Urban Noise: the symphony of the city
cut from an off-topic discussion from another thread:
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we got a 3 bed/3bath 2,300 SF condo in a 3-flat in a "good" neighborhood of chicago for $420K. granted, the brown line rumbles directly down our alley every several minutes, so that knocks down the value a bit, but still, not bad at all for a family-sized home in a major, urban US city. i just zillowed toronto and couldn't find a single 3 bed/3 bath property of any type for sale under $450K ANYWHERE within city limits. not a single one. i bumped the max up to $600K, and a handful of properties appeared on the fringes of the city (ie. the least urban, least interesting parts of city proper toronto). |
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That's in one of Toronto's...um.....less preferred areas. Best I could do, for 3 bed, 3 bath, except for one very undesirable condo. $549,000CAD, that's $414,000 USD (its also a condo) $590,000CAD would get your this townhome in the inner burbs. (444,000 USD) https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/2...onto-guildwood Cheapest fully-detached, 3brdm, 3bath I could find, that is not condo.... https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/2...onto-rouge-e10 $689,000 CAD, $520,000USD. Right at the edge of Toronto proper. Anyways, were getting OT, that's my fault! Back to Englewood |
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And I would imagine the L noise would be a major factor in your street's relative affordability. I've stayed at the Chicago Hilton and could barely sleep due to the L a block away. No doubt you get used to it, though. Quote:
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the main issue is when you go to sell, a certain percentage of people won't even consider something that close to the el tracks (similar to a property across the street from a sewage treatment plant or an airport), so with a smaller pool of potential buyers, it can take longer to move such properties. our own home had been on the market for 6 months when we bought it. it was first listed at $480K, then dropped to $460K, then dropped to $440K, and we were then able to negotiate it down to $420K (420! LOL, it was meant to be ;) ). $400K was our target, so we didn't go too much above, but because of the el track discount we did get more home than we otherwise could have comfortably afforded in a neighborhood like lincoln square. and yes, you totally get used to the noise. this wasn't my first rodeo living next to the el, so it was no big deal for me. it probably took my wife a month or so before she was fully acclimated to it. and the flip side of living with el noise is that it does mean you're VERY close to rail transit, which is highly sought after in chicago, so there is some silver lining. Quote:
still though, search zillow for 3 bed/3 bath homes in chicago for under $500K USD. hundreds upon hundreds of options all over the city. search zillow for 3 bed/3 bath homes in toronto for under $662K CAD. a only a small handful of properties out in areas like scarborough and etobicoke. toronto is simply a more expensive market than chicago for purchasing real estate. which isn't surprising considering that it's growing like a weed while chicago stagnates. scarborough and etobicoke are nice enough places, but i'll take an old pre-war neighborhood like lincoln square any day, all day. |
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Do you have a deck or outdoor space? I'd be afraid to have my kids playing outside, that close the train, for fear of debris or perhaps hearing loss. |
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there is absolutely zero concern of debris falling from the tracks because there is a 20' deep parking pad and a 22' wide alley ROW between our back "yard" and the elevated tracks. as for hearing loss, i don't know if that's a real concern or not, but kids have been growing up next to the noisy-ass el tracks of chicago for well over a century now, and i've never heard anyone say anything about it. ie. there's no commonly shared knowledge saying not to do so that i'm aware of. it is pretty fucking loud when a train rumbles by, but it's a very sporadic noise that only lasts for like 5 seconds and then it's gone. i can see how some people might be annoyed by living so close to the el, but i actually find it really cool. it makes me feel more connected to the big giant city i live within. in a weird way, it was actually kind of a selling point for me. i mean, TRAINS!!!!!! |
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^ LOL, such a classic chicago scene (hell, that whole fucking movie is such a classic chicago scene).
