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speedog Feb 5, 2016 7:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 7325795)
Sure.

Point is, he needs to understand that city population has no direct or linear relationship with its airport passenger volume.

it's different for virtually every city/airport pair, from YYC, to YUL, to ATL, to YHZ etc...Due to several factors. So as long as someone doesn't know why that is and is amazed by it, others more in the know will fill them in. And that is the whole point of forums such as these.

Thenoflyzone

In all honesty, my eyes do not gloss over at the sight of new tails or airport statistics one way or another. It was a simple statement by myself looking at the numbers and while some get quite up in arms and such when either YUL or YYC pushes past the other, I don't really give a damn.

I am well aware there are a lot of dynamics at play here but one still can't blindly ignore the fact that Montreal's CMA population is over three times as much as Calgary's. Personally, I would expect Calgary to be down somewhere around 10,000,000, closer to YEG's numbers but after poking around the YEG thread on Edmonton's subforum, it is quite apparent that some things are weighted in favour of YYC.

Never the less, I would still expect YUL to be more - sorry if I got anyone's knickers in a knot.

Riise Feb 5, 2016 7:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 7325795)
So as long as someone doesn't know why that is and is amazed by it, others more in the know will fill them in. And that is the whole point of forums such as these.

The way in which this knowledge is often shared is one of the reasons why forums such as these devolve into bickering.

VIce Feb 5, 2016 8:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 7325574)
That's exactly it or why Ottawa, which is virtually the same size as Calgary, is at 4.6 million vs. YYC's 15 million. Ottawa's within a day's drive of approx. 100 million people and has the 3rd busiest train station in the country (actually there's two stations within the city), whereas Calgary's in the middle of nowhere and with no rail service, hence, apart from Edmonton, has the need to fly to get just about anywhere of any significance.

Apart from CUN, Calgary's air service is the envy of all cities under 2 million population in North America...or just about anywhere for that matter. It's in the perfect geographic location to be a major regional hub. It's also why YHZ's at 3.7 million - it's been a regional hub for decades and is relatively isolated, despite the city's population being a mere 450k it's pax count is on par with Winnipeg, a city almost double the size and is only about a million pax behind YOW.

And even then, the Edmonton-Calgary traffic alone warrant, what, 150 weekly flights?

thenoflyzone Feb 5, 2016 8:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyeg66 (Post 7325826)
Understandably, people on the defensive feel the need to respond. My bad.

I don't see anyone who is on the defensive. Simply illustrating a fact. That is all. This thread was pretty objective until you started mentioning that a "part of you is dying"

cyeg66 Feb 5, 2016 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 7326104)
I don't see anyone who is on the defensive. Simply illustrating a fact. That is all. This thread was pretty objective until you started mentioning that a "part of you is dying"

Call it what you like. Sounds pretty defensive i.e. "providing justification" for YUL's comparatively low #'s to YYC's high numbers, any and every time the two are mentioned in the same sentence. Now go ahead, remind me how this is a forum and that's what they're intended for (all of them to which you contribute and drum out the same, canned (not incorrect, I'll add) response(s) to the same question). That's clearly your prerogative, don't let me get in the way of you typing the same shit, same pile, over and over. Copy and paste works wonders, btw... In doing so, you're positioning yourself as low hanging fruit. As G.W. Bush once put it, "we're gonna smoke them out of their holes". You get "smoked out" of yours every time, and I mean every time, YUL and (gasp!) YYC are compared. In case you missed it, I "talk up" YUL when I can. You of all can probably understand why I might.

Fact is, you won't change speedog's opinion/assertion/amazement that the two are identical (and have been for over 20 years, for countless reasons) in passenger throughput because at the end of the day, they ARE equal in throughout. Speedog's perfectly entitled to be surprised by that fact. The reasons behind WHY they are is irrelevant. They just ARE. Trying to explain WHY they ARE suggests you feel the need to go on the defensive. "But..but..but, it's BECAUSE blah blah blah....."

