Correct, but no one ever claims that Montreal and Quebec are the standard-bearer for things pan-Canadian. Montreal doesn't have Canada's national newspaper, the Canadian National Exhibition, the Canadian National Home Show, Canada's National Boat Show, Canada's sports network, Canada's "team" in various US sports leagues, blablabla...

Being an outlier in this way is part of Montreal and Quebec's ethos.

Toronto is totally different. It deliberately lays claim to the cross-Canada "beacon" or standard-bearer status but remains aloof to a lot of what most people consider iconic Canadiana.

I am not sure the popularity of the Wolfpack proves anything, as it's still something non-Canadian that as others pointed out, appeals to globalist aspirations in the city. (American stuff naturally draws most of the globalist fetish, but other stuff sometimes gets drawn in as well like the World Cup...)

I was in Toronto in my youth when they had Aussie rules football exhibition games in the city one time, and the AFL was considered a lot cool-er than the Argos and the CFL.

A meaningless match between the Geelong Cats and the Collingwood Magpies had more cred on the streets of the city than the Grey Cup that was played within a few weeks (IIRC) at SkyDome.

To Canadians maybe.

Toronto is an interesting place to foreign visitors primarily because it is a big city with lots of "stuff".

Places that are popular with visitors in terms of human culture (as opposed to mountain scenery etc.) are those which tend to be as you say "stereotypically Canadian": Quebec, Newfoundland...

Having smidgens of imported Ghanaian, Tamil and Cambodian culture in a city is cool to a point, but it's never going to equate the real thing in the old countries. If it leads to unique mixes that are Ghanaian-Tamil-Cambodian, then you're talking. And this may indeed come to light in Toronto one day.

But if you just end up with a bunch of people of Ghanaian, Tamil, Cambodian, etc. origin eating hamburgers, watching Jimmy Kimmel and Grey's Anatomy and the Super Bowl, then that won't really be anything special.

I'm scratching my head trying to imagine why anyone would think that it could? Or should? I've never heard it suggested before.

Absolutely, but at the same time people automatically assume Montreal should be given international events (See: World Cup bid) simply because they're the second largest city and the standard-bearer for French Canada when, as history as shown, they don't show up in the numbers that other Canadian cities would put up for similar events. Montreal claims default #2 status in Canada for hosting international events when at times it has no business doing so.

I suppose so, but American sports are very much in their own little bubble. The US dominates Basketball (which is steadily becoming more global), they claim ownership of Baseball (when they're not the best at it, and is slightly global), and they're the only country that plays American Football (which is slowly on the decline). Other sports like soccer and rugby are growing but still aren't anywhere near the larger sports, and further global sports like cricket are nowhere to be seen. I'm of the opinion that Toronto's aspirations are far more global than American, but generally skew towards American because of the MLB/NBA.

The popularity of the Wolfpack could probably be drawn down to some sort of weird Commonwealth ties and being more progressive/interactive/exciting than Canadian football/Argos, or other local sports. The team is dominating and should be promoted up, whether the majority of people going to Lamport for games are aware of that or not.

On that note, Wolfpack drew 7,139 yesterday, bringing their season average up to 6,581 with one regular season home game remaining.

----

FC Edmonton drew 3,438 on Friday against North Carolina FC, dropping their season average down slightly to 3,588.

REDBLACKS and Roughriders had what were essentially sellouts last night, wrapping up a pretty good Week 3 for CFL gates.

Blue Jays continue to draw into the 40Ks in early July despite the sluggish season. 41K, 37K, 46K hosting the Astros so far just before the All Star Break.

Do the Wolfpack really draw that many people? I haven't been following and have no idea what's going on - but I saw a couple shots of the game yesterday and the stands were pretty bare - no way there were 7,000 there. Didn't even look like 2,000. Was the picture probably taken very early in the game before everyone arrived, or are the numbers be fudged?

Maybe....but two or three sellouts in a row and there will be complaints that it was built too small!

Ugh, Acajack. You're reading far too much into marketing which, as you say , wouldn't draw in the crowds in Montreal. A Southern Californian pitch for a resort condo in Humber Bay Shores is appealing in the middle of a Toronto winter however no purchaser is going to believe they can sit on a patio next to Marine Parade Drive with only a light sweater on in February. The lasting impression of "Canadian National" is of a big event/place. It has little to do with Toronto claiming to be Canada's centre of the universe.

