The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread
 

The need has become apparent for a thread to discuss how many people are attending sports events in this country.

Let's talk! :tup:

Thanks for making this. I'll repost my original post from the CFL thread:

Calgary's season averages have been as follows:
2008: 32,523
2009: 36,502
2010: 30,715
2011: 30,539
2012: 28,665
2013: 29,263
2014: 29,559
2015: 30,154
2016: 27,474

It mimics a general trend across the league of declining gate figures. Obviously some teams have built newer, smaller stadiums (Hamilton, Winnipeg, Saskatchewan) but others (Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Toronto, and a lesser extent Montreal) have declining gate figures in stable venues. Vancouver is the most jarring, going from a 34K average in 2008 to 21K in 2016. Edmonton's high 30Ks have declined to low 30Ks.

The Jays are currently 6th in the MLB averaging 38,907 fans per game and just 130 back of 4th, which is the Yankees.

Just goes to show like back in the 90s that Toronto can average with the big boys if the team is decent.

I would like to see how any market would do after 20+ years out of the playoffs like Jays fans suffered through.

Argos
 

If possible, it looks like the crowd at the game tonight is even smaller than the opening game crowd (13.5k). Of course this is just based on random camera shots at this point.

The crowd at BMO tonight looks less than what they would have at Rogers Centre.
The one thing I've noticed over the last few years here in Winnipeg. Less families attending,most likely due to overpriced tickets/concession/parking . 20 years ago, decent seats could be had for $ 18- adult, $ 12 - student. comparable ticket would now be over $ 50. Add in the high concession prices, and you have parents either going to less games as a family or leav ing the kids at home. Which can't be a positive thing for a "gate driven " league.

Miller and the Bombers have done something to address the expensive tickets in Winnipeg with reduced concession prices and discounted season tickets for people with children in the family endzone and the corner upper deck. A family of 4 can now attend 11 games (counting a home playoff game) for a total of $726. That's $66 per game for an entire family.

Argos celebrating Canada's 150th birthday with 150 people in attendance tonight at BMO Field.

Argos
 

Official attendance is 11,219 at BMO field.

I got word it was ~9,000 gates tonight from an MLSE source.

There were rumours it would be 4,000 tonight, but nobody wanted to believe it was true.

I said from day one of this move to BMO that the new ownership group was gambling with all its chips on the table. They had no choice to move but Rogers Centre, for all its flaws, was still much easier to get to for the majority of its suburban fans. BMO Field is never easy to get to unless you are taking the GO Train into Exhibition Stadium.

At this point, my bet still stands that the Toronto Wolfpack Rugby will beat the Argos in attendance for a game this year. Adam Lamport Stadium holds max. 9K people so this is not hard to achieve.

To me, it is just getting pathetic. This market won't learn anything until the Argos go away for a while. The city has become apathetic towards them; nobody gives a fuck about them aside from maybe 50K people.

OSMO and the Argos
 

Wow! You really changed your tune from last week!

osmo
Registered User

A far better start than last year...
Small crowd but everyone there was invested and into it 100%. We had a booth again this game and have started a deal to be there half the season. This crowd was smaller but WAY more intense. You had no part-time fans there and it was all CFL diehards. I watched all the 4th quarter and crowd was rocking. I don't think the Argos will peak above this gate (16K), but it is much better to have all the fsns there fully invested versus a bunch of passive types on their phone the whole game which was common last year (I suspect less freebies are out this year).

I admit I had s good time. I miss football and sun on my face so you might even catch me at a game this year.

Is there some kind of family pricing for a single game though? We would take the grand daughters to a couple games if there was .

I go to one Al's game every year - I feel it's my duty to do so and it's fun!

I go to 5-6 Impact games every year - reasonable prices - much fun!

I go to no Habs games every year (unless I get free tickets) - I have better things to do than to spend 9 million dollars on tickets, hotdogs, beers - even though it's tons of fun!

The Jays attendance only surged in 2015 when the team was in a playoff race and in the 1.5 years since (including last year's playoff race/run)

Prior to that, they were a middle-of-the-pack team in terms of attendance.