Go ahead and fill me in on how I'm wrong. :rolleyes: I know you're like a dog with a bone. Lol, you mentioned the "dying inside" part because you knew I was singling out your role in this. It was a pretty obvious euphemism (to me, and others, I think), but maybe I should go see my doctor, just to be sure.

thenoflyzone Feb 6, 2016 2:44 AM

^

Dude, take it easy man....you're gonna give yourself a heart attack.
you do realize that i'm not the one that answered speedog right.

Nicko999, jmt18325 and Dominion301 are the ones that did. I wasn't even going to post anything, until a part of you died, that is....;)

Bigtime Feb 6, 2016 2:31 PM

This thread is tearing Nav Canada apart. ;)

trofirhen Feb 6, 2016 11:06 PM

I know YVR has a large % of overseas (pred'm' Asian flights) but a bit lower than YUL, which has the highest % of overseas pax, even more than YYZ, which is 2nd place.
But it still amazes me that it's the second largest airport in the country !!!
Nevertheless, It makes me shake my head a bit, that YUL is almost 4th place, YYC gaining. At one time YUL was one of the 3 busiest airports in North America, with JFK and ORD, I believe. This of course was due to Dorval, at that time, being THE major jumping-off point (though it does retain its foreign pax % and exotic destination roster right up there -
ex: Casablanca and Algiers, as well as Lyon and Toulouse!)
Well, things do change. Gander was once the busiest Transatlantic airport (and can retain its pride as bieng the largest air traffic control gound station in the world!!)
Toronto becoming another Western Dubai or Istanbul, YVR surging ahead, Canada is, overall, doing well in the aviation world, it would seem. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Blader Feb 7, 2016 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trofirhen (Post 7327043)
I know YVR has a large % of overseas (pred'm' Asian flights) but a bit lower than YUL, which has the highest % of overseas pax, even more than YYZ, which is 2nd place.
But it still amazes me that it's the second largest airport in the country !!!
Nevertheless, It makes me shake my head a bit, that YUL is almost 4th place, YYC gaining. At one time YUL was one of the 3 busiest airports in North America, with JFK and ORD, I believe. This of course was due to Dorval, at that time, being THE major jumping-off point (though it does retain its foreign pax % and exotic destination roster right up there -
ex: Casablanca and Algiers, as well as Lyon and Toulouse!)
Well, things do change. Gander was once the busiest Transatlantic airport (and can retain its pride as bieng the largest air traffic control gound station in the world!!)
Toronto becoming another Western Dubai or Istanbul, YVR surging ahead, Canada is, overall, doing well in the aviation world, it would seem. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Decent post by you. Historically, in 1967, Expo, Montréal was Canadas largest and premier city and the gateway to Europe. By fiat, foreign carriers only had access to Montréal. Montréal was killed by the two airport system in 1974, international Mirabel, and domestic, Dorval.

Those were heady years. Supersonic travel, Concorde and SST, mega airports, and dreams.
The first oil shoku killed supersonics and domestic to international connections from Dorval to Mirabel killed Montréal. Foreign carriers demanded access to Toronto and got it. One airport feed.
I wonder if Mirabel had never been built would Montréal reign supreme? We will never know.

Riise Feb 7, 2016 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blader (Post 7327072)
I wonder if Mirabel had never been built would Montréal reign supreme? We will never know.

Aside from those that can remember, I don't think all too many people know that Montreal use to be "the" Canadian city. If Mirabel was never built, I think losing the Canadian crown would also have had an impact. However, it is possible that airlines could have trenched in and the impact would not have been as great as the impact from splitting domestic and international.

Nicko999 Feb 7, 2016 5:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blader (Post 7327072)
Decent post by you. Historically, in 1967, Expo, Montréal was Canadas largest and premier city and the gateway to Europe. By fiat, foreign carriers only had access to Montréal. Montréal was killed by the two airport system in 1974, international Mirabel, and domestic, Dorval.

