I mean everyone likes different parts of sports so you'll get people on both sides of the scoring thing. My favourite part of slower sports like hockey, rugby and football is the tension and release of scoring. I love basketball too though, but there 3s and dunks kind of fill that space for me as well.

Agree, but as I said the mainstream NA fan following isn't large enough to recognize that and will accept sevens for what it is.

True about the Oilers but does anybody like an All Star game? I had to cover a game between SMU and SFX back then and the score was something like 10-8 and it was one of the worst things I had seen.

It's not so much an issue in a league with 32 teams if a few markets even the large ones see a drop in support. It's still a massive money making machine. The same can't be said for a league with only 9 teams where it's numbers are falling in it's three largest markets. The NFL has much deeper pockets and can handle a drought longer then the CFL can.

And that's my point. If sevens is the one that mainstream broadcasters here push harder, it will become the standard, making it even harder for 15s to break through.

You're generally right. Attendance at the Cowboys game was over 90,000 I think.

The thing is is that people are used to most NFL games being sold out or near-sellouts. Especially early in the season when anything is possible. It's towards the end of the season when teams are out of the running that you see attendance duds. At least that's the way it used to be.

Little late to the NFL attendance discussion here but the NFL doesn't rely on gate figures like a lot of other leagues do. It's all in TV and advertising revenue. 60k or 45k doesn't matter much to teams that valuable in a league that valuable. Obviously there's an optics issue when franchises like the 49ers and Bengals have 10-25% of their stadiums empty for season opening kickoffs. LA is....LA, that discussion has been beaten to death.

So much of the aura of the NFL is the event spectacle. Getting together on a Sunday, watching big games in big stadiums, and generally experiencing the pinnacle of sport in the US. Its online presence is massive with fantasy football and punditry and everything else. Having a few empty seats probably doesn't concern NFL HQ that much at this stage financially but certainly doesn't create great optics.

What the numbers coming out of SF and LA tell us is that teams are willing to claim sellout numbers when they're nowhere physically close to being accurate in terms of actual turnout.

In the beginning of August MLS signed a new jersey sponsorship deal with Adidas worth $700M over seven seasons. The $100M/year is quadruple the $200M deal signed on 2010 and worth more per season than the NHL recently signed for their jerseys.

That's where the money is, at least today.

It used to be like that (highlighted) but not anymore.

These days the NFL is trying more to make each and every game a spectacle. That's why they're spreading the schedule out more throughout the week.

If you've ever been in your average NFL city when there is a regular season game on you'll know what I mean.

Every single game is increasingly a huge event in the city where it's taking place.

BTW, the Ottawa Redblacks have done this on a micro level with their game days, and this is a big part of the team's great success in this area.

Edmonton as well, they want to make every game an event. They had the Arkells at the last game.

Many teams are coming to the conclusion (including Ottawa) that although the people in attendance may not be watching the game, they are there and hopefully buying into an experience that they will want to repeat.

Specifically what are they doing because they are certainly doing something right.

Sept 4-10, 2017
TORONTO/DETROIT................SEPT 8-10...MLB....ROGERS................TORONTO.......38,659 (115,976 TOTAL)
EDMONTON/CALGARY.............SEPT 9........CFL...COMMONWEALTH....EDMONTON.....34,312
WINNIPEG/SASKATCHEWAN.....SEPT 9......CFL.....IGF FIELD.............WINNIPEG........33,134
TORONTO/SAN JOSE...............SEPT 9......MLS.....BMO FIELD.............TORONTO.......29,050
OTTAWA/HAMILTON................SEPT 9......CFL......TD PLACE.............OTTAWA...........24,901

VANCOUVER/SALT LAKE............SEPT 9....MLS....BC PLACE...VANCOUVER....20,783
BC/MONTREAL.........................SEPT 8.....CFL....BC PLACE....VANCOUVER...18,029
TORONTO/BARROW..................SEPT 9.....RFL....LAMPORT....TORONTO........7,972
EDMONTON/NORTH CAROLINA...SEPT 10....NASL....CLARKE....EDMONTON.....3,549

• Jays continue to stay on top - barely;
• TFC second-highest attendance of season;
• REDBLACKS and Blue Bombers sellouts;
• Lowest attendance for a BC Lions game since Week 4, 2002. Week 12, 2016 was also the lowest attendance for the Lions last season (18,107);
• Wolfpack season-high attendance

OK, my definition of spectacle is a little different I guess. I think of it more of the trying to make it bigger than the game and hitting audiences outside of football fans - like the Super Bowl does (massive marketing blitz, cross-promotions, half-time stuff, etc).