These are the attendance stats as of Jul 1, 2015, just before the Jays went on their playoff push. At the time, they were 42-38, in a tie for 3rd place, just 1GB first place Baltimore.

https://i2.wp.com/3rdlinegrind.com/w...team.png?w=458
http://3rdlinegrind.com/2015/07/01/m...ort-june-2015/

Kansas City, which had a nearly equally long period of futility, saw a major attendance spike that year as they (finally) had a good team.

The Jays are doing better at the gate because they have been doing better on the field. Simple.

Yes as I said if they have a decent team they can draw as good as any market in the league.

My point simply was that any franchise in the league, whether it be the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, anyone would struggle to draw decent crowds if their team went on a 20 year streak out of the playoffs or even contending for a playoff spot.

The Argos won the Grey Cup and the next year their attendance got worse. And their attendance numbers were rigged back then - they were getting around 15k a game at the Skydome.

Winning isn't the issue... the stadium isn't the issue... it's the product. Toronto isn't interested in the CFL. It's pretty simple. Remember, they were giving away free tickets to the Grey Cup last year.

And it's not just Toronto... BC and Montreal aren't doing much better in attendance either. Hell, BC had the 2nd best record in the league - and their attendance continues to fall. Calgary is slipping as well.

Should the CFL be worried about attendance?

Will the citizens of those cities be happy if the CFL dies? Will they care?

For the most part, they won't be happy or sad... they just won't care. At least that's the feeling in Toronto... and from what I've heard Vancouver may be in a similar situation.

The biggest problems is the fan base is getting older faster than the CFL can replace them with younger fans. The next TV contract will be interesting as the key demographic for advertisers is already small and will probably continue to get smaller - making the contract worth less.

I can't see it being any larger, I would think advertising in print media is pretty much a dead horse and advertising on video media will be going that way what with people able to record programs on DVR's and then skip through commercials while watching their recorded program at their convenience.

As for Calgary's recent low attendance this past Thursday, I do suspect a good number of potential seat warmers were already headed to the mountains or elsewhere to do a bit of camping for the long weekend - traffic was considerably lighter during Thirsday's PM rush and Friday's AM rush was almost non-existent. Case in point, a good 25% of the people at my current job site were gone for the long weekend by noon on Thursday and I would say it was easily less than half of the regulars there on Friday to work.

I actually think DVR's are driving up the value of live sports broadcasting as most people like to watch sporting events, commercials and all, as they happen and it's always going to be that way. They are somewhat immune to the DVR. Very few people will record a sporting event and watch it later although yes it does happen.

The CFL is going to have to address this attendance issue

Yea, I think that's accurate.

Personally, I hate the idea of watching a game and "cheering" for something that's already happened.

With the Whitecaps providing a way better atmosphere that attracts younger fans is imo a big part of the reason for the Lions alarming attendance figures. Add to that more people from BC travel to Seattle to see the Blue Jays than to see a Lions home game. Then there's the Seahawks. The CFL is taking a back seat to too many other teams. If the Lions start to see crowds in the 15 000 range, imo the CFL is done. I pray the NFL will have interest in Canada, despite the minor stadium issues.

I don't think it's any coincidence that in the three markets they share the MLS has surpassed CFL numbers and the CFL numbers have dropped. Montreal is the only market where, under the shared CFL-MLS model, the CFL is maintaining steady attendance. I'm not sure what the impact of the CPL will be moving forward on both CFL and MLS figures. We'll see how the franchise locations shake out.

Whitecaps sold out last night for a midweek game, as well.

Hell, the Yankees have been having issues with attendance ever since they opened New Yankee Stadium, and they're not far removed from dominating the league for years. Went to a game there last year against the Jays and half the stadium was empty.

11K is Toronto Rock @ ACC territory.

It's interesting how Toronto has been shaking out this year:

35K+: Jays
25K-to-30K: TFC
18K-to-21K: Raptors, Leafs
10K-15K?: Argos
7K-10K: Rock
5K-7K: Wolfpack

Eventually the Jays attendance will drop down to high 20s/low 30s like they were previously but there's room for growth at the bottom for Argos, Rock, and Wolfpack. It's likely that the Wolfpack will be getting larger crowds at Lamport than Argos at TFC soon, and if the Wolfpack win their league this year like they're looking destined to they'll be in 2nd division Rugby next year.

