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Coldrsx Nov 9, 2021 4:28 PM
Interesting experience doing MEX-DFW-YYC yesterday.

Much paperwork leaving MEX but very simple customs when we landed at DFW... literally 30 seconds, no questions, no proof asked for, no questions.

YYC many questions and while I had my CANPASS ready, not requested but I did need to 'show a QR' code as I passed someone en route to the customs official.

Lots of process but fairly painless on travel day.

thenoflyzone Nov 9, 2021 10:33 PM
Airbus press release for today's flight.

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/p...skies-can-save

Quote:
Toulouse/Montreal, 09 November 2021 – Airbus has performed the first long-haul demonstration of formation flight in general air traffic (GAT) regulated transatlantic airspace with two A350 aircraft flying at three kilometers apart from Toulouse, France to Montreal, Canada. The aircraft were greeted at Montreal-Trudeau International Airport. Over 6 tons of CO2 emissions were saved on the trip, confirming the potential for more than a 5% fuel saving on long-haul flights.

The “final demonstration” test flight took place on 9 November 2021 involving two A350 test aircraft, MSN1 and MSN59, the former as the leader aircraft and the latter as the follower. This was made possible with flight control systems developed by Airbus which position the follower aircraft safely in the wake updraft of the leader aircraft allowing it to reduce engine thrust and reduce fuel consumption. A similar principle can be observed with large migrating birds such as geese, which fly together in a distinct V-shaped formation.

Sabine Klauke, Chief Technical Officer at Airbus declared: “This demonstration flight is a concrete example of our commitment to making our decarbonisation roadmap a reality. It also speaks to how collaboration across the industry will be key to making this happen. We have received a strong level of support for this project from our airline and air traffic partners, plus regulators. The opportunity to get this deployed for passenger aircraft around the middle of this decade is very promising. Imagine the potential if fello’fly was deployed across the industry!”

Pilots from Airbus partner airlines SAS Scandinavian Airlines and Frenchbee witnessed the transatlantic flight onboard as observers. The flight was made possible by Airbus and its air traffic management partners and navigation service providers (DSNA, NATS, NAV CANADA, Eurocontrol and IAA), with the support of the DGAC, who together proved that wake energy retrieval flight technology leveraged in a fello’fly flight can be achieved without compromising safety. The demonstration also shows how fello’fly operations could significantly boost environmental performance of commercial aircraft and contribute to the aviation industry’s decarbonisation targets in the immediate term.

The next step is to get the support of the authorities so that this new operational concept can be certified, and ultimately enable airlines to reduce their fuel burn and CO2 emissions.

The Airbus pioneering fello’fly flight was welcomed upon its arrival in Montreal by the Council President and Secretary General of the UN aviation agency, ICAO. Council President Salvatore Sciacchitano said the demonstration represented “an inspiring example of the level of current commitment to reduce aviation emissions,” while ICAO Secretary General Juan Carlos Salazar remarked on how it reflected “the incredible diversity of air transport innovations now being realized to meet the sector’s targets and ensure flying becomes more and more sustainable.”

Launched in 2019, fello’fly is a flight demonstrator project hosted within Airbus UpNext using biomimicry (the design and production of materials, structures and systems inspired by nature). Airbus UpNext is a wholly-owned Airbus subsidiary and part of the Airbus innovation ecosystem, created to give future technologies a development fast-track by building demonstrators at speed and scale, in order to evaluate, mature and validate potential new products and services that encompass radical technological breakthroughs.

Dominion301 Nov 10, 2021 12:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9445825)
Airbus is conducting a fello'fly test today from TLS to YUL with 2 A350s.

Airbus 1 (AIB1), an A350-900, and Airbus 2 (AIB2), an A350-1000, are the planes in question. The planes are airborne and have an ETA of around 9h40 am local.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/aib1
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/aib2

The planes will fly in formation, at very close proximity. It is expected to produce a fuel savings of between 5-10% per trip for the trailing plane. The planes will head back to TLS tomorrow.

Official Airbus site explaining it all.

https://www.airbus.com/en/innovation...micry/fellofly
Wow that's awesome. Were you involved with the YUL arrivals?

One logistical thing to work out is achieving the balance between who leads and who follows (assuming two different airlines) so that one airline doesn't benefit substantially more than another.