Those were heady years. Supersonic travel, Concorde and SST, mega airports, and dreams.
The first oil shoku killed supersonics and domestic to international connections from Dorval to Mirabel killed Montréal. Foreign carriers demanded access to Toronto and got it. One airport feed.
I wonder if Mirabel had never been built would Montréal reign supreme? We will never know.

In my opinion, Montreal would have been better off if no airport existed in Dorval. Mirabel would still exist today and would be thriving. Right now, with the city' growth, some people in the Greater Montreal area live closer to Mirabel than to Dorval. Of course we all like YUL proximity to downtown (and it was obvious why airlines and passengers preferred that airport) but it is limited in its growth. Who knows, maybe in 10-15 years Montreal would need a 2nd airport. Mirabel potential growth was unlimited.

The result (of YUL not existing) would be Mirabel being at least the 2nd busiest airport in the country and Dorval having plenty of land for development.

thenoflyzone Feb 7, 2016 1:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blader (Post 7327072)
Decent post by you. Historically, in 1967, Expo, Montréal was Canadas largest and premier city and the gateway to Europe. By fiat, foreign carriers only had access to Montréal. Montréal was killed by the two airport system in 1974, international Mirabel, and domestic, Dorval.

Those were heady years. Supersonic travel, Concorde and SST, mega airports, and dreams.
The first oil shoku killed supersonics and domestic to international connections from Dorval to Mirabel killed Montréal. Foreign carriers demanded access to Toronto and got it. One airport feed.
I wonder if Mirabel had never been built would Montréal reign supreme? We will never know.

Mirabel did have an affect, yes, along with the first referendum. When the first referendum happened in 1980, Montreal handed Toronto #1 city status on a silver platter. Until then, the two cities populations were almost equal, around 3 million metro each. After 1980, Toronto's population skyrocketed (4 million by 1990), and Montreal's started to stagnate (still at 3 million in 1990). Businesses and corporations left Quebec and moved to Toronto. The rest is history.

Closing Dorval and moving everything to Mirabel would have been better, but Montreal's fate was sealed the minute Quebecers felt the need to separate.

1overcosc Feb 7, 2016 7:35 PM

Montreal gave up its status as Canada's #1 city in order to become a francophone city, essentially. It's a trade off I'm sure most Montrealers are good with.

flipv Feb 7, 2016 7:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc (Post 7327544)
Montreal gave up its status as Canada's #1 city in order to become a francophone city, essentially. It's a trade off I'm sure most Montrealers are good with.

Toronto was always going to be #1, the writings on the wall were there since the turn of the 20th century. It was growing faster, building bigger buildings, building a subway before anyone else, etc. The separatists managed to accelerate it by about a generation, but it was bound to happen - francophones or not.

thenoflyzone Feb 7, 2016 8:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipv (Post 7327552)
building a subway before anyone else, etc.

Aha...!

Speaking of subways. That's one mode of transportation where Montreal leads the nation. Montreal metro is the busiest in the country (daily & annual ridership) and the largest (in terms of length of the network).

I guess That's what happens with a poor province...everyone uses public transportation!

Innsertnamehere Feb 7, 2016 8:50 PM

Toronto's subway will be longer by next year, as will Vancouvers.

Montreal may win on the ridership front for a while longer though, Montreal has 25% on Toronto (1.25 million riders daily vs. 1 million daily)

SkahHigh Feb 7, 2016 9:47 PM

Montreal's network will grow 5.2km with the Blue line extension. Anyway, this belongs in another thread.

G.S MTL Feb 7, 2016 10:31 PM

Isn't the blue line extension 7km long? Operational
By 2020? And aren't they also studying the extension of the yellow line?

