Misread the post, sorry.

Or check the CIVP take

http://www.caivp.org/waterfront_hi.wmv

Right on! They don't speak to it specifically, that I can tell, but the CAIDV site provides concurring remarks about expanding the workign waterfront. To me that says yes.

But with that said, I have doubts about the staying power, influence, or politcal power of this organization.

Btw, my passion is transportation and congestion relief... where does teh CAIDP stand on that? Additionally, is this group even famialiar with the proposal to bring high speed rail to San Diego... right to Santa Fe Depot? If that project moves forward it'll do more to downtown San Diego than what Horton Plaza did, the Trolley, or the convention center. Combined probably.

Your passion for HSR is appreciated, but not the solution. If you want a good read on public transportation, in the midst of the highway boom, read "The Great Society Subway". San Diego does not need HSR, it needs a subway system that connects the CBD to the core of the city (South of 8, West of 15)

Tell me, when the entire problem of San Diego's congestion is the North County Sprawl, why on earth should we spend an enourmous sum of money to ease their commute into the CBD? The Subway has created a TRUE boom in DC, simply because people chose to move closer to transportation that connected them to jobs. You don't bring transportation to sprawl.

I do not disagree with you at all about a San Diego subway. What I was alluding too was that the proposed California High Speed Rail system has a great ability to pop travellers from elsewhere in the state easily into San Diego... and particularly downtown San Diego. Although commuters from Escondido or UTC area destined to downtown would benefit too, because stations would be located in those places, those users weren't whom I was writing about. At least not todays commuters.

The California High Speed rail system is largely designed/planned for statewide travel... trips longer than 200 or 300 miles. Think of the French TGV or the German ICE or Japanese Shinkansen and trains getting up to 220 mph for long distances.

My support for high speed trains takes a cue from the observations that the state will have 60 million residents by 2050. There's no way in the world we can 1) build our way out of congestion by continuing to widen roadways, 2) reduce dependance on foreign oil, 3) effectively/effeciently expand airports adequately, or 4) effectively fight global warming and air pollution... without investment in other forms of transportation. And, assuming a fixed finite dollar investment in each mode... our dollars go further with high speed trains, pardon the pun. But note, I'd never recommend investing all those fixed dollars into one mode... it should be balanced among modes. And I think today is the day to begin greater investment in high speed trains because they do much more to alleviating congestion at our airports and regional/state highways.

About a subway... those are great for providing a separated right-of-way for trains. They enable uninterupted travel, higher speeds, greater capacity, and greater access to dense urban areas. Ideal areas are in downtown cores like here in downtown San Diego. If trains operated up to Hillcreast and along El Cajon or University out to I15 or SDSU, a separated alignment like a subway would be good there too. Offhand, I cannot imagine other areas in the region where there is enough density, traffic congestion and insufficient space at-grade as these areas mentioned... and would warrant the service.

btw, I just looked up that book and bought it off of Amazon.

Agree on all counts. The sad thing is, as you will find out from the book, in order to spear head projects as large as these, there has to be people in power that are willing to go head to head, for years mind you, with traffic engineers. On top of that, the political muscle to press on even as all the naysayers wish for their wider freeways. I hope that people with forsight come into power soon. As you said, one can't build themselves out of conjestion.

Your point is correct... I know this stuff pretty well.

^ A subway in SD would probably not occur until after a new airport and we know how much of a priority that is for the city now :(

I do agree that HSR would be good for commuting further distances, like to Oceanside, whereas a subway would do alot to connect the citiys' "uraban villages".

I love Balboa Park and think that having such a world class park right in the urban center of the city is wonderful and would be VERY opposed to cutting through it for transportation purposes, but it does make commuting to the Hillcrest-North Park or "mid-town" area difficult. Unlike alot of cities with a central downtown, we have the coast to our west and Balboa Park to our north making road options to uptown limited. I think it's idiotic that you can take a trolley out to La Mesa but can't even go up the hill to Hillcrest!?

As the uptown and Bankers Hill areas also continue to have alot of cool urban developments it would be nice if downtown were better connected and a subway would be awesome, but I'm afraid it's just wishful thinking now

SANDAG had issued an RFP about a year ago in summer of 2007 for a transit corridor study along 4th and 5th avenues, designed to implement a bus loop similar to the Super Loop as proposed in UTC. Route alternatives were also included in documents I saw relating to CCDC's C street realignment as conceived by SOM (whereby the potential uptown bus corridor would connect with C street). I would say its a possibility that we might see a branded bus route connecting uptown to downtown in the next 2-3 years (possibly sooner depending on its complexity), although it seems silly, given the present existence of current routes, that this type of plan couldnt be implemented without formal study (but I guess thats the political world we live in these days). I for one would be gracious to whoever has the financial guts to step up and start a private bus service loop from hillcrest to downtown on the weekends. A dedicated bus loop is the only way we'll have any type of frequent reliable service between the two given the cost of a street car and the public complain on loss of right of way. That being the case, its a fine solution in my opinion, assuming it has decent headways.