but a vanishing one. i don't think there are too many SRO's slapped up against the el tracks like that left anymore, for better or worse. |
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I lived right below the path jets used from NAS Oceania when I lived in Virginia Beach. Was it loud? YES! Annoying sometimes? At first. Could it seriously have hurt my hearing? Highly...highly doubt it. And these are freaking jets...flying low. |
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I won't stay at the Hilton, which is like 1.5 blocks from an L train. Obviously one can get used to the noise, but others won't consider living in such close proximity. And I seriously doubt that low-flying jets are remotely comparable to the L. |
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el trains clock in at about 90 decibels along the brown line, if they are at speed. comparable to standing close to a gas lawn mower. some of the screeching around curves can get pretty irritating in a "nails on a chalk board" kinda way, but we live next to a straight run of track, so it's just that deeper rumble of a fast moving train on an elevated steel structure, no screeching. commercial jet engines vary anywhere from 120 - 140 decibels at take-off. military jets, like the kind that might fly in and out of NAS oceania can be even louder if they have their afterburner on. coincidentally, we also live directly underneath the approach path to one of ohare's runways, so we also get jets flying overhead all day long to compliment the el trains. but we're about 10 miles from the end of the runway, so the planes are still several thousand feet up in the sky and not quite so loud, though still very, very audible, especially those old MD-80s. we also live close to swedish convenant hospital, so we get a lot of ambulance sirens as well. ah, the symphony of the city. i find dead quiet places to be a little spooky. where's the noise? |
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It probably isn't the same. But I would bet you never heard a jet close up. I haven't heard the L in a long time(a dang shame) so I can't compare the two with any accuracy but it's loud enough to make the Navy alter their training paths during a music festival. https://www.pilotonline.com/military...651cde505.html |
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https://scienceline.org/2010/11/can-...-your-hearing/ I'm not saying that all, or even most will be affected, but it's an issue. And it isn't just the health risk; some don't like loud noises. When we were apartment-hunting, I wouldn't consider anyplace near Flatbush Ave., since it's a major arterial with tons of traffic. I don't want to hear honking and trucks braking. |
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^ here's a pic from a year ago of my kids watching an el train roll past our back deck.
https://s14.postimg.cc/4csipzgdt/deck_train.jpg Quote:
no, not at all. kids have been growing up next to the el tracks for over a century now, apparently without issue. |
On a related note, I own 2 rental properties that have the L running directly behind them.
One of them is separated by a decent sized yard, so that one hasn't been a problem. The other one is on N Bissell in the Ranch Triangle area of Lincoln Park and has the L running literally right out the rear window. Despite being a kick ass apartment, I have often had difficulty getting the top floor apartment rented. My leasing agent tells me that countless prospects love the apartment until they get to the bedroom next to the L. Then they stop, stare out the window, and watch the L go by over and over again. Afterwards, they leave and never call her back! :haha: |
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But even when I lived out in Queens (Forest Hills) we would hear ambulance sirens, police cars, and honking cars all of the time. And keep in mind that I lived on the 30th floor of an apartment building. It's hard to escape those sounds in cities. When we lived in Manhattan it was actually less noisy because we were at the back of the building (away from the street), plus I believe NYC must have some sort of law that requires emergency vehicles to switch to a lower decibel siren at nighttime. I really appreciated that when I lived there. |
If noise means you can't get to sleep, that's a serious health issue.
When back-up alarms were mandated, that must have been a big problem for anyone living near a store with late-night deliveries for example. I bought my current place on the alley side, on a block where businesses don't have doors to the alley. It's blissfully quiet. |
The older I get, the less tolerant of urban noise. When I was single, I lived in the middle of Houston and it was noisy AF. Sirens, helicopters, traffic, random human outbursts, etc but now married and banished to the suburbs and I appreciate the quiet. Even if this area has no personality.
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Sirens and motorcycles are the biggest noise source for me (1.5 blocks from, with line of sight, to Roosevelt Station). If I open my window at night, I can hear the station announcements though (I think they're supposed to stop being so loud after 10 pm, but they forget sometimes). But still the sirens and motorcycles are much worse. I don't know how small the motorcyclists dicks must be that they make so much noise.
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fortunately, the human brain is a phenomenally adaptive organ. the el trains rolling down our alley kept me awake at times for about the first two weeks after we moved in. my wife took a little longer to adjust, about a month or so. our kids seemed unfazed by it. it helps that the el noise is a deep rumbling thunder-type sound which, while loud, can be much easier for the brain to block out than the more piercing sounds of an ambulance siren, for example. however, i'm sure that people who live across the street from hospitals with emergency rooms eventually learn to block out ambulance sirens too. we really are pretty amazingly adaptable little creatures, and a lot of people who say things like "i could never put up with that" are mostly talking out of their asses, because if they actually lived with it long enough, their brains would learn to put up with it. now, that doesn't mean that people aren't allowed their preferences, and that those who feel they are more sensitive to noise than others shouldn't seek out what they want, i'm just pointing out that our brains can learn to do some pretty amazing things all on their own, even things we erroneously believe they can't do. like block out el trains rumbling down your alley every 5 minutes all night long. |
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A big part of that is the regularity of the noise. I grew up next to the 401 freeway (busiest in North America, etc, etc), and was very much acclimated to the constant, round-the-clock roar of traffic. I now live on a busier street downtown with general constant noise, but the only real problem are the garbage trucks that roll through a couple times a few nights a week (it's fine if my window is closed though). Aside from those 3AM garbage pickups though, I'm otherwise quite fond of the perpetual "urban symphony" happening outside my window though. The muffled din of conversation, laughter, and music from the patio next door; the rumble of passing streetcars; the occasional siren; my upstairs neighbours' dog running around - love it all. |
At 30 floors up I've grown to love the white noise of the nearby Gardiner Expressway. Might be a different story if I was below the 10th floor right adjacent too it, but as of now the only time I hear a distinguishable noise is when a motorcycle or some rich kid in their Ferrari goes full throttle up the on-ramp. Annoying for the 5 seconds if you're trying to fall asleep, but not enough to wake me up.