The CFL is really struggling with the younger audience and appealing to the increasingly diverse demographic groups in Canada. Gridiron football is largely a North American phenomenon.

MLS on the other hand, is doing quite well on that front. Perhaps that's just the worldwide appeal of soccer finally arriving here as Canada's demographics change.

Demographics play a big role in the shifts against the CFL. The major cities with more diverse populations are more into soccer and for local youth, the CFL did a disservice with its old silly blackout rules which kept a whole generation of youth from being able to watch local CFL games on TV. In the major markers like BC and Toronto the stadiums were never going to be full aside from playoff games and thus you would go a whole season with very little TV presence from local CFL teams.

MLS meanwhile has provided a venue where folks can experience a realistic soccer experience with the horns, flags, beer, and chants. Evreyone knows MLS is second tier soccer but it's the closest you'll get to the real deal and they still being over quality (maybe past thier prime) players. They also do a good job running promotional tours that bring over top flight teams for North American tours and exhibition games.

The CFL just needs to accept it's reality of a gate and TV league and work to maximize both. A team in KW playing in a modest but nice 17k stadium would do well and would add more content to boost TV numbers for example. Forget about dog town Toronto, which can't be saved. CFL should be shoring up it's business model so that smaller markets can join the league. Big cities in Vaughn, Mississauga, etc that would benefit in having a Pro team with the cities name on it as means to step out of Toronto's shadows. There is enough of a corporate base in every GTA city where they could easily sustain themselves with a modest but nice facility.

CFL brass let's me down, example, why didn't the hold TSN to the fire to have a back to back games on Canada day? The whole sports landscape to yourself on Canada's 150th, no better way to boost and promote the game. The Sask Wpg game would of sold out on a random Tuesday night in September. Such low hanging fruit that the league and TSN grabbed at versus going hard for a truly once in a generation type event.

Even then, playoff games aren't guaranteed sellouts or gate drivers.

This is pretty rapidly changing in the MLS, though. It's quickly getting better in quality and getting modestly better players. Giovinco wasn't past his prime when he joined and he still isn't anywhere near ancient. Neither are any of the American NT players, or even some of the more talented imports (Schweinsteiger, etc.).

MLS is going to continue playing second-fiddle to the Mexican league for the forseeable future (in terms of CONCACAF leagues) but the time will come when an MLS teams qualifies for the Club World Cup or compete more strongly internationally. It's a slow progression and changes like that usually take a generation or two.

The most important thing to remember about this is that the CPL is likely going to beat the CFL in getting to markets like London, KW, Kingston...they've already beaten the CFL to Halifax and they've only confirmed three teams thus far. Because we've seen what's happened in the MLS/CFL shared markets i'm interested if something similar happens in the CPL/CFL markets as well. At least in terms of gate time will tell. Edmonton FC are on pace for a record year for their gate figures as the Eskimos continue to decline with theirs. :shrug:

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Attendance for Week 3 in Montreal for Alouettes tonight was 18,728. First time an attendance for an Als game has dropped below 19K since 1999. It's not the end of the world but this is a team that has consistently been 20K+ for every game for nearly 20 years.

The blackout issue was resolved around 20 years ago I think. But its legacy lives on today because the dads of the kids today are the CFL's lost generation - they're not passing on an interest in the game to their kids because they never got hooked.

Must be a language thing

Bandage is back!

I guess Montrealers (and Vancouverites) are wanna-Americans. At least that's what I keep hearing is the reason for low attendance (once the stadium can no longer be used as an excuse).

Didn't Montreal get 15k for a playoff game only a few years ago?

Indeed - first post on the forums and it's a backhand slap in the face. It sound like it's going to be a quick banning for Mr. Incognito.......

Except for a very small number of people the answer is NO. At least in Toronto. You never see anybody walking around town in an Argo's hat, or shirt. It's all Baseball, Hockey, NBA, and MLS supporters you see walking around town.