I think I know what you're referring to, however, I don't believe the RFP was for a bus loop. I believe it was for a traffic calming type plan for Hillcrest and with 4th and 5th having a bus only lane. A dedicated loop from downtown to Hillcrest is not needed, imo, as there is already a ton of buses linking the two areas.

This map at this link indicates routes 3 and 120 are on 4th and 5th while route 11 is on 1st Avenue.

Both Route 3 and 120 come every 15 minutes straight up to Hillcrest.

I live on 1st and have no problem heading downtown on the 11, which also comes every 15 minutes, and often do for Padre games or meeting with friends for drinks. Or even heading down to take pictures of construction. :D

About a subway up to there... I think sending the Trolley through the park is an ill concieved idea. I think if such a thing ever were to occurr... it should be underground.... probably underneath 5th Ave. From there... turn right and go down University 'til Park... and then either switch up to El Cajon or continue down University. Stay on either all the way 'til I15 or go to SDSU somehow. The southern area... I think straight down 5th all the way to the Harbor and the current tracks and tie in with those. Maybe continue further south and go under the bay and link with Coronado! Gee.... it's fun to think of this stuff! :tup:

Btw, here are maps of the prefered alignment for the proposed California High Speed Rail system. I am adding these to the post for 2 reasons; we need more pics and it clarifies the project as discussed above.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...l/chsramap.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n.../HSR-SoCal.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...ail/HSR-SD.jpg

HSR can suck my.....without SD in it's first (and only) phase.

:)

Why on Earth are we even talking about HSR? It may be a neat idea and some people may even feel passionately about it but I can't see many more unnecessary things this state could waste its money on.

Another subject can always be introduced to supplant this one. but, discussing the project here has merits.

Up in San Francisco they are very energetic about the proposals for Transbay Terminal. The building is a mixed use and will obviously include transit. HSR too. Three proposals have been submitted with at least 2 of them being over 1000 feet. Maybe all three.

I ask you (or anybody for that matter) to think of the possibilities for something here? There is yet to be some local interest for redeveloping Santa Fe Depot, but if it comes here that is exactly what will need to be done. We're not talking about Amtrak trains or Coaster service. We're talking about something like the French TGV having a southern terminal here. HSR coming to San Diego could be the launching point for discussions on putting the current heavy rail stuff below grade... and freeing up access to getting to the Bay and what-not. HSR will bring thousands of daily travellers to SD each day. Liesurely travel will increase too... and bring many more $ to downtown. It certainly could not hurt property values! In fact, I saw an article on wha tthe French TGV has done for property values around their stations. The same would likely happen here.

FYI for those interested:

Published Tuesday, August 21, 2007, by Assetz Property News Service

Rail boost for French property

As anybody who has done their homework on the property market will
know, the key to making good returns on an investment is having it in
the right place. As the Channel 4 series of the same name says,
"location, location, location" is of prime importance.

A key part of location is accessibility. Unless the investor has an
eye to catering to a market that is seeking solitude and isolation way
up in the hills -- perhaps a writer on retreat, for example -- the
chances are they will want to make sure their property is easily
accessible to all potential clients.

A number of reports earlier this year have concluded that it is
beneficial to have an airport served by budget airlines in reach of
the property. One German study found that there was as much as a 20
per cent difference in the returns made by investors, depending on
their proximity to a budget airline landing zone.

Investors on the popular French market will no doubt be delighted then
to hear that the country's famous high-speed rail system -- TGV -- is
being expanded all the time and is set to cover even more of the
country over the next few years. What is more, France can now be
reached by rail from the UK via the Channel Tunnel, allowing for
seamless almost door-to-door travel.

According to the Daily Telegraph, "the development of France's
high-speed rail network is opening up potential new markets for
overseas buyers". A new service between Paris and Strasbourg was
launched earlier this month and reportedly cut travel times between
the two cities by half.

The Telegraph claims that the new line "will increase property prices
not just in Strasbourg itself but in other destinations too, such as
Reims and Colmar", which are near enough to benefit from the new line.

And some commentators are suggesting that a growing trend towards
environmentally-friendly tourism will result in more people using
trains to get around, as they are less polluting than air or road
transport.

Short-haul flights produce 180 grammes of carbon per
passenger/kilometre, while cars produce on average 111g. In contrast,
train emissions per passenger weigh in at just 5.7g.

"We're seeing an increased demand for rail travel from people who are
keen to do their bit to help protect the environment," Amanda Monroe
of European rail ticket provider Rail Europe told the Telegraph.

^^ Well that'll be great for the rest of CA. They should really benefit.

Maybe I am confused.....
 

But I thought this thread was about San Diego Downtown Urban development?

:koko:

exactly, I agree. With the current plan there is not even a guarantee the second phase that includes SD would even happen. They would do Phase I linking LA and SF and then "analyze" the bennefits before doing the second route. At this rate we are looking at 30-50 years before we have something. We need something NOW - the 5 in north county is hideous during any daylight hours.

it is but there's not much news right now with developmetn downtown, might as well keep the thread alive :yinyang::deadthread:

I recently talked to a senior planner at CCDC and the Hotel Indigo is set to begin in October. They are in final plan check right now.

good news!! is it just me, or does it seem like a "hotel boom" is going to replace the condo boom downtown??