Streetside in an older residential neighbourhood is different though. Too much variety of noises at inconsistent times. I absolutely can't deal with screaming kids or barking dogs. |
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Several years ago I lived 200' from a viaduct in central Seattle (the one being demo'd right now). That was good noise...the constant roar drowned out a lot of the annoying noise. |
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the el trains in our alley don't faze me. but the obnoxious dickwads who roll around town on their open pipe harleys? those guys should go fuck themselves. |
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Loud pipes save lives doe. Huhuhu.
The only thing more annoying might be coal rollers. |
I don't mind the noise of traffic going by under my upper-floor corner unit. The streetcars a block away aren't noticeable unless they use their air horns to get somebody off the trackway. Airplanes and helicopters are intermittent in terms of noise--sometimes I hear them, usually I don't.
I really hate the unmuffled motorcycles. Those guys are basically the aural equivalent to the assholes smoking cigars in public spaces: "See what I can do to you? Doesn't it suck? Ha ha!" It's even worse when the motorcycle racket sets off car alarms. On busier nights, we probably get a good dozen loud siren runs past our place between work and bedtime. There are other sirens in the area as well, but as long as the emergency vehicles don't stop nearby, they can be manageable and unobtrusive (if they stop nearby, however, everyone in the 'hood rushes to the windows). I usually can't manage to sleep through the super-noisy 5:00 am garbage truck runs, but that lasts fewer than five minutes and I'm back to sleep. If I'm awake, I usually notice barking dogs and obnoxiously loud people, but I don't when I'm sleeping. Overall, I am accustomed to the noise of the city, and I too don't care for silent places. I'm used to the urban symphony, even if there are too many 'virtuosos' at times. |
Loud motorcycles and loud stereos...yeah those are douchebags.
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I'm about 10 houses away from the MoPac tracks in north Austin. It's freight trains all day and night, along with Amtrak several times. Next to the tracks is the MoPac expressway/tollway. I'm right under an incoming flight path for approaches to the airport, and the aircraft are at 2,000 to 3,000 ft as they fly over.
When I'm outside, it's noisy as hell. Trains, planes, motorcycles, cars, trucks, sirens. I love the sound of the Amtrak trains, though, as well as the planes. The freight trains are ok unless an engine is idling near by (I absolutely hate that). Until I replaced my old single pane windows, all the noise came inside. And the freight trains caused the windows to rattle. Once I replaced the windows with good quality double panes, all of the sounds are gone except for the one thing I hate...the idling locomotives. That sound penetrates and drives me crazy if I happen to wake up in the middle of the night. I've tried my noise canceling headphones but they're uncomfortable. So I just put up with that. None of this seems to have any effect on property values except for the houses immediately adjacent to the tracks. Just thought of something. Before I replaced my windows, one thing that was nuts was garbage trucks emptying dumpsters in the middle of the night. I'm about 1500 ft from the nearest location where this happens, (along a major commercial strip) but when they put the dumpsters down, it's incredibly loud. I don't know if anyone else mentioned this yet. |
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In Oregon, if you "show off" a loud stereo in your car, it's a $1500 fine, and in some jurisdictions the fines have escalated to $2500, and in some jurisdictions, they can impound the vehicle, and in some places in the Deep South, they can even throw you into jail. The decibel levels from some of these car stereo's can reach 140 decibels, beyond the threshold of pain. But they're quite easy to get out of your neighborhood, providing they don't park in a garage.:notacrook: In Edmonton, Alberta they now have Noise Radar, similar to Speed Radar, whereas you can get a ticket in the mail for having a loud muffle or loud stereo in your car. The last mayor of NYC, I understand, went on a campaign to make NYC the quietest big city in the country. Car alarms are illegal in NYC, due to excessive vandalism of people annoyed with them waking them up in the middle of the night. Boom cars, no way! And I saw the signs on my last trip to NYC: $350 fine for honking your horn in a residential neighborhood. And I understand police sirens were banned, but ambulance/fire truck sirens were not banned. People don't realize that Noise is a health hazard. Go ahead an laugh: Extra loud noises can even trigger heart attacks in some people. |
My apartment building backs onto Shanghai's Outer Ring Expressway, which is 4 lanes of jammed or congested traffic in each direction more than 16 hours a day. Sure, with the windows open you get some traffic noise in the bedroom, but with the windows closed most of the sound is pretty much eliminated. And being 24 floors up keeps the noise down quite significantly all by itself.