I've no actual idea. I'm just going off of what is officially reported. All of the other teams in their league attract between 1K-2K so I would be surprised if it was the league fudging numbers that much. Could be Wolfpack trying to get hype up or they're counting tickets sold instead of tickets entering the stadium.

Bombers haven't strung together consecutive regular season sellouts since IGF opened. They usually only get one or two through the course of a regular season. Averaged 30K the season IGF opened and averaged 25K in 2016.

Three or four game winstreak will bring all the bandwagon jumpers out of the woodwork. Could start as early this fall with the back to back against Sask.

CFL this week

Ham @ Sask
Attendance: 33,050
% Capacity 99.1

Tor @ Ott
Attendance: 24,347
% Capacity 98.7

Cal @ Wpg
Attendance: 30,165
% Capacity 91.3

BC @ Mtl
Attendance: 18,728
% Capacity 79.7

Financial break even point acknowledged to be 18,000 according to CFL super fan Sportsnet's Arash Madani.

When Toronto's novelty of not being the only Canadian city, especially to much smaller cities, to host events..sporting or otherwise (Argos, Junos, Vanier Cup), then Toronto usually abandons that team or that event in droves just because of losing lustre of what was once sacred to only Toronto is now in other Canadian cities that get that event/sport as well.
The single exception is hockey but hockey is ingrained at a young age in Canada & Toronto & it's no exception in Canada, outside of Saskatchewan, that it remains the most popular sport.

The two recent World Juniors hosted by Toronto and Montreal disagree.

well, I think the last World Juniors hosted back to back with Montreal and Toronto again was just too much for the size of the market to bare, Hockey Canada should have waited a decade before having it back in those cities again,
ie. Saskatoon in the 1990s and again in 2010

Huh? It will be news to a lot of people (incl. in the 416) that Toronto doesn't lay claim to being Canada's centre of the universe. (Even if the exact term is not actually used.)

Well, then this is where it gets confusing. If the city isn't "shackled" by Canadiana, and instead is known for having representation from all of the cultures of the world, if all of these representations are mostly subpar pastiches... then what's the city's claim to fame?

Uhh, Montreal does fine hosting international sporting events I'd say.

What's the attendance for F1 Grand Prix weekend? 300,000?

Rogers Cup tennis attendance in Montreal is consistently higher than in Toronto and the stadiums are about the same size.

The Montreal Impact holds the top of couple of rungs for record soccer attendance in Canada.

Yes, Montreal won't draw well for a random women's NT soccer friendly against North Korea, but those game don't draw flies in Toronto either. The only place they same to draw well is Edmonton.

Have I ever mentioned that I think Edmonton is the best sports city in the country?

The most interesting thing about Montreal's consistent support of these two events is that they're annual international events where there is very limited, if any, Canadian representation in the field. People give Toronto a hard time for not backing Canadian events but Montreal will support international events when they won't come out in similar numbers for Canadian events. I'd almost say that Montreal has more of a fetish for globalized events than Toronto.

I don't know...the women's friendly in Winnipeg in June had double the people turn out than the men's friendly in Montreal the same week. Toronto had triple Montreal. :shrug:

Montreal has routinely drawn lower than expectations for a number of FIFA events in Canada. Outside of the 2007 U20s where attendance was quite good they were later outdrawn by Toronto, Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Vancouver (and nearly Ottawa) in the 2014 U20s and 2015 Women's World Cup. It's become pretty obvious that the hierarchy for hosting in Canada, at least in the eyes of CSA, is something like Toronto = Vancouver > Edmonton. If it's a sole friendly event featuring a Canadian National Team Montreal is likely further down the list below a few others.

There are other things you fail to consider but that enter into it. There is a long-standing malaise in Quebec with respect to the Canadian sports system (worse in some sports than others, but often it touches the national team sports) with a perception that there is an ingrained hostility to athletes from Quebec and francophones. Rightly or wrongly (and true or not) this affects interest in and support for these teams here. There may be a few more now but historically there were hardly any members from Quebec (sometimes none) on the national teams in rugby, soccer, and some other sports.

very reminiscent of NHL following in Saskatchewan being lower than every other province in Canada.

.with NMS in Regina hosting La Liga's Valencia vs New York Cosmos in a couple weeks Montreal may fall even further down the Canadian list for soccer.

