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-   -   The Charm, and Challenge, of Savannah (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239935)

the urban politician Aug 8, 2019 4:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8652938)
I actually stay in a new construction hotel on Upper King for work. Don't find the area urban/unique at all. This is the general area:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7978...7i16384!8i8192

^ Wow, I'm visiting that streetview and come away with an exactly opposite impression from yours.

Yes, there is vacant land, but if you look at the existing structures and the new infill, all of it is in proper urban format.

Crawford Aug 8, 2019 5:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 8652944)
^ Wow, I'm visiting that streetview and come away with an exactly opposite impression from yours.

Yes, there is vacant land, but if you look at the existing structures and the new infill, all of it is in proper urban format.

It's perfectly fine, but it doesn't look notably different from random infill in Columbus or Raleigh or Portland. It has nothing to do with Charleston's supposed uniqueness.

LA21st Aug 8, 2019 5:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8652938)
I actually stay in a new construction hotel on Upper King for work. Don't find the area urban/unique at all. This is the general area:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7978...7i16384!8i8192

The point is that the "charming" part of Charleston is very small, geographically, and isn't growing, even as the region booms. There's maybe 1 square mile of "old" in a metro of nearly one million, and there will still be 1 square mile whether the region has 100k or 10 million.

Yea, there's nothing that stands out there. Not urban for me either. Certainly not a paradise of any sort.

KB0679 Aug 8, 2019 5:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8652938)
I actually stay in a new construction hotel on Upper King for work. Don't find the area urban/unique at all. This is the general area:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7978...7i16384!8i8192

It's clear as day that that area is urbanizing. I don't understand how that isn't obvious to you. Of course it's brand new construction but it's still an extension of downtown Charleston.

Quote:

The point is that the "charming" part of Charleston is very small, geographically, and isn't growing, even as the region booms. There's maybe 1 square mile of "old" in a metro of nearly one million, and there will still be 1 square mile whether the region has 100k or 10 million.
And there is quality infill occurring in that historic square mile or so, and the northern part of the peninsula is most certainly urbanizing.

sopas ej Aug 8, 2019 9:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8652938)
I actually stay in a new construction hotel on Upper King for work. Don't find the area urban/unique at all. This is the general area:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7978...7i16384!8i8192

The point is that the "charming" part of Charleston is very small, geographically, and isn't growing, even as the region booms. There's maybe 1 square mile of "old" in a metro of nearly one million, and there will still be 1 square mile whether the region has 100k or 10 million.

I've never been to Charleston, but yeah, the area you show in the link isn't urban at all. When you slowly zoom out of that block, it's all the more evident.

lio45 Aug 8, 2019 10:25 PM

This (essentially the same spot as Crawford's link) looks IMO much nicer (more texture, better materials, bigger windows, better architectural details) than the crap that's getting built in places like Nashville and Charlotte.

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7978...7i16384!8i8192

lio45 Aug 8, 2019 10:28 PM

Also, this it what it replaced. Night and day...

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7984...7i13312!8i6656

lio45 Aug 8, 2019 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8652938)
The point is that the "charming" part of Charleston is very small, geographically, and isn't growing, even as the region booms.

Which is exactly as it should be, given that the historic square mile can only get either preserved as it currently is, or irreversibly spoiled. And I'm 10000x for the former over the latter.

(I suppose that may have been your point, in which case, we're in agreement.)

JManc Aug 8, 2019 11:13 PM

Charleston is not Midtown Manhattan. With that out of the way, it's a very walkable, urban area with a fuck ton of charm. It reminds me of some New England coastal towns. Was only there a few hours and all my camera gear fogged up so never got opportunity to capture it.

KB0679 Aug 8, 2019 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA21st (Post 8652965)
Yea, there's nothing that stands out there. Not urban for me either. Certainly not a paradise of any sort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sopas ej (Post 8653309)
I've never been to Charleston, but yeah, the area you show in the link isn't urban at all. When you slowly zoom out of that block, it's all the more evident.

Nobody claimed that area was urban but it is clearly urbanizing. To claim otherwise is to be either blind or disingenuous.

KB0679 Aug 8, 2019 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 8653367)
Which is exactly as it should be, given that the historic square mile can only get either preserved as it currently is, or irreversibly spoiled. And I'm 10000x for the former over the latter.

(I suppose that may have been your point, in which case, we're in agreement.)

There is actually infill occurring in and near the traditional historic downtown area as well. Hotel Bennett, built right on Marion Square, is a recent example.

Sun Belt Aug 8, 2019 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KB0679 (Post 8653421)
Nobody claimed that area was urban but it is clearly urbanizing. To claim otherwise is to be either blind or disingenuous.

What are they expecting? Boston? Charleston 1960 population was only 60,000.

Sun Belt Aug 9, 2019 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uaarkson (Post 8652805)
I like Savannah way better than Charleston. Bigger historic core, more cosmopolitan, quick and easy access to fantastic beaches on Tybee and Hilton Head islands.

Charleston has some great beach communities as well and are very close the Historic core. Even these beachside communities have incredible civil war/revolutionary war history.

Sullivans Island is located just off of Charleston Harbor on one side. It's 10 minutes away from downtown.

Isle of Palms is a great town. Half of it consists of Wild Dunes Resort. Private residences + golf resort.

