recent interesting stories:
1. WestJet - https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/wes...irus-1.5578719
I didn't even know this rule existed. So any company in Canada that lays off 50+ people is required to give 4 months notice or essentially pay?

2. Air Canada - https://business.financialpost.com/t...old-says-union
Not surprised here but wouldn't the same 4 month rule apply as above for WestJet.

I'm curious what people think about this around the country. Frankly i don't know what to think about the above. It is not unexpected. I don't think my (publicly traded) company would even keep me around for 2-3 years. In fact some of my coworkers are on temporary lay off but from what i understand you can only do this for 6 months. After that, "decisions" will need to be made from what i have been told.

I don't think taxpayers money should bail out people that literally won't be working 2-3 years. EI is one thing but the CERB and wage subsidy is a bottomless pit. It is well documented. Being based in Alberta, i had read someone saying "hey when my i lost my oil job, all the environmentalists told me to go work at a wind farm or solar plant, why don't we do that to the airline workers" which i thought was an interesting point. Did the fisherman out east or the forestry workers in BC get 2-3 years in free pay for not fishing? They got money for retraining. Perhaps that should happen to the airline employees i dunno. I guess the auto workers got bailed out and how has that turned out. Off to Mexico. I haven't seen Elizabeth May or Yves Blanchet come out and say stop bailing out the airlines either although no one is surprised by that.

I'm curious what people's perspectives are on this. I'm still an avgeek at heart. To be fair i don't think the CFL should get government money either.

Truenorth00 May 22, 2020 1:45 AM

The government hasn't yet moved to bailout the airlines. Just enough to protect the workers. And I'm happy about that. Unfortunately there's now talk about buying stock warrants to give some companies a bailout. Not happy about that. Companies that acted irresponsibly should, at minimum, have their shareholders diluted substantially.

nname May 22, 2020 2:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00 (Post 8929346)
The government hasn't yet moved to bailout the airlines. Just enough to protect the workers. And I'm happy about that. Unfortunately there's now talk about buying stock warrants to give some companies a bailout. Not happy about that. Companies that acted irresponsibly should, at minimum, have their shareholders diluted substantially.

If the company is financially responsible, they will need to cut cost and lay off every employee who is no longer needed. If the company is socially responsible, then they will be financially screwed. You can't have the best of both worlds.

rbt May 22, 2020 2:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00 (Post 8929346)
Companies that acted irresponsibly should, at minimum, have their shareholders diluted substantially.


If you disallow loans or leasing aircraft, there will never be another new Canadian airline ever again. Air Canada would jump for joy over that rule; imagine not having to worry about another Porter or Sunwing or Air Transat appearing ever again.


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:39 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.