T.O teams attendance rankings for their last seasons.
Blue Jays #3 out of 30 - Total for regular season 3,392,099
Maple Leafs #5 out of 30 - Total for regular season 809,519
Raptors #3 out of 30 - Total for regular season 813,050
TFC #4 out of 22 - Total for regular season 451,917
Argos #8 out of 9 - Total for regular season 381,181

It should be noted that the attendance records for the Argo's show that approx 2 3rds of the tickets sold were to visiting fans not supporting the home team.

LOL, I always love it when that's what people say about Toronto for the lack of CFL interest. It has nothing to do with it. It's a 9 team league, competing in a place with more exciting options with much larger and more competitive leagues. If the Argo's moved to London it would probably be a huge success but the CFL isn't ready to admit defeat in it's largest market.

How do you know this unless you ask people when buying which team they are supporting? I've bought hundreds of sporting event tickets in my life, and I've never once been asked this kind of question.

There is more to it than that. Toronto has a demonstrated low level of interest for made in Canada stuff and it's not just about the CFL. They started moving the Juno Awards around the country (when they were previously always in Toronto) due to waning interest in them in the GTA. There is a reason why they never hold the Brier in Toronto and that the CHL hesitated a lot before finally putting the Memorial Cup in the GTA (Mississauga). Even then it was a big challenge selling tickets and drumming up interest. The same goes for the Vanier Cup university football championship.

Montreal may not be super-hot for the Alouettes and the CFL right now, but there is generally a high level of interest for Québécois-specific stuff in the city and metro area. I wouldn't call them a bunch of American wannabes just because they're not interested in Rita MacNeil, Stompin Tom and Men with Brooms.

Sorry the sites info was a little confusing I got the numbers from. In fact it makes the numbers even sadder for the Argos. https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/toronto-...tendance/2016/


I should have just said :

Argos #8 out of 9 - Total for regular season 147,423

What a load of crap. They started rotating the Juno's out of demand from other parts of the country and also increase overall viewership. The Juno's TV ranking were slipping nation wide. Toronto has huge support for it's team and is proud of those franchises historic Canadian roots. Not liking the CFL does not mean we don't support Canadian stuff.

FYI the very first Brier was held in Toronto. While it hasn't been back in many years it also hasn't returned to Montreal in 40 years now. the Junos starting rotating out of Toronto since 1991 and have been back to the big smoke 5 times since then. Each year we play host to Canada's largest pro tennis event where the fan base has grown along with Canadian talent.


What a fucking load of crap that comment was.

No one seriously claims that Montreal is the "centre" of most anything pan-Canadian these days anyway.

It is what it is.

Not even the remotest chance of either city springing for such a stadium.

I'm calling bullshit on this

I'm going to have to disagree.

Toronto simply has a lot more entertainment options, so in order to compete with those options - you better have something that demands their attention. It has nothing to do with them resisting the product because it's Canadian - it's because the product is sub-par to them. It would be like accusing all of Canada for not buying Blackberry's any more because it's Canadian - when it's simply because the product is 3rd or 4th rate behind the competition.

To most in Toronto, hockey is a Canadian product (and we know hockey is only a blip on the radar in the US) - yet the Leafs have the most dedicated fan support in the whole NHL.

Toronto sold out all 3 shows for the Tragically Hip final tour last year. They're pretty damn Canadian.

It's all about the product - not where the product came from.

That's why we're seeing the same thing in the other bigger Canadian markets. BC and Montreal aren't far off from Toronto. Not a coincidence that those 3 markets represent the top 3 for entertainment options in Canada.

I think Toronto is very much concerned with doing things that are, for lack of a better word, "cool" or that fall within the current trend zeitgeist. Being at a Hip concert is cool. Getting a Snapchat picture at a Raptors game or Jays game is "cool". Not sure that same level of excitement exists for the Argos. Especially for younger people who won't pay for anything unless it means they can show it off online and gain some cred points.

"Cool" as the new "world class"?

What's your point? Everyone here is fully aware an entire generation spreading around the globe is obsessed with cool stuff and, in Toronto, that doesn't include the Argos. (and football in general)

With all this talk about Toronto wanting to be American can someone explain how a first-year team like the Wolfpack are pulling 6K-8K in a rugby league where all their opponents draw under 2K in the UK/France?

Perhaps! I only really track regular season numbers for the most part.