Folly Beach on the other side of the harbor is a laid back small surf town, completely different feel from Sullivans and IoP.

Farther down the coast from Folly is Kiawah Island. Like Wild Dunes to the north, you'll find excellent accommodations and residences.

-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8652842)
But then New Orleans, which has like 5x the amount of "colonial architecture in a subtropical setting" as Charleston (or Savannah), is always near dead-last on those "best places to relocate" lists, while Charleston is always near the top. Both places are flat, swampy, not particularly diverse, large AA population, unique food & culture, bad beaches.

For whatever reason, northerners don't move to NOLA, but they're crazy for Charleston.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician (Post 8652884)
^ The reason is obvious.

Politically, NO is a "chocolate city" while Charleston is an "old south" style city with southern gentlemen hand in hand with southern belles and all that antebellum-style southern charm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8652903)
Maybe you're right and it's all that Gone with the Wind marketing crap. New Orleans metro is 34% AA, Charleston metro is 28% AA, not a big difference. Far more plantation/antebellum stuff around NOLA.

^Why some people are confused and can't seem to figure out why/how Charleston is different than a city 750 miles away is beyond me.

Totally different places, different culture, different history. Charleston attracts different people than N.O. because, surprise surprise, they're not in the same region of the U.S.

Fun Fact: New York is the same distance from Charleston, as Charleston is from New Orleans.

:P

lio45 Aug 9, 2019 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KB0679 (Post 8653432)
There is actually infill occurring in and near the traditional historic downtown area as well. Hotel Bennett, built right on Marion Square, is a recent example.

WOW! How nicely done.

(For anyone else - on the right hand side, you can see what it replaced.)
https://www.google.ca/maps/@32.78664...7i13312!8i6656

lio45 Aug 9, 2019 12:11 AM

I'm going to start to look into Charleston real estate, I could see myself wanting to spend some time down there :) very impressive heritage preservation and integration. Puts us up here to shame (and nearly everyone else too).

lio45 Aug 9, 2019 4:01 AM

I'm liking this one. Built in 1760 (older than my oldest building), and was the home of a signer of the Declaration of Independence. :tup:

https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...-19017?view=qv

Seriously though, there's nothing decent downtown that isn't in the seven figures.
(I wonder what the cap rate would be on Airbnb for a pre-Civil War $1M-$2M nice little house; I have started to operate my most luxurious building this way (all units) and it's really profitable compared to yearly rental, but it happens to be in an area where the zoning allows for hotels; not sure that would be true everywhere in downtown Charleston.)

Sun Belt Aug 9, 2019 1:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lio45 (Post 8653646)
I'm liking this one. Built in 1760 (older than my oldest building), and was the home of a signer of the Declaration of Independence. :tup:

https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...-19017?view=qv

Seriously though, there's nothing decent downtown that isn't in the seven figures.
(I wonder what the cap rate would be on Airbnb for a pre-Civil War $1M-$2M nice little house; I have started to operate my most luxurious building this way (all units) and it's really profitable compared to yearly rental, but it happens to be in an area where the zoning allows for hotels; not sure that would be true everywhere in downtown Charleston.)

Downtown is extremely expensive, but let's keep in mind it is the most desirable area of the peninsula/non-beach region, due to the historical value of the property. You can buy nice, new properties across the Ravenel bridge in Mount Pleasant for under half a million.

Mount Pleasant is desirable because you're in downtown in a couple minutes, you're at the beach in a couple minutes and with the 526 you're at the airport in a couple minutes along with huge employers in and around the airport area.

lrt's friend Aug 9, 2019 2:17 PM

I've been to both Savannah and Charleston and loved them both. However, as these cities grow without a good quality transit system, all we will be adding is the same awful sprawl that we see in most other cities. I was very fortunate on my visits to have stayed in the old urban parts of the cities. This made for a most enjoyable experience.

eschaton Aug 9, 2019 3:10 PM

I spent some time in Savannah about a year and a half ago. It's beautiful, but I don't think people realize how small the "urban" part of the city really is. The downtown area proper only has about 3,400 residents. If you add in the historic, but slightly newer/less walkable areas surrounding Forsyth Park, there's another 40,000 or so. The walkable area is tightly restricted by the river to the north, and really unfortunate urban renewal decisions (along with large heavily black housing projects) to the east and west. The only place it seems to organically merge with the surrounding fabric is to the south, where it's racially mixed and seems to be gentrifying, forming a straight up "white corridor" directly to the more suburban areas like Chatham Crescent.

Still, there really isn't all that much upside potential for Savannah I think. Housing is already pretty damn expensive, unless you're looking for a non-historic home in one of the ghetto neighborhoods. The city is pretty set on not densifying the core area - for good reason I think - but it still limits the ability to build major new apartment areas. It's kinda a shame the city never developed a second downtown the way New Orleans did (French Quarter the original downtown), because it would be helpful if there was an area wide open for development just a short walk from the core.

BG918 Aug 9, 2019 4:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 8652903)
Maybe you're right and it's all that Gone with the Wind marketing crap. New Orleans metro is 34% AA, Charleston metro is 28% AA, not a big difference. Far more plantation/antebellum stuff around NOLA.

The difference is that New Orleans itself is heavily black while in Charleston most of the blacks live in North Charleston while the historic peninsula is majority white.


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