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Only real noise I've had to deal with in my apartment since moving in here several months ago was the nearly constant barrage of firecrackers/fireworks every evening from a couple of weeks before the 4th of July all the way through early August. ;) It's amazing how much Chicagoans love to blow things up! Haha
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Chicago is unbelievably affordable for a city of its size and scope. I took a stroll through the Wrigleyville area just east of the Redline Addison stop and found numerous listings around 300k and rent as low as $1200. Quiet residential streets, nice trees, walking distance to the El, $1200. This would be around $3,000-4,000 in Southern California.
There's a ton of new condos/apts being built in Marina del Rey. Word of mouth is that the rent is $7,800/month. |
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Instead of the polite trolley "ding ding" you would get the conductor blaring the train horn. Leaning on the horn for 5, 10, 15 seconds. This would happen at 5:30am, 11:30pm -- basically anytime the T was operating. Like you said, the first 2 weeks, it would wake me up, afterwards I could sleep through anything, including a fire alarm. The FD was in the building by the time I got up and evacuated. |
Yesterday reminded me of this thread. I was at a drive-thru(horror, I know) and a jet interrupted my order and the worker just said repeat...then we were interrupted again so she said repeat again.
I seriously forgot how loud those jets are in Virginia Beach. You could be screaming your order and it still wouldn't be heard. |
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Yeah, the police here in America using radar to fine people for loud music isn't going to work. It may be a law on the book, but it won't be widely enforced. It will be turned into a "racially charged law" or whatever else the media will think up. |
the noise of the city is nothing compared to the 100db of my partner snoring loudly next to me, so i wear earplugs. lol
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Yes, high rise living, way up, has its advantages, besides the views. I lived on the 38th floor of a high rise in Minneapolis, and with windows closed, you couldn't even hear a siren or firecracker. Far more quiet than being out in the country. When I moved to my current place in Tucson, walking distance to the Emergency Room at Tucson Medical Center, I thought what a big plus that was, until I started hearing the Emergency Helicopters flying over my community, day and night! |
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I'm going to take my condenser mic and record outside my window tonight. Not sure how to calibrate it properly (any good ideas of a fixed-SPL source?), but it should be interesting!
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There are only three major north/south routes through my city and I live on one of them. This means that for a good ten or so hours a day the road in front of my house is a wall of moving metal. It also means cop cars, fire trucks, and ambulances go up and down the road all the time. On top of all that, I used to work nights and my husband still does, so we'd be sleeping when traffic was heaviest. Thankfully the master bedroom is at the back of the house, so the house itself blocks a lot of noise, and earplugs and a fan are usually enough to blunt the rest.
In the rest of the house though, traffic noise is constant. |
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Outraged, I did an email campaign to the Tucson City Council members, the Mayor and the Pima County Supervisors, relating to them what other cities have done to crack down on these Noise Terrorists. NoiseFreeAmerica does their Noisy City Awards, occasionally, and I threatened to inform this organization of the unwarranted noise in downtown Tucson. Apparently, the Mayor sent my email to a Police Captain, and he called me and, unbelievable, I had to tell him there was a $100 fine for loud, thumping boom cars. Fines double with each offense. So, he invited me to return to downtown Tucson the next weekend to see the changes. I didn't return for 6 months later and I have to admit my email campaign was a success. I talked to an old-timer here about this issue, and he said that way back when, police cars had decimeters in their vehicles to detect unwarranted noise. In Las Vegas, so as not to scare off the tourists/conventioneers with boom cars going up and down the Strip, they have one vehicle with decimeters that patrols the Strip for boom cars. Given that Tucson has the worst city streets in the nation, I told them in my email, if you're looking for road money, to jack those fines up for boom cars to $1-2000 and you'll get your road money. By the way, you can buy a decimeter for about $40. |
I think people with really loud music look stupid. However, if all I hear is the "system"...I don't care too much.
It's when someone is stopped at a traffic light or at a gas station with LOUD music blaring FUCK N-word and every other derogatory word in the book. I can't take that person seriously, they are douche bags. Losers. Anti-social. |
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