Dominion301 Nov 10, 2021 12:34 AM
UA have no timeline for a return to service at YWG: https://winnipegsun.com/news/news-ne...r-now-at-least

Pre-pandemic UA flew YWG-DEN & YWG-ORD.

thenoflyzone Nov 10, 2021 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9446731)
Wow that's awesome. Were you involved with the YUL arrivals?

One logistical thing to work out is achieving the balance between who leads and who follows (assuming two different airlines) so that one airline doesn't benefit substantially more than another.
No I was off this morning. However, I can confirm the landing and takeoff are pretty uneventful. The planes left their formation northeast of YQB, before descending into Montreal. Separation standards are the same as for other aircraft during arrival and departure. They can't land and depart in formation.

Indeed, there will be challenges implementing this, especially between 2 different carriers. There will need to be cooperation. Some give and take.

This being said however, this startegy will most likely be deployed within a carrier, throughout its fleet. That makes more sense. Even then, there will be challenges. Are insurance companies going to hop on board, or will they increase their fees with carriers willing to embark on this fuel savings strategy? Having 2 aircraft 1.5 nm (3 km) apart at the same altitude over the Atlantic, in the middle of the night, increases the risks somewhat.

In my opinion, this is mostly a marketing tactic by Airbus. Let's see if airlines will follow suit and implement this in the coming years. I have my doubts.

thewave46 Nov 10, 2021 1:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9446750)
No I was off this morning. However, I can confirm the landing and takeoff are pretty uneventful. The planes left their formation northeast of YQB, before descending into Montreal. Separation standards are the same as for other aircraft during arrival and departure. They can't land and depart in formation.

Indeed, there will be challenges implementing this, especially between 2 different carriers. There will need to be cooperation. Some give and take.

This being said however, this startegy will most likely be deployed within a carrier, throughout its fleet. That makes more sense. Even then, there will be challenges. Are insurance companies going to hop on board, or will they increase their fees with carriers willing to embark on this fuel savings strategy? Having 2 aircraft 1.5 nm (3 km) apart at the same altitude over the Atlantic, in the middle of the night, increases the risks somewhat.

In my opinion, this is mostly a marketing tactic by Airbus. Let's see if airlines will follow suit and implement this in the coming years. I have my doubts.
It definitely is a level of coordination that is hard to envision, even within an airline.

You need a number of long-haul flights to coordinate without any logistical problems when dealing with unpredictable passengers and operations. Maybe if it's a series of long-haul flights all headed to a certain destination at the same time - Air Canada's Australia/NZ flights out of Vancouver are bunched all together, or a bunch of AC European destinations leaving Pearson in the European red-eye window.

With TCAS the risk of collision is mitigated, admittedly.

Dominion301 Nov 10, 2021 1:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9446750)
No I was off this morning. However, I can confirm the landing and takeoff are pretty uneventful. The planes left their formation northeast of YQB, before descending into Montreal. Separation standards are the same as for other aircraft during arrival and departure. They can't land and depart in formation.

Indeed, there will be challenges implementing this, especially between 2 different carriers. There will need to be cooperation. Some give and take.

This being said however, this startegy will most likely be deployed within a carrier, throughout its fleet. That makes more sense. Even then, there will be challenges. Are insurance companies going to hop on board, or will they increase their fees with carriers willing to embark on this fuel savings strategy? Having 2 aircraft 1.5 nm (3 km) apart at the same altitude over the Atlantic, in the middle of the night, increases the risks somewhat.

In my opinion, this is mostly a marketing tactic by Airbus. Let's see if airlines will follow suit and implement this in the coming years. I have my doubts.
Yeah I was just wondering if they lined them up on the parallels for a simultaneous landing? BA & VS did that yesterday on takeoff at LHR to celebrate the return of being able to visit the USA. Definitely wouldn't want two A350s landing in a V formation on the same runway. :D

As for the separation, according to the Airbus video, the aircraft will still maintain the standard 1,000 feet vertical separation and still reap the benefits. So in that regard, on the same heading and 1.5 nm separation, it's pretty safe.

thenoflyzone Nov 10, 2021 1:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9446768)

As for the separation, according to the Airbus video, the aircraft will still maintain the standard 1,000 feet vertical separation and still reap the benefits. So in that regard, on the same heading and 1.5 nm separation, it's pretty safe.
No. In the video, they mention that both planes are 1000 ft apart, until a point where they (the 2 aircraft) takeover separation responsibility from ATC. They then move to the same altitude. 1.5 nm apart.