The way you're stating it makes me think of the games as "events"... which I consider different than spectacle. But you're right though - they're definitely trying to make every game seem special and not just another game.

The NFL has a big advantage over the other major leagues - in that each team only plays 16 games and most of the games are played on one day. Each game feels much more important and meaningful, and you don't have to dedicate a lot of time throughout the week to watch. And because of this it's also much more appealing to watch games that don't have your team playing. As stated, it feels more like an event.

For someone like me who is older and just doesn't put very much importance in sports as I used to - the NFL fits perfectly. I want to follow a sport I enjoy, but don't want to invest a lot of time. Basically once a week (for the most part) for about 5 months of the year.

^ That's a huge part of football's appeal to me... your team plays once a week. It's not a big time commitment. I enjoy hockey but I don't think I could ever be one of those guys who watches their team play 80+ games a year. For the most part I watch snippets of Jets games on TV, a period here, a period there.

Yeah I'll definitely watch an entire hockey game if I have nothing else to do, but I won't try and structure my day around (though I don't try all that hard) the way I do with football. Only for playoffs of course, though that hasn't been a problem I've had to deal with for a few years now :haha:

I can definitely see that.

If a person has even the slightest interest in gridiron football, the NFL is like crack cocaïne.

It's the most slickly packaged sports entertainemnt product the world has ever seen.

I always assumed there are some soccer leagues in Europe which eclipses the NFL in this regard. I don't follow, so I really don't know what's going on... I just get the impression they've got a bigger following and more rabid/dedicated fans.

Even in the top leagues in Europe it tends to be more low key than the NFL and it's not anywhere close to having fairly balanced levels of fandom across the entire league like the NFL has.

In the English Premier League about half the teams or more draw CFL-type crowds (or sometimes less), but the top three are like the Dallas Cowboys. This is of course due in large part to the relegation-promotion system.

Almost every single NFL club is extremely consistently in the 60-70,000 range in terms of average attendance.

Also, the passion for soccer in Europe is real but it's more a result of a long history than marketing hype. (Not to be judgemental - but it's a fact.)

Of that, there is no question.

For the most part they follow their local teams. Cheering for a team in another country over your own would indeed be strange.

Crowd size is only indicative of so much. If we were going by raw attendance then leagues like the MLB and NHL are ahead of the NFL. Going by average attendance means sports like F1 are at the top. There's a balance between weighting overall appeal and physical revenue at stadiums. Sure, CFL teams might outdraw 25% of EPL teams in any given year, but that doesn't take into account merchandising, TV, and other revenue streams.

TFC currently draws higher than Stoke and Crystal Palace but that has no bearing on them being more popular worldwide or being a better team. There are more variables at play than just crowd sizes. It's a good indication, maybe, but not definitive.

I know. But I still think that in the case of the NFL, the (extreme) level of fandom there is more evenly spread out across all of the league's clubs, than what you'd find in any football (soccer) league in Europe.

Some Europeans I know do cheer for teams in other countries. For example, friends of ours live in France and their two boys are Real Madrid fans - and there is nothing Spanish whatsoever about this family. But they're also fans of the local French first division team in their area. They don't ignore the national league in the country they live in.

But now that I think of it, the majority of Europeans I know are first and foremost fans of teams in their country - usually of the area they live in, or if they've moved for work, of the region that their family is originally from.

If they are big football fans, they'll watch English, German or Spanish soccer in addition to their home leagues.

But without having a vested interest in it. Kind of like how I watch the NFL.

It's akin to watching American presidential elections for me. It's often good for entertainment value, but I don't really feel directly involved in what's going on.

I find that's part of the appeal of rugby (15's) for me. I like the few days post game for the analysis, then the buildup through the week to game day. I get that same effect as a player as well as fan.

7's is good for getting people into the game without learning many rules. I suppose rugby league (13 man version) is good for that too, but I still find it's not as satisfying as 15's. But as mentioned, people who are introduced to the shortened versions may end up preferring those.

