West Gatineau LRT & Downtown Loop | Proposed
 

Calls to expand 'Train-G' or is it O-Train from Hull to Aylmer:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...osal-1.3769612

With the sudden burst of support to run LRT from Aylmer to Hull - does it also make sense to run the old O-Train on the old steam train line from Wakefield to Hull? Assuming that the Prince of Wales Bridge is the connection point for Aylmer to Hull, why not run the Wakefield to Hull line as well?

It all depends on the cost of replacing the washed out section of track and upgrading the rest of the track to allow reasonable speeds (minimum class 2, better yet class 3) and contrast those costs with the expected ridership. If the train is limited to 25km/h (class 1), you aren't going to attract many riders.

see Transport Canada - Classes of Track (note speeds in mph).

I wouldn't call it a sudden burst of support. It's one MP. Obviously he's influential, well-spoken and seems to have a lot of energy to devote to pushing such things along.

But the STO and Gatineau city councillors on the transit file were prudent in their reactions. I don't think any of them threw their support behind the project. Though some did say it was worth studying.

Chelsea and Wakefield and surrounding areas that might draw some train riders have about 15,000 people between them.

At the very least, if the Trillium line were extended north it would go as far as the St-Joseph/Freeman area in the northern end of Hull.

Cantley is on the east side of the Gatineau River and not likely to factor into the catchment area for this train if it happens.

You're likely thinking of Chelsea.

If you extended the Trillium line across the POW and east to Terrasses de la Chaudière it wouldn't be of much use to Gatineau commuters (except those living in Vieux-Hull and working in point west, southwest and south in Ottawa, except that...

You could also have a transfer point between the Rapibus and Trillium line just after it crossed the river near St-Joseph and Taché. There is already a Rapibus station there (Taché-UQO). So Rapibus riders from east end Gatineau could get off there and travel to destinations along the Trillium line (NRCan on Booth, Confederation Heights, etc.)

They could also run direct trains from Terrasses to Tunneys and points west, which would also be useful for this clientele.

The mayor supports the idea as well

It was in his party's program during the last elections it is true.

He's not rah-rah-rah-we-gotta-do-this though. But he wants it seriously considered, sure.

You'd be surprised

Of course it won't get built on someone's word. But here's the situation: the STO is currently seriously considering two options, either "BRT" (more in the Kingston sense than the Ottawa sense) or LRT (more in the Waterloo sense than Ottawa) on Aylmer Road. One option basically costs the price of paint (but has a capacity which will hadly last 10 years), the other costs much more than that, but is a long-term solution, capacity-wise. Normally, the Gatineau thing to do would be to go with the first option, but what Fergus's event has demonstrated, things may have changed.

Historically, Gatineau has not applied for federal infrastructure funding. That was the case for the new bus garage and Rapibus. This was for a variety of reasons, but one relevant one was that the Outaouais has almost always been a politically weak region (municipally, provincially and federally). As a comparison, Ottawa has received a little less than $4000/person in prov/fed transit funding whereas Gatineau has barely seen $1000/person. At the same levels, Gatineau should dispose of over $1B of upper-tier funding alone.

But the post-2011 crop of municipal and federal (and to a certain extent, provincial) representatives have been much, much more vocal and proactive about Gatineau's needs and it would seem that both upper tiers have also been much more receptive.

So what this all means is that, for the first time in a long time, we don't really know how this project will turn out. All of a sudden, it looks like Gatineau might indeed have four times more money to play with in 2016 than it did in 2006. It doesn't mean that Council will take it - it's not really in the Gatineau mentality (yet) - but now they at least have the possibility to do so.

That's why this is such a big deal.

Interesting thoughts!

Some news from the ongoing consultations. There was one last night in Hull and another tonight in Aylmer. So far, the response has been solidly pro-LRT.

The union of residents' associations of Hull and Aylmer have also taken a pro-tram stance and are calling on the City and local MPs and MNAs to push for LRT.


Des Citoyens pour un tramway dans l'Ouest

I'm all in for finding a solution to the line of buses competing with other traffic trying to get through downtown Hull and then into Ottawa, as well as addressing the absurd number of buses crawling on Wellington street in Ottawa in the afternoon (often 3 #200 buses in a row) and then looping around Place du Portage before heading west. However, I have serious concerns of the proposed routes and tramway option:

Number of transfers required: While I agree the station radii walking distance can be extended when considering LRT/tramway over buses, the reality of mostly suburban Aylmer is that a large portion of commuters will need to get on a bus or drive their car in order to access a station, as opposed to the 40 series buses loop de looping through neighbourhoods before heading east. Then at the end of their trip on the tramway, those with a destination a km or more from a station in Hull will have to get on another bus, including a transfer to Rapibus. Everyone headed to somewhere in Ottawa will also be required to transfer, possibly more than once (while the Alexandra Bridge is a great option for crossing the river, providing direct service between both downtowns, I really don't think there will be buy-in to close the bridge to cars). I understand and support a hub and spoke type transit system requiring transfers, but it relies on a trunk line with sufficient frequencies in order to attract more ridership, which is my next concern.