That was the case with the 2 Airbus flights today. AIB1 entered the ocean at FL380. AIB2 was 1000ft below, at FL370, until they hit the first Atlantic waypoint. After that, it climbed to FL380 as well, 1.5 nm behind the other aircraft. Both of the planes crossed the Atlantic at FL380 and then at FL400. They were at the same altitude until east of YQB, where they separated, ATC resumed separation between them and then they descended into YUL.

Maintaining 1,000ft separation won't give you any fuel savings. Wake turbulence dissipates 1,000 ft below an aircraft. Hence why that separation standard is safe for use. Notice how the Airbus video doesn't mention that both planes will fly a the same altitude. There is a risk involved there. Undeniable. You need to maintain a V formation for it to be safe. You can't be immediately behind the leading aircraft. Imagine you're crossing the Atlantic. It's the middle of the night. You're in the trailing aircraft. A young relief pilot (20 odd years old) is sitting in the cockpit, watching over things, While the Captain is taking a nap in the crew rest area. And then the plane starts to drift immediately behind the leading aircraft, at the same altitude, at 1.5 nm separation. I wouldn't want to be in that second plane !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9446768)
Yeah I was just wondering if they lined them up on the parallels for a simultaneous landing?
No can do. 06L/24R is closed for most of the day. The asphalt is in bad shape. ADM limits its use. It opens only for the evening arrivals rush, from 4pm to 8 pm. That's it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thewave46 (Post 9446767)

With TCAS the risk of collision is mitigated, admittedly.
That's another thing. TCAS will light up like a Christmas tree at 1.5 nm separation, at the same altitude. TCAS will probably need to be turned off for this procedure. One more thing insurance companies wont like.

Dominion301 Nov 10, 2021 4:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone (Post 9446787)
No. In the video, they mention that both planes are 1000 ft apart, until a point where they (the 2 aircraft) takeover separation responsibility from ATC. They then move to the same altitude. 1.5 nm apart.

That was the case with the 2 Airbus flights today. AIB1 entered the ocean at FL380. AIB2 was 1000ft below, at FL370, until they hit the first Atlantic waypoint. After that, it climbed to FL380 as well, 1.5 nm behind the other aircraft. Both of the planes crossed the Atlantic at FL380 and then at FL400. They were at the same altitude until east of YQB, where they separated, ATC resumed separation between them and then they descended into YUL.

Maintaining 1,000ft separation won't give you any fuel savings. Wake turbulence dissipates 1,000 ft below an aircraft. Hence why that separation standard is safe for use. Notice how the Airbus video doesn't mention that both planes will fly a the same altitude. There is a risk involved there. Undeniable. You need to maintain a V formation for it to be safe. You can't be immediately behind the leading aircraft. Imagine you're crossing the Atlantic. It's the middle of the night. You're in the trailing aircraft. A young relief pilot (20 odd years old) is sitting in the cockpit, watching over things, While the Captain is taking a nap in the crew rest area. And then the plane starts to drift immediately behind the leading aircraft, at the same altitude, at 1.5 nm separation. I wouldn't want to be in that second plane !



No can do. 06L/24R is closed for most of the day. The asphalt is in bad shape. ADM limits its use. It opens only for the evening arrivals rush, from 4pm to 8 pm. That's it.



That's another thing. TCAS will light up like a Christmas tree at 1.5 nm separation, at the same altitude. TCAS will probably need to be turned off for this procedure. One more thing insurance companies wont like.
Thanks thenoflyzone for all the explanations. I misread that in the video. :)

Did YUL put the runway rehab on hold due to COVID? Seems like it would have been the golden opportunity to do so, despite the financial challenges.

thenoflyzone Nov 10, 2021 1:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominion301 (Post 9446891)
Thanks thenoflyzone for all the explanations. I misread that in the video. :)

Did YUL put the runway rehab on hold due to COVID? Seems like it would have been the golden opportunity to do so, despite the financial challenges.
Yes, resurfacing 24R is on hold. Both thresholds were resurfaced before the pandemic. Only the middle section is left.