GernB Feb 7, 2016 11:46 PM

Oversimplistic IMO to put too much blame on OPEC for Mirabel's failure. The lack of cooperation between federal and provincial governments was a much larger factor. The planned connecting autoroute from Dorval and high speed rail link were never built, and the proposed industrial park never came to fruition. A lot of things would have had to go right, but there's little reason to think that had both (federal and provincial) parties acted openly and honourably rather than in in petty self-interest and sheer pig-headedness, Mirabel would not have largely fulfilled its early promise.

Alexcaban Feb 8, 2016 12:29 AM

I still find it amazing that with the economic downturn in Alberta, YYC still managed to pull a 1.4% increase.

Even with Hainan Airlines coming this year, the worst is still to come. WestJet has announced cut backs, route cancellations and Air Canada will not be adding anything for a while.

Sorry YYC fans, I don't want to sound mean but YUL will take its 3rd place back and will keep it for years to come, now that Air Canada wants to build it up a a strong eastern hub.

flipv Feb 9, 2016 2:59 PM

Digging deeper into YYZ's numbers, even though PAX increased by 6.4%, terminal movements have only increased 2.5%. This means bigger and fuller planes, more passengers. Pearson's facilities aren't really geared towards this, and the crowded conditions in the International Hammerhead highlight this.

Time to rethink some major pieces of the airport. Waiting facilities need to be bigger, retail needs to be bigger, but there is only finite room within the terminal envelope. They'll have to get creative, and I'm sure the next pier will look nothing like what was planned (formerly more geared towards smaller jets).

SkahHigh Feb 9, 2016 3:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipv (Post 7329241)
Digging deeper into YYZ's numbers, even though PAX increased by 6.4%, terminal movements have only increased 2.5%. This means bigger and fuller planes, more passengers. Pearson's facilities aren't really geared towards this, and the crowded conditions in the International Hammerhead highlight this.

Time to rethink some major pieces of the airport. Waiting facilities need to be bigger, retail needs to be bigger, but there is only finite room within the terminal envelope. They'll have to get creative, and I'm sure the next pier will look nothing like what was planned (formerly more geared towards smaller jets).

I think YYZ's waiting areas are fine. The only thing I have trouble with is the overpricing at the airport. Try getting stuck at YYZ without having to pay $15 for food.

flipv Feb 9, 2016 3:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkahHigh (Post 7329247)
I think YYZ's waiting areas are fine. The only thing I have trouble with is the overpricing at the airport. Try getting stuck at YYZ without having to pay $15 for food.

Late afternoon/evenings is hellish at T1 - European and Asian departures crowd the hell out of the hammerhead. Problem is all the new retail and dining options have taken space away from gate seating.

Then there's T3 - God help them.

I haven't bought food at YYZ in years.. I have a Priority Pass membership so I spend my time in the lounges. ;)

DrNest Feb 9, 2016 5:35 PM

There are plans to extend Terminal One at Pearson and build a new pier where the Jazz and Georgian Dash-8s and Beech1900s park. That would obvious free up/create much more space for passengers. However, when ground will break and construction actually begin I have no idea. The last map I saw of this plan had it built by 2010... I'm told from those on a bigger pay grade than me that these plans are still being considered and are more likely a case of when rather than if.

flipv Feb 9, 2016 5:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNest (Post 7329452)
There are plans to extend Terminal One at Pearson and build a new pier where the Jazz and Georgian Dash-8s and Beech1900s park. That would obvious free up/create much more space for passengers. However, when ground will break and construction actually begin I have no idea. The last map I saw of this plan had it built by 2010... I'm told from those on a bigger pay grade than me that these plans are still being considered and are more likely a case of when rather than if.

My understanding is the plan for Pier G was pushed back after the recession, but now they're scrambling to do something before it really begins to impact passenger comfort.

There was a recent study done (1-2 years back or so) where the vendor assigned pax % growth scenarios. The high estimate was about 2.8% growth to 2020 annualized, and we're already at 6.4% this year, and 6.8% last year. They need a new study methinks...

1overcosc Feb 9, 2016 6:08 PM

If they ever get around to building it Pickering Airport will help massively.