I agree,
..with Edmonton being the only city in Canada to have a large enough & suitable track & field stadium plus all the other major events for sports used for World University Games & World Track & Field Championships etc. Edmonton is poised to be number 1 city for being next to host a Summer Olympics in Canada if it bids.

as far as bids for sports, Regina seems to be the epicentre for sports in Canada next year in 2018 with the Brier, Memorial Cup, the Skate Canada International this Fall (in highly sought after Winter Olympic season) ..and..
..Plus a World Ladies LPGA golf tournament next year.

http://www.lpga.com/news/2017-wascan...cp-womens-open

not to be left out, Saskatoon held its annual International Houghton-Boston Tennis Classic this last week. Couple years ago, Denis Shapovalov played in the tournament & while the then 16-year-old didn’t win, he did get his first qualifying point in Saskatchewan, which made his Boy’s Singles Final win last year at Wimbledon special for Riverside Tennis club in S'toon.

https://www.saskatoonriverside.com/h...ennis-classic/

Saskatoon also bid for and is hosting Canada's first FIBA 3x3 World Tour stop this next week & showcasing Canada's best 3x3 basketball team from the Paris-of-the-Prairies :tup:

http://globalnews.ca/news/3222259/fi...-to-saskatoon/

Uhh... that's not really where I was going with that.

SK still produces more NHLers per capita than any other province, I am pretty sure.

Well, the Université de Montréal Carabins sell out their stadium with 5,000 fans most every game, and they play in the all-Quebec CIS-RSEQ. They also get excellent media coverage with games televised live and broadcast on the radio, highlights on all of the francophone national TV sportscasts...

How many fans go to Varsity Blues football games? A few hundred?

On another front, we're in the middle of summer blockbuster season and two of the top 10 movies in Montreal and Quebec are home-grown, including the one that's currently in first place. One is Bon Cop Bad Cop and the other is a movie that no one outside Quebec has ever heard of, nor will they ever hear of it.

But sure, Montreal does like international events a lot. But that's not all they're interested in. Homegrown stuff is still very popular. Even if Rita MacNeil and Team Gushue and the Tragically Hip don't count as "local". Plenty of other stuff does.

Something in-between? Like most larger cities these days? Not much for a 'brand' I suppose, but as you said, most people are coming for the 'big city' aspect of it.

London is hardly the 'classic British' city today than it was in the past. New York City isn't the hardscrabble gateway to America that it was prior. More like a gateway for rich immigrants. You don't go to New York to find a slice of Middle America.

My original post related to Toronto being a Canadian city. I still think it is one, with the power of 'internationalization' changing it.

That seems very judgemental and condescending wrt the immigrant experience. I'm not sure where you're going with it. I think it's well recognized that immigrant communities begin to diverge from the "old country" from the moment they arrive in Canada (just as did the old stock communities from France and the UK - are they also "subpar pastiches"?). That's probably less true in an age of easy air travel than it used to be, but it seems inevitable. That, however, in no way makes the "hypenated Canadian culture(s)" any less valid or worthy.

Culture is both a personal and collective thing. Sometimes a distinction needs to be made between the two.

I live in Quebec but am of Acadian and Franco-Ontarian origin with a not-insignificant anglo dimension to my persona, even if I am francophone.

This is me and it's as legitimate a way of being as any other. But that doesn't mean that the Québécois-Acadien-Franco-Ontarien-Gatinois-(anglo-familiar) culture exists out there in the broader context to any significant degree. Nor that it ever will.

Toronto is not devoid of Canadian cultural traits but by far the most striking one is related to what I might call "societal ethos". In that respect, it is most definitely Canadian. Other more traditional ("put-your-finger-on-it") types of cultural cues that tell you the city is part of a bigger thing called Canada are more discreet and in some cases even marginal.

I am pretty familiar with most of the world's megacities and Toronto is much further down this path that even London, New York City, Paris, etc. In all of these cases there is much more of a reciprocal cultural relationship between the metropolis and the heartland/hinterland. New Yorkers may not eat grits or have luaus but they sure as hell have heard of them and probably have some idea of what they are.

In a sense Toronto may be the closest thing there is to a "globalist capital city". Yes, American culture in Toronto takes up a lot of the space that would normally be occupied by domestic culture, but American culture is also a large part of the diet of globalists around the world regardless of nationality.

