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-   -   PHILADELPHIA | 702 Sansom Street | 315 FT | 24 FLOORS (https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=226774)

jsbrook Mar 2, 2018 6:30 PM

They definitely failed Building 101 on this one. They had to have known all of this would be an issue. With respect to the retail, they increased it after complaints for inadequate amounts. Duh. I would have to think the delay and the legal battles have cost a pretty penny, and they would have done just as well had hey approached it differently even with maintaining facades and other concessions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by City Wide (Post 8105576)
This could have been so much different from a PR basis-------and I think they could have easily avoided 95% of the controversy and probably would have been welcomed with open arms.
1. save the facades,-----a no brainer
2. included retail at least on the ground floor, so the idea of jewelers row might have continued
3. before releasing any designs they should have had a informational meeting with the neighbors (Washington Sq. west?) to hear just in general their concerns and worries and desires (something many developers do)
4. not try to play games with the lot lines and including a City alley in their plans
5. tried to include some parking (doubtful considering the site, but show that they tried)
6. if they wanted more height or other factors from the City they could have talked to the mayor/others before going public

And then as the first tower they are building in Philly, I think it would have served them well to have designed a much better building.

Does any of this directly make them more profit? Who knows. But they could have been under construction by now, and time equals money.

As it is I don't think you could have drawn a pre-construction roadmap as poorly as the one they have traveled. They've had problems from day 1 and in my observation not that many people like the project as it now stands.


Urbanthusiat Mar 20, 2018 10:22 PM

Toll Brothers' releases new design for Jewelers Row tower

http://planphilly.com/uploads/media_...752.1128.s.jpg

http://planphilly.com/uploads/media_....752.941.s.jpg

http://planphilly.com/articles/2018/...lers-row-tower

...
This is much better.

jsbrook Mar 20, 2018 10:47 PM

4th times a charm? Hardly a charm. But a definite improvement. The bar was set so low, that's not hard.

City Wide Mar 20, 2018 11:00 PM

^^^ very true, a very low bar to cross.

This plan includes some balconies, which is always a good feature. But it also means that Toll is still playing around trying to decide what the market wants. It might just be the perspective of the drawing, but to me this appears very top heavy, the crown is TALL.

Inquizative Mar 20, 2018 11:55 PM

I think Toll Brothers have become emboldened and decided to design what they wanted in the first place. The 2 previous (especially the first one) was a patronizing design to appease the nostalgic NIMBY's. They're never going to be happy so,"Just Do It!"

iheartphilly Mar 21, 2018 12:14 AM

Toll could do a masonry build to blend in with jeweler’s row and make a lot of people happy but they have gone rogue by going mostly glass. If it stood alone, I wouldn’t care and actually would be happy with the design and glass wrap. Kinda reminds me of the 500 walnut project standing next to masonary and brutalist builds. Just build it already.

El Duderino Mar 21, 2018 12:14 AM

if this was a new proposal popping up anywhere else, i would guess we’d all be pretty stoked - the aftertaste of the ugliness is hard to wash out. while this won’t be winning any awards, this is for sure far superior to everything that’s been presented thus far. i hope there’s some additional renderings that pop up of the street level so we can get a better idea of how this integrates, or - more appropriately - stands out.

CCGuy Mar 21, 2018 1:23 AM

Build it!

Mr Saturn64 Mar 21, 2018 1:26 AM

Yes, build it already. It's fine as it is. Just do it!

jsbrook Mar 21, 2018 1:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by City Wide (Post 8126762)
^^^ very true, a very low bar to cross.

This plan includes some balconies, which is always a good feature. But it also means that Toll is still playing around trying to decide what the market wants. It might just be the perspective of the drawing, but to me this appears very top heavy, the crown is TALL.

Why are there no private balconies on the Washington Square side? Makes no sense. More generally, this still misses the boat by miles. But I think it's the best we will do, and it's no longer vomit-inducing, so let's get on with it.

allovertown Mar 21, 2018 5:56 AM

The renders finally look "ok." But in nearly every project, the renders look a lot better than the finished project. If this project suffers from a similar degradation I think the finished project will slip back into the "Steaming Pile of Shit" category.

The way they just radically change the base with every redesign, seemingly without any rhyme or reason, really goes to show how little they care, how weak they are in their vision. If you had a really purpose driven design here, they'd be reluctant to make changes. They're just throwing shit at a wall until they can get a demo permit.