Innsertnamehere Feb 9, 2016 7:19 PM

There is a lot of growth at Pearson available before Pickering is needed, especially if the trend of pax numbers increasing faster than aircraft movements continues.

Pickering is only needed if all the expansion plans at Pearson are built fully, and Pearson can probably double their capacity before running out of space.

speedog Feb 9, 2016 7:49 PM

Well it was too good to last, YYC's 30 minutes of free parking in the short term parkade disappeared today - it's now a minimum $3 fee now. Guess that just leaves the cell phone lot that's free now and you can't leave a vehicle unattended there.

DrNest Feb 10, 2016 2:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc (Post 7329506)
If they ever get around to building it Pickering Airport will help massively.

The 6th and 7th runways will get built at Pearson before Pickering is even considered.

Tropics Feb 10, 2016 2:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedog (Post 7329686)
Well it was too good to last, YYC's 30 minutes of free parking in the short term parkade disappeared today - it's now a minimum $3 fee now. Guess that just leaves the cell phone lot that's free now and you can't leave a vehicle unattended there.

That sucks bigtime. Now they are going to get slammed at the drive through and require twice as many people running around telling people they cannot stop their car for more then 3 seconds while they find their passenger or their passenger sees their ride.

Dumb move by YYC. This is going to be a headache for everyone involved, passengers and the airport both.

casper Feb 10, 2016 5:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flipv (Post 7329489)
My understanding is the plan for Pier G was pushed back after the recession, but now they're scrambling to do something before it really begins to impact passenger comfort.

There was a recent study done (1-2 years back or so) where the vendor assigned pax % growth scenarios. The high estimate was about 2.8% growth to 2020 annualized, and we're already at 6.4% this year, and 6.8% last year. They need a new study methinks...

Simple solution, reactive the infield terminal. Bring back the fancily shuttle busses. The charter airlines and the ones the require extra or special security can be moved out there.

Bigtime Feb 10, 2016 2:02 PM

What does the infield terminal service now? When I passed through YYZ a couple of weeks ago I saw an EVA 77W that had diverted from JFK parked at one gate, and an AC 77W at the other.

I understand the reason to use it for a diversion that was bound for another country, like the EVA example. I'm also guessing that is where the Syrian refugee flights unloaded. Any other uses?

flipv Feb 10, 2016 2:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by casper (Post 7330307)
Simple solution, reactive the infield terminal. Bring back the fancily shuttle busses. The charter airlines and the ones the require extra or special security can be moved out there.

Sensible suggestion, given that the GTAA has recently reactivated/remodeled it for the Syrian refugee flights.

DrNest Feb 10, 2016 3:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigtime (Post 7330437)
What does the infield terminal service now? When I passed through YYZ a couple of weeks ago I saw an EVA 77W that had diverted from JFK parked at one gate, and an AC 77W at the other.

I understand the reason to use it for a diversion that was bound for another country, like the EVA example. I'm also guessing that is where the Syrian refugee flights unloaded. Any other uses?

It is used to process the refugee flights, and parking for diversions, or other large aircraft that may be at Pearson for a while. Last year when the Antanov A225 was here it was parked on the apron by the infield terminal.

thenoflyzone Feb 12, 2016 12:44 AM

Wonder when YUL will post its 2015 stats. Should be soon.

Here is a picture I took of the international jetty yesterday morning, around 8h30am. All gates occupied (including the 3 international gates not shown off to the right). 2 Air Transat planes are also parked at two of the 6 new gates at the end of the jetty. That section opens later this year.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1715/...7e7aa019_b.jpg
YUL international Jetty from the control tower
by thenoflyzone, on Flickr

Johnny Aussie Feb 12, 2016 2:56 AM

^ nice wintery pic!

Looks like there will be a few pax heading off to warmer climes....