I'd hardly call the Leafs' coverage discreet. I'm sure most Canadians would agree with me on that point :P

I take your overall meaning though. It's probably a product of Toronto being a fairly new city in the grand scheme of things (no chance to really develop its own history prior to globalization) and the fact that English Canadian culture is very similar to American culture, so it gets somewhat lost in the din.

Didn't Edmonton rip up the track at Commonwealth?

Point taken about the Leafs, though you could almost cal them an exceptional case: they play the most Canadian of sports, but in the "best league in the world" of that particular sport. It's fully consistent with the type of conceit we're talking about.

IIRC a removable covering was placed over the track.

I'm very familiar with New York. It's knowledge and relationship with the US hinterlands is no more or less than Toronto with Canada. I also adore how you put it that Toronto is preoccupied with American culture instead of simply recognizing the significant overlap between Canadian culture (including Quebec) and American. We aren't being American simply by doing things Americans also do. It the subtleties that separate the two cultures and Toronto tends to be quite proud of those things unique to Canadian culture.

Good grief. It's a thread about sports attendance Smh.

Weekend Wrapup:

Edmonton & Ottawa......CFL.....Commonwealth Stadium....July 14.....36,260
Winnipeg & Toronto.......CFL.....IGF Field.........................July 13.....25,085
Hamilton & BC..............CFL.....Tim Hortons Field.............July 15.....24,135
Montreal & Calgary........CFL.....Molson Stadium...............July 14.....18,610
Toronto & Hemel...........RFL3.....Lamport Stadium............July 15.....7,247

Ottawa & Rochester.....................USL.....TD Place.............July 15.....5,525
Edmonton & New York.................NASL.....Clarke Field........July 15.....4,096
Ottawa & Quebec........................CANAM.....GT Stadium.....July 15.....3,192
Ottawa & Sussex County..............CANAM.....GT Stadium.....July 13.....2,292
Trois-Rivieres & Sussex County.....CANAM.....Stade Stereo+.July 14.....1,633

Trois-Rivieres & New Jersey.....CANAM.....Stade Stereo+.....July 13.....1,403
Ottawa & Quebec....................CANAM.....GT Stadium.........July 14.....958

Saturday, July 15, 2017

Hillsboro Hops at Vancouver Canadians - 6413 - Northwest League
Medicine Hat Mavericks at Okotoks Dawgs - 4459 - Western Major Baseball League
Kansas City T-Bones at Winnipeg Goldeyes - 4413 - American Association
Bismarck Larks at Thunder Bay Border Cats - 920 - Northwoods League
Wenatchee AppleSox at Kelowna Falcons - 793 - West Coast League
Moose Jaw Miller Express at Swift Current 57's - 422 - Western Major Baseball League
Melville Millionaires at Weyburn Beavers - 215 - Western Major Baseball League
Edmonton Prospects at Yorkton Cardinals - 200 - Western Major Baseball League

Impressive minor league base-ball attendance in some places.

Sunday"s Honda Indy Toronto was a "seat sellout" and the contract with the organizers has been renewed until 2020.

The CANAM League looks a little bit strange to me. 3 Canadian teams competing against 3 American teams, all of which are located within the New York metropolitan area. That would probably make more sense to me if the American teams were located in smaller markets near the border. This reminds me of the CFL expansion in the US. Do the American even care about this league? For some reason I find it hard to believe that people in New Jersey get excited over a game against Trois-Rivières.

In independent baseball, the opponent does not matter. People only attend the games for the promotions or just a nice evening outside. This is a fact as you can compare any regular season game attendance compared to a playoff game where only the hardcore fans show up.

Just throwing this out for discussion

We all know the issues in Toronto with the CFL and attendance, however in a Wednesday night game in Ottawa it was jam packed with 24,756 fans hanging from the rafters

In MLS last night, NYRB had 17,362, NYCFC had 22,011, LA Galaxy had 17,404 and Montreal 16,660. Granted Toronto, Atlanta, Orlando, Seattle, Portland are strong in attendance, but what gives TFC fans the right to kick the $hit out of the CFL when MLS as a whole is struggling in some pretty big markets

I am a fan of both leagues and want both to succeed and I know as a family person, mid week games are a struggle to get crowds...