I was in Phoenix recently and I saw their name on numerous mcmansion developments, it seems like they're building a ton out there. I wish they'd just stick to doing shit like that. They're comically not up to the task here.

Redddog Mar 21, 2018 1:13 PM

I like the brick base better.

McBane Mar 21, 2018 1:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartphilly (Post 8126844)
Toll could do a masonry build to blend in with jeweler’s row and make a lot of people happy but they have gone rogue by going mostly glass. If it stood alone, I wouldn’t care and actually would be happy with the design and glass wrap.

The old "blend in the base with like materials so NIMBYs can pretend there is no tower" trick is so cheesy and played out. The end product always looks disjointed and the brick/limestone panels used today always look painfully bad next to the real thing. I much prefer this look, although I agree with others that it's still just "meh". I will say however, that a true facadectomy can look really good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartphilly (Post 8126844)
Kinda reminds me of the 500 walnut project standing next to masonary and brutalist builds. Just build it already.

You don't like that? The juxtaposition of the modernist glass 500 Walnut next to the early 20th century Penn Mutual Tower and the 1970's Annex building and behind the Colonial era Independence Hall is my favorite. Nothing highlights our city's rich architectural heritage better than this diverse collection of buildings.

QUESTION: The crown does look big. Did the height change at all? Or did they reduce number of units?

Chubbs Peterson Mar 21, 2018 3:37 PM

Looks like someone chopped up the Comcast tower.

Knight Hospitaller Mar 21, 2018 3:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBane (Post 8127303)
The old "blend in the base with like materials so NIMBYs can pretend there is no tower" trick is so cheesy and played out. The end product always looks disjointed and the brick/limestone panels used today always look painfully bad next to the real thing. I much prefer this look, although I agree with others that it's still just "meh". I will say however, that a true facadectomy can look really good.

I mainly agree. As much of an architectural "conservationist" as I am, the attempts to "blend in" weren't working. That said, looking at the latest street level concept, I think having raised brick accents contrasting with the glass, rather than the tan material pictured, would be a cool way to have the old transition to the new.

Frontst17 Mar 21, 2018 4:14 PM

I think it meets the street better surprisingly with the glass frontage. It says more hey come check us out. The previous iterations seemed like a giant "KEEP OUT THIS IS MINE" sign... there's enough going on with the tower to be interesting but the crown is ugly. It's huge and doesn't really "echo" any other structures in the city except maybe the Comcast building and if anything this is the ugly squat clunky step-child. I just hope they know what they're getting into with this spot as far as clientele. They have towers sprouting up in Jersey City rented to mostly young professionals and they look shoddy up close and the units don't look any better. Much like their cookie-cutter homes in the suburbs. Not sure people looking to live in Washington Square will accept that.

Design-mind Mar 21, 2018 6:35 PM

The tower portion is very mediocre but they have done a pretty good job in creating a pedestrian space that echoes the old facades. IMHO I think that more brick a less glass would have helped create a more cohesive street presence.

eixample Mar 21, 2018 8:03 PM

As someone who is depressed by this project based on what this will do to a Sansom Street block that harkens back to an era long before it was a jeweler's row, I can still say that I like the new glass base better. Simulating a historical feel often turns out mediocre and worse than contemporary architecture, case in point the turds Toll Bros put forward before.

City Wide Mar 22, 2018 1:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allovertown (Post 8127151)
The renders finally look "ok." But in nearly every project, the renders look a lot better than the finished project. If this project suffers from a similar degradation I think the finished project will slip back into the "Steaming Pile of Shit" category.

The way they just radically change the base with every redesign, seemingly without any rhyme or reason, really goes to show how little they care, how weak they are in their vision. If you had a really purpose driven design here, they'd be reluctant to make changes. They're just throwing shit at a wall until they can get a demo permit.

I was in Phoenix recently and I saw their name on numerous mcmansion developments, it seems like they're building a ton out there. I wish they'd just stick to doing shit like that. They're comically not up to the task here.

Just wait until they 'value engineer' this to death. Since as you say Toll doesn't seem to have any overall concept or plan or understanding of the city, what will keep them from going cheap at every possible choice.
The street level design might be Ok in a vacuum, but in this context, this street with its variety of styles, I think this is just another terd in their series of terds.

jsbrook Apr 3, 2018 11:30 PM

CDR Meeting on this:

http://planphilly.com/articles/2018/...s-construction

TLDR version: CDR calls turd a turd; crowd expresses anger; Toll team walks out; project moving forward, probably unchanged.


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