Dwils01 Feb 12, 2016 3:48 AM

Record growth for the Sault Airport.
Quote:

The Sault Ste. Marie Airport saw a record number of passengers travel in 2015 increasing 3.2 percent from the 2014 level to reach the new record level of 201,347 passengers.

This historical record since SSMADC ownership began in 1998 is a major increase from the record low of 121,991 in 2010 an improvement of 65.1 percent from that historic low in a short five year period.

The Sault Ste. Marie Airport also saw a record level of aircraft movements in 2015 eclipsing the previous 2012 high of 66,009; with a 2015 total of 66,693 a 1.7 percent increase over 2014.
https://www.sootoday.com/local-news/...-levels-195932

G.S MTL Feb 12, 2016 3:52 AM

thenoflyzone do you work in the ATC?

thenoflyzone Feb 12, 2016 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.S MTL (Post 7333203)
thenoflyzone do you work in the ATC?

Yes.

Bigtime Feb 12, 2016 2:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 7333410)
Yes.

"Permission to buzz the tower?"

thenoflyzone: "Negative, the pattern is full."

<buzzes tower>

<thenoflyzone spills coffee all over his pants>

thenoflyzone: "Dammit, I want some butts!"

thenoflyzone Feb 12, 2016 2:51 PM

^
Long live coffee cup lids !

http://i.giphy.com/6c1giRDmzdvdm.gif

It's also a good thing i'm not in bagotville or Cold Lake !

SignalHillHiker Feb 12, 2016 3:05 PM

Happy City did a breakdown of the airport bus situation.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2ew3bsg.jpg

G.S MTL Feb 12, 2016 5:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 7333410)
Yes.

so I hear you on the ATC?? lol... I usually listen to approach/departure and ground hehehe

wacko Feb 12, 2016 8:11 PM

Lol at the "almost!" transit in Regina. No one in their right mind would cross a busy expressway with no crosswalks and then haul bags across a narrow bridge with no sidewalks. There's a paved path to the airport after the bridge though, if you manage to survive until then. ;)

SkydivePilot Feb 13, 2016 4:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wacko (Post 7333926)
Lol at the "almost!" transit in Regina. No one in their right mind would cross a busy expressway with no crosswalks and then haul bags across a narrow bridge with no sidewalks. There's a paved path to the airport after the bridge though, if you manage to survive until then. ;)

Some people still do it though. Lol! :)

Denscity Feb 13, 2016 5:33 PM

We got a city bus that goes to YCG. 5 times a day maybe?

DDP Feb 13, 2016 6:08 PM

An article about the Montreal airport

http://montrealgazette.com/business/...h-james-cherry

J81 Feb 13, 2016 8:15 PM

It saddens me to see the lack of 747 service to Canada! It used to be the mainstay of AF flights to Canada as well as LF and BA. Even Alitalia flew fat Al to YYZ.

thenoflyzone Feb 14, 2016 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDP (Post 7334780)
An article about the Montreal airport

http://montrealgazette.com/business/...h-james-cherry

All in all, a good article. James Cherry is on point and illustrates the milestones achieved thus far and the challenges that face YUL in the coming years.

However, I hate to break it to John Mahoney, but that's not the control tower in the picture. :uhh:

casper Feb 14, 2016 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J81 (Post 7334890)
It saddens me to see the lack of 747 service to Canada! It used to be the mainstay of AF flights to Canada as well as LF and BA. Even Alitalia flew fat Al to YYZ.

The 747 is dying out everywhere. There still service on the west coast.

- Lufthansa is flying the 747 into YVR currently.
- BA is flying the 747 into YVR currently, thought in the summer A380 will takeover.
- EVA are running the 747 into YVR.
- Air China is also doing the 747 into YVR.
- Qantas is season into YVR, however it is exclusively a 747 service.

In the summer we likely see our first 747-8 service. However as airlines bring online A380, 777 and 787 the old 747 will die out.

We use to has Cathy Pacific and Japan Airlines with 747 but those days are long gone. Today the 787 and 777 dominate most of those routes.


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