Potential drop in Frequency: Assuming more capacity on a tramway than bus, I fear it will not run as frequently as the buses it's replacing. And while I believe commuters will accept a transfer if it means a faster and more comfortable ride, the drop in frequency on the tramway trunk line will lead to excessive wait times, especially in off peak hours. I have seen references to studies on this forum often enough that demonstrate commuters may be willing to accept transfer, but only if they're kept waiting a short time.

Route through downtown - The proposed rue Taché route options through Hull (rapid transit on Allumetières through Wrightsville roundabouts should be a nonstarter) either never leave the Taché corridor, or do so only briefly via Lucerne behind UQO, returning back to Taché prior to the St-Joseph intersection. Taché east of UQO is a significant bottleneck, so what's the point of creating a rapid transit system, bus or tramway, that slows to a crawl through downtown? The major reason the Ottawa North-South LRT route was cancelled was because of the surface route through downtown. Why are they not considering continuing the B1 Lucerne variant route option along the old rail right of way behind UQUO all the way to Eddy and beyond, possibly coordinating with the ZIBI development? Unless you can tell me they can squeeze two sets of tramway tracks (or bus lanes), with stations, plus minimum two car lanes on Taché between UQO and Eddy, how are these proposed routes creating rapid transit?

It's really unfortunate there is little appetite for transit on the Prince of Wales Bridge. While I agree it's not the best solution for all commutes across the river, it offers a better option for Aylmer to Ottawa commuters than the slow trip through and around downtown Hull, even with a required transfer either on the Gatineau side or at Bayview.

I'll be going to the open house tonight in Aylmer, maybe I'll get some answers to my concerns listed above.

Does anyone have a link showing the proposed options, optimally with maps? It is hard to have an opinion without know what exactly is being proposed.

I'll surely see you there! But let me see if I can answer some questions beforehand.


This will happen one way or another, bet it by bus or rail. The reality is that Ottawa (for better or worse) wants to essentially eliminate STO buses from downtown. So to reduce the number of vehicles at peak, the STO will have to move from a trunk system to a hub-and-spoke system, signalling the end of the transfer-less rush hour buses.

And one way/bridge or another, LRT will head to Ottawa for precisely that reason. Don't give up on the Alexandra bridge just yet.


I wouldn't worry too much about this. Even in ridership-starved US cities like Norfolk (whose LRT hardly scratches 5 000 rides per day), a tram arrives every 15 minutes at most 7 days a week (although it's every 30 minutes after 10pm). Aylmer and Plateau alone average over 20 000 rides with the current system and would conservatively exceed 30 000 with the tram. We should manage to at least match those off-peak 15-minute frequencies.


I'd imagine that the old railway would indeed be used from UQO to Eddy. I would certainly push for it. The problem is that both neighbourhoods which that alignment would cross fought hard against a proposed busway in the 90s which would have passed there (see Viabus).

I've spoken to the association for one of the neighbourhoods, Val-Tétreau, and their concern is that the ever-growing number of buses required to transport the ever-growing volumes of people from the west of Gatineau downtown will increase the burden of noise, dust and unsafe sidewalks they already carry. Perhaps worse still, the peak buses are already full once they get there, meaning that they deal with the downsides of hundreds of buses, but only gain the benefits of a fraction of that.

However, they spoke very enthusiastically about the tram, seeing it as a way to trade loud, lumbering diesel buses passing several times per minute at peak with no room for new passengers for quiet, electric trams running every few minutes with capacity to spare. They made it clear to me that they would not accept a new Viabus running on that alignment, but that LRT would be welcomed.

They always say that frequencies will stay the same as a minimum when they move from direct express buses to hub and spoke (bus or rail, don't matter), but my observation has been that frequencies on local routes in neighbourhoods often drop. That's because transit operators who implement hub and spoke are looking for savings and efficiences. High frequency along the main hub lines is resource-intensive, so...

Just as an example, my neighbourhood had 10-12 minute express bus service to Hull and Ottawa prior to the Rapibus. When the Rapibus was implemented they dropped this to half-hour service in the peak AM and PM period to and from the closest Rapibus station.

It's not really a big problem in the morning because people normally head out for a specific time when the bus is expected. And at the Rapibus transfer point to downtown frequencies are high. But for the "last mile" in the afternoon and evening it's still problematic even today, as arriving a minute too late at the Rapibus station and just missing your local can increase your commute time by half an hour.

As a result, many people in the Gatineau sector stopped taking the local routes and now drive to Rapibus park and ride lots. The local routes are far from capacity even during the AM and PM peaks, which is in turn a self-fulfilling prophecy that now justifies the 30-minute frequencies.

STO website on consultations:
English
French

Presentation with route options (French only): http://www.sto.ca/fileadmin/user_upl...ine_Poteau.pdf

Glad to hear you'll be in attendance; it won't be until 7:30 or so until I get there. Thanks for answering some of my questions. Discussion to be continued!

Good Day....

Cross posted for J.OT13 :

EnJoy!