I think 15's will eventually get a decent following once a league gets off the ground. Major League Rugby is supposed to be launching next year, and there are already rumours about an Ontario team for 2019. https://www.thestar.com/sports/2017/...by-outfit.html

Oh yea. So much so that many will make sure they tune into the broadcast intro to Monday Night Football to see the performances of Carrie Underwood (previously Faith Hill). Those segments themselves offer great entertainment value. In the NFL, it's so much more than just the game.

Last night was a perfect example: a double header on a Monday night. 6 to 9 pm EDT for one game and 9 to midnight EDT for the other.

How many people on the west coast left work early to catch the first game at 3 pm PDT?

Wanna bet it's way more than we'd expect?

If I watch one NFL game a year, they are lucky. I have absolutely no reason to be interested or excited by the games and I am bored silly by the style and pace of the game.

I'll agree to disagree and say that they're both fairly similar depending on the country. England, Germany, Italy, Spain fandom in soccer are almost certainly up there with the NFL in the US. Countries like France, Holland, etc. are further behind.

I mean, most footy derbies have to be played before a certain hour of the day to prevent (how you put it) extreme levels of fandom. I don't think Cowboys/Redskins has to be played before 2PM on Thanksgiving to prevent fights and disputes between fans. ;)

I've been there at European city derby matches. The ultra hardcore fans that sit behind the goals are more intense than anything we have in North America. But that is not the entire city or even the fan base.

Except maybe for the City vs United derby game, regular season Bears games stop Chicago in its tracks more than similar soccer games monopolize attention in Manchester.

The Vancouver Canadians baseball team just won their league championship last nite! Pretty sure the game was sold out.

I wonder if they'll ever start a major expansion of the park, as sell-outs are very common I hear. I know they've done a little here and there, but you'd think with the growth they've had it might come up at some point.

You probably don't want to push it too far since situations where minor league baseball teams are hot tickets tend to be short lived, at least in Canada. The Winnipeg Goldeyes went through a phase where they were selling out every game for the first few years after Shaw Park was built, to the point where they expanded a couple of times from about 4,500 to around 7,500. Now there are simply too many seats and the games never sell out.

I seem to recall the Ottawa Lynx and Edmonton Trappers went through similar phases...

From what I understand it's been going on for quite a few years now, but you're right, definitely don't want to overextend yourself. I personally don't care, I've never even been to a game. Just curious if it's something that's been kicked around at all. Even just adding another stand to the right side of home to make it symmetrical.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a5/2d/69/a...db4d605183.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/forum/show....php?p=7506598

CFL, NFL launch joint flag football initiative
CFL.ca Staff September 15 2017

TORONTO — The Canadian Football League (CFL) and National Football League (NFL) launched a flag football program that will engage hundreds of kids across the country on Friday. The program for Canadian youth will culminate in a national flag football tournament during the week of the 105th Grey Cup presented by Shaw in Ottawa, with the winner travelling to Pro Bowl week in Orlando, FL to participate in the NFL FLAG Championships.

The CFL/NFL Flag Football initiative will teach kids the fundamentals of the game and promote physical activity. Alongside skills development, participants will receive lessons in teamwork, sportsmanship, and other lessons that help them succeed both on and off the field.

“This flag football tournament series is an exciting example of our continued commitment to grow the game,” said Glen Johnson, CFL Senior Vice President of Football. “Developing programming for youth football with our partners at the NFL promotes a healthy lifestyle and the continued success of our sport in a fun and safe way.”

“We are excited to partner with the CFL on youth initiatives in Canada,” added David Thomson, Managing Director, NFL Canada. “Both leagues share the goal of strengthening the interest, awareness and participation in football among Canadians. This is a great opportunity to showcase the talent, dedication and achievements of local flag leagues during the CFL’s Grey Cup week in Ottawa and the NFL’s Pro Bowl week in Orlando, Florida.”

Coed teams of 11-12-year old athletes will take part in nine regional tournaments to be held in CFL cities throughout the fall, coming together for a national tournament during Grey Cup week in the nation’s capital. The winner of this tournament will compete in the NFL FLAG Championships during Pro Bowl week next January in Orlando, FL.