But A) lets give Ottawa, Hamilton, Edmonton, Saskatchewan and Winnipeg credit for being in fans and pushing the CFL average attendance up.

And B) TFC fans, yes you have done a great job supporting your team, but it does not give you the right to think MLS is so superior to CFL, when MLS has tons of tons of its own issues.
Its not so much on this forum, but on twitter, the TFC trolls are mind numbing!!

For some reason the amount of Facebook status updates from people in my "friends" who were at the Redblacks-Alouettes game last night was insane.

I was at the RB-Als game last night. I thought it would be a sparse crowd due to the mid-week but the atmosphere was great with the full house. While the stands may look rather empty, the amount of fans who pack the social areas show where everyone is. I've been sitting in my seats for the first half then I'll go for a drink and end up watching the rest of the game from the corner stairwells (I usually will gravitate from one end zone to the other depending on the flow of play). I'm not alone in this way of watching the game.

I've been to a few Redblacks games but I've never tried to do that. So they don't harrass you and tell you to go back to your seat?

There is a lot of fun to be had at CFL games that tons of sports fans in a number of the league's cities are missing out on. (Or maybe their teams aren't doing enough to make it fun?)

Anyway, it's not hokey hayseed fun either. In case someone was going to go there.

Not at all. I've never had a security person come up and tell me to get back to my seat anywhere in the stadium.

The revamped TD Place allows fans to watch games from many public areas around the stadium. Empty seats mean nothing as you can see hundreds (or more) socializing in both end zones and no doubt in the lower concessions area of the south side stadium, which also overlooks the field.

What is amazing is that a small hill exists in the east end zone that is just outside the stadium where you typically see a few hundred fans who have not paid. I think for PR reasons, the RedBlacks have not blocked access to that hill.

The whole idea of creating a fun atmosphere has been a big success at TD Place.

With more than 17,000 season ticket holders, it is not hard to sell out every game.

OSEG and the RedBlacks has been great at introducing a whole new generation to the CFL. You can see it in the crowd. Every generation is represented. Amazing for a city that has had awful football or no football at all between 1980 and 2014. A lot has gone very well for the RedBlacks with the team and with the design of the stadium and the surrounding area and even with the transportation plan. The surrounding area is designed to allow lots of people to have a good time before and after games. Even the refereeing controversies that have been common at TD Place help by building up crowd interest, even if calls have often gone against the RedBlacks.

You're cherry-picking MLS attendances from one weeknight. All of those attendances are below season average for those teams.

There's an ongoing Gold Cup CONCACAF going on in the states as well as large-scale European club friendlies also going on. The priority right now is being taken up by Gold Cup. Montreal has no real excuse, although they do have another home match this week (on Saturday).

If anything, Ottawa and Hamilton are the average. Saskatchewan, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Calgary bring it up. BC, Toronto, Montreal bring it down.

In saying that, last night's Ti-Cats game was 23,531. I believe it's technically the lowest attendance at the new Tim Hortons field but i'm probably splitting hairs. 80 less than the previous low. Still, it's near capacity so there's nothing really wrong with this for a Thursday.

The 16,660 for the Impact on Wednesday was the lowest of the season and lowest since the penultimate home match last season. Brings their average down to just above 20K.

As stated, REDBLACKS crowd on Wednesday was very good.

Lions play tonight, tomorrow features three MLS and one CFL, and then the Argos get the pleasure of playing at home on a Monday night. Off week for USL/NASL, Jays are still on a road swing, Wolfpack don't play at home again until mid-August.

You mean like you do with the CFL? For a guy who wants to talk about attendance so much you're pretty quiet when the CFL does well and posts like crazy when it doesn't. When's the next Argo home game (Monday?) so we can prepare for your next post.

Generally i'm posting about CFL trending and averages. Is there something wrong with my posts or do you just take issue with the subject?

I would talk more about the CFL's attendance doing well if it was doing well...outside of some occasional sellouts and strong matches its trends have been going down for the better part of a decade now. Show some bright points and we'll talk about them. I guess you skipped over my line supporting Ottawa's strong attendance on a Wednesday. :shrug:

jhikka, you didn't have much to say about this post.

How about doing us a favour and mensching up about why you want to kill the CFL. It's not going to affect MLS attendance in any way shape or form so why fear it? Do you really think people are so stupid they can't recognize your constant insidiously negative CFL posts and shots. Why the fear?