Montreal, and to a greater extent Quebec, is pretty lukewarm to most anything Canadian. When The Tragically Hip were playing their last ever show on CBC the reaction was hardly a blip on the radar in QC whereas it was given live viewings and showings across the RoC. This is why national championships are rarely ever held in QC (Brier, etc.) - people simply don't turn out. QC will support their own teams of course but when it comes to national-level events they're usually a peg below when it comes to gates and viewership.

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30,165 out in Winnipeg last night for Stamps/Bombers. Good showing for the most part. I get the feeling that IGF's permanent capacity of 33K is a tad too large. Aesthetically it looks great.

Toronto isn't a Canadian city. I think Toronto wants to be everything that London, NYC, and LA want to be versus just being Toronto.

The Wolfpack are fresh and tapping into Toronto's ethnic and foreign base. Lots of Europeans, Aussies, old Commonwealth folks who are big into Rugby. They also play an easy game that last a set amount of time. Toronto people are tight for time and football games drag on to damn long. Folks will only have that patience for baseball as it is a pleasing sport to watch live. Wolfpack now have always staeted momentum for more teams in North America. Once you get Montreal, Chicago, Boston, and NYC into the mix it becomes a more sexy product to market overall. The Wolfpack will be at BMO Field in about 3 years once they outgrow Lamport Stadium.

But back to Toronto. It is just a odd place in the context of Canada. Only in Toronto do more Pride flags hang than Canadian flags for the 150th. Toronto has always been a big booster of Pride but they then shy away from expressing Canadian Pride which IMO is the horse that drags the inclusion cart that allows things such as Pride to be so successful in the first place. These should be linked together but in many cases, as corporate Money has flown towards events such as Pride, they will boost their exposure to one more so than the other when both should, at minimum, get equal exposure.

I've been almost all over this country and Toronto just has its own thing going on. Montreal to me felt more classic Canadian even with the culture and language quirks present there. Vancouver is unapologetically Canadian also, let it think it's California, but is very much Canada in the presence of great scenery and weather that is all.

In a perfect world Toronto would be some special administrative zone so it could just be all different on its own and it would never be a topic for discussion on a national level.

Come on. Sure, there are a number of this generation that like the cool things... and like to take selfies doing cool things. But to chalk up the success of the Jays and Raptors to that is short-sighted and ridiculous. People aren't going to shell out big bucks to sit for a few hours to watch something they don't enjoy just because it's "cool" and they can take a selfie and show off to their friends on social media.

Something becomes cool because people like the product - it doesn't just become cool on its own. And by the same token, something becomes lame when people stop enjoying the product.

It's rather superficial to gauge Canadian pride on the number of flags flown. You are right. Toronto is blessed with far two many unCanadian languages and cursed with no mountains and crappier weather. Striving to be better than its current self is a Canadian trait. Toronto just wants to be a better Toronto.

After all these years on SSP and hundreds of posts later, not one has been all that convincing. It's always far reaching examples and misconstrued data.



Or, Maybe the Canadian identity only exists in subtleties and quirks.

I'm going to have to disagree on a few points.

While Toronto doesn't feel like the 'classical version' of Canada, I still think that it certainly is a Canadian city - one that still reflects the multicultural diversity of this country, especially as it changes. I'd like to think that it represents the Canada of tomorrow - someplace with some ambition to be a player on the world stage. By not being stereotypically Canadian, it makes the city a far more interesting place.

It is like the difference between New York City and Topeka, Kansas - they're very different places - but they're both certainly part of the US.

I also think weather/scenery is a poor metric for Canadian-ness. They have snow in other countries, same with mountains, too.

If you're looking for a 'stereotypically Canadian' city, look no farther than Ottawa. You have a majority English population with a significant French minority, the weather is more in line with what people think of Canada and it is very orderly/bureaucratic in terms of layout and vibe. For all its pleasantness, it is indescribably bland though.

The Argos # doesn't make sense. They only have 9 or so home games don't they? So how could they average 40,000 or so per home game to get such a high total #, when announced attendance would indicate something closer to 140,000 for the season?

Argos home attendance 147,423 in 2016 according to this

https://stats.cfldb.ca/team/toronto-...tendance/2016/