Each regional tournament will feature eight teams with a maximum 10 players each. Participants will meet current CFL players, interact with CFL cheer teams and mascots, and enjoy football-themed games and activities alongside their matches in each CFL market. Each regional tournament’s victorious team will win a trip to Ottawa to play in the CFL/NFL Flag Football Championship during Grey Cup Week.
Here is the list of the upcoming regional tournaments:

Edmonton: Saturday, September 23rd at The Brick Field at Commonwealth Stadium
BC: Saturday, September 30th at W.J. Mouat Secondary in Abbotsford, BC
Montreal: Saturday, October 7th at Collège André-Grasset
Saskatchewan: Sunday, October 8th at Mosaic Stadium
Ottawa: Sunday, October 15th at TD Place Stadium
Calgary: Sunday, October 15th at Shouldice Athletic Park
Hamilton: Sunday, October 22nd at Tim Hortons Field
Winnipeg: Sunday, October 22nd at Investors Group Field
Toronto: Saturday, October 28th at Birchmount Stadium

National tournament:

Tuesday, November 21st at the University of Ottawa (Gee-Gees Field)

Participants for the program have been selected through CFL member teams and local organizations. More information can be found at CFL.ca/flag. Both the CFL and the NFL will continue to invest in youth football programming and promote increased physical activity.

Crowd was up in Montreal for the game against the REDBLACKS who, inexplicably, are a poor draw in the league. I actually don't have proof of that but I see it posted in places.

Not sure why crowd was up (new coach?) but it would be good if Ottawa and Montreal could form a rivalry like they had in the old days IIRC.

Attendance: 22,596
97% capacity

Well, the Alouettes were in the Quebec media a lot during the last week, even if it was because of all the turmoil.

As we say in French: parlez-en en bien, parlez-en en mal, mais... parlez-en!

Sept 12-18, 2017
TORONTO/BALTIMORE............SEPT 11-13..MLB....ROGERS...........TORONTO.....29,723 (89,170 TOTAL)
CALGARY/BC.........................SEPT 16.......CFL.....MCMAHON........CALGARY......28,176
HAMILTON/SASKATCHEWAN....SEPT 15.......CFL....TIM HORTONS...HAMILTON....23,604
MONTREAL/OTTAWA...............SEPT 17.......CFL....MOLSON...........MONTREAL....22,596
MONTREAL/MINNESOTA..........SEPT 16.......MLS....SAPUTO...........MONTREAL....20,801

VANCOUVER/COLUMBUS.........SEPT 16....MLS.....BC PLACE.....VANCOUVER.....20,592
VANCOUVER/MINNESOTA........SEPT 13....MLS.....BC PLACE.....VANCOUVER.....17,368
TORONTO/EDMONTON............SEPT 16....CFL......BMO............TORONTO.........13,182
TORONTO/DONCASTER...........SEPT 16....RFL.....,LAMPORT.....TORONTO.........8,456
EDMONTON/INDIANAPOLIS.....SEPT 17....NASL......CLARKE.......EDMONTON.......3,097

Notes:

• Jays come back down to Earth;
• Alouettes put up season-high after two consecutive decade-lows;
• Whitecaps double, the midweek was a season-low;
• Wolfpack end their season with a season-high, promotion to RFL2 for next season

It was indeed odd. Seeing a season-high crowd after the two previous lows was a bit unexpected. I haven't seen any photos to compare crowd-size to see if it was a giveaway situation or not.

According to cfldb the lowest drawing away team in the league is Calgary (23.3K), highest is Sask (28.7K). Montreal is second lowest with Toronto third lowest.

^^
The Wolfpack story has been a revelation, I have got to check out some games next season. Are their games even viewable online or on TV?

From what I saw on Twitter and in the stands there was a lot of RedBlacks fans there, but also being a nice Sunny day in Montreal (some pseudo tailgating available) vs. the last 2 games were Thursday nights which are usually tough nights to get a good crowd.

How can you tell if it is a "giveaway" situation from a photo? Why would they suddenly start to give away tickets? I believe Montreal has some of the most expensive tickets in the league. It doesn't make sense that they would reverse policy and start that kind of thing late in the season when I don't believe they have done anything like that (on a large scale) in recent memory.