I agree that resurfacing the runway when the pandemic hit would have been the best use of idle time, but cash is king, and ADM didn’t have anymore to spare. Don’t forget, the REM project is still ongoing.

Dominion301 Nov 11, 2021 2:19 AM
YYZ Q3 results and YTD results: https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...869231167.html

Quote:
Passenger activity increased 190.0 per cent for the third quarter of 2021 and decreased 41.8 per cent during the first nine months of 2021 as compared to the same periods of 2020, respectively.
Sector / Q3 2021 Q3 2020 Change # Change % / YTD 2021 YTD 2020 Change # Change %
Domestic........2.9M 1.1M +1.8M +165.3% / 4.1M 4.6M -0.5M -10.7%
International...1.8M 0.6M +1.2M +239.4% / 2.7M 7.2M -4.5M -61.8%
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total..............4.7M 1.7M +3.0M +190.0% / 6.8M 11.8M -5.0M -41.8%

SpongeG Nov 11, 2021 8:18 AM
Vancouver International Airport begins using new terminal building expansion

Dailyhive
Kenneth Chan | Nov 9 2021

Quote:
Sustaining a recovery trend that first began in early September 2021, the spokesperson added that YVR is still averaging 28,000 to 30,000 passengers daily, which amounts to a significant rebound from earlier this year and the pandemic low of only 69,000 passengers for the entire month of April 2020. YVR expects passenger volumes will pick up in late November and throughout December as the holiday travel season gets underway.
https://images.dailyhive.com/2021021...erminal-16.jpg

you can pop out for some fresh air
https://images.dailyhive.com/2021021...erminal-21.jpg

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vanc...ding-expansion

• Video Link

casper Nov 11, 2021 6:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpongeG (Post 9448090)
Vancouver International Airport begins using new terminal building expansion

Dailyhive
Kenneth Chan | Nov 9 2021



https://images.dailyhive.com/2021021...erminal-16.jpg

you can pop out for some fresh air
https://images.dailyhive.com/2021021...erminal-21.jpg

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vanc...ding-expansion

• Video Link
YVR consistently has focused on creating a fantastic travelers experience. Far better than anything anywhere else.

esquire Nov 11, 2021 6:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by casper (Post 9448415)
YVR consistently has focused on creating a fantastic travelers experience. Far better than anything anywhere else.
Best airport in Canada by a longshot.

Alexcaban Nov 11, 2021 9:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire (Post 9448435)
Best airport in Canada by a longshot.
Yeah cause everyone loves that teal carpet....

casper Nov 11, 2021 10:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexcaban (Post 9448628)
Yeah cause everyone loves that teal carpet....
Agreed. Teal is a compromise colour between those that want green and blue. It captures the positives of both leaving behind the negatives. It is an uplifting colour that says sky, forest, and ocean. It is the colour of the pacific north west and BC.

Everyone loves teal.

esquire Nov 11, 2021 10:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexcaban (Post 9448628)
Yeah cause everyone loves that teal carpet....
It works for them!

isotack Nov 11, 2021 11:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexcaban (Post 9448628)
Yeah cause everyone loves that teal carpet....
Not when you are attempting to roll a bag on it. As for "the best"...I don't have an opinion on which one is the best, but YVR isn't. IMO.

samuelx88 Nov 11, 2021 11:24 PM
Air Transat will stop their weekly YQB-YVR flight next summer. But since they announced YQB-LGW instead, it's less of a big loss.

This comes almost right after Air Canada announced their 3x weekly YQB-YVR flight.

Also, Air Canada updated their schedule and YQB-FLL and YQB-CUN are now year-round.

esquire Nov 12, 2021 2:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by isotack (Post 9448714)
Not when you are attempting to roll a bag on it. As for "the best"...I don't have an opinion on which one is the best, but YVR isn't. IMO.
Well, who's better?

Calgary? No.
Edmonton? No.
Ottawa? No.
Toronto? No.
Halifax? No.
Montreal? No.
Winnipeg? No.

Who am I missing?

I'm hard pressed to even think of a clear contender for second place. YVR is the perfect combination of big airport amenities with smaller airport convenience. It's well connected to the rest of the city and not too far out of the way. As a passenger I always enjoy passing through.


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