That's where you see problems with the marriage to TSN. TSN loves TNF because they can get a decent rating on a Thursday but it is hurting the league.

Commish Ambrosie has made all the right steps so far but he really has to rein in TSN somewhat and also figure out a way to get games back on the full CTV network, before TSN kills the Golden Goose.

And speaking of the Commish in two months on the job he is really getting his message out there to the big media players. Last time it was CNN, now SI and NFL football writing dean Peter King.

CFL Takes Leadership Position in Football Safety
Peter King The MMQB si.com September 18th, 2017

The Canadian Football League has told its nine franchises that, except for training camp in 2018, full-contact practices will be banned through the end of the 2018 season. Players can wear helmets in practice, but no shoulder pads, and tackling in practice will not be allowed. I talked to the CFL commissioner, former offensive lineman Randy Ambrosie, on Friday about how it came about.

MMQB: How’d you make this happen, especially in-season like this?

Ambrosie: It’s what I can only describe as a magnificent display of partnership between us and the players union. It will give our players more time to recuperate, and stay on the field. There was another part of this, going from [18 games in] 20 weeks to 21 weeks. Because of our nine-team structure, because not all of our teams have access to their facilities at all times, we have had some tight turnarounds on our games. We have now gone to a 21-week schedule, staying at 18 games. It dramatically improves the time players will have to rest and recuperate. One example this year was Ottawa. The Redblacks had three games in 11 days [a Friday-Wednesday-Monday schedule.] That is just way too much football is too tight a time. There is something magnificent and elegant about simplicity. We wanted to do something fairly immediate and avoid the confusion of tackling too many issues at once. It is going to challenge our coaches, who I believe are world-class. It’s going to be different. Coaches begin to wean themselves off padded practices later in the season anyway. We know coaches can go with less, because we’ve seen that in football now anyway. Coaches will adapt. They will find new training techniques.

MMQB: Have you gotten any pushback from football people over the decision?

Ambrosie: I have not had one of those calls at all. We had our [CFL] Hall of Fame inductions last night, and I spoke to a couple of our coaches. They were positive and polite and constructive. I am aware this may have cost me one or two Thanksgiving dinner invitations, but the reaction has been almost entirely positive. It was a quick decision, and some would argue too quick. But when you’re on the doorstep of doing the right thing, quick is good.

MMQB: How much are you concerned about the future of football, with all the issues of head trauma and CTE that have surfaced?

Ambrosie: Talking about player safety is not just words to me. It means very much. The [future of football] has been on my mind throughout this. The more we do together to make this game safer, it will inspire confidence that the game can be played at the safest level. … What I love about the game is it offers the greatest inclusiveness of any game. You can be a gigantic person, super strong, and you can be a small person, super fast, and then in a locker room all these things come together. We need to fight, literally, for the future of football, and we do that by making it safe. I think the battle for the future of the game is one we will win. We’re teaching safer tackling. It’s gonna take us all pushing it. Change is hard. We all know that. The fraternity of football people, we’ll find our way. I’m honored to be part of it.

Just looked to buy my brother in law Jays tickets for next year in Seattle. All 4 games are almost sold out and the remaining tickets start at $216 American.

Generally, if a team claims a near sellout or a noticeably higher turnout than usual without any physical difference in bodies in the stadium. Things like having a lot of youth teams in the stadium scream giveaways. Fury FC and a lot of CHL teams do this. This goes back to the discussion of teams claiming tickets distributed instead of physical bodies through gates.

Because their previous two home games had attendances lower than franchise norms.

Sure. It's all conjecture one way or the other, whether attendance was buffeted by REDBLACKS fans or a sunny afternoon or if 4,000 more Alouettes fans showed up because the team wasn't playing on a Thursday.

The Alouettes do have these unexplained attendance blips from time to time (upward or downward). More so than most other teams it seems.

Not the Ti-cats... regardless of how many empty seats there are, their announced attendance never seems to differ by more than 400-500.

https://i.imgur.com/FUXKgr6.png
Present capacity 23,420

Wasn't Molson Stadium's capacity 25,000 not long ago? Have they covered up some seating due to poor attendances?

IIRC they removed the really crappy west end zone seats... they were basically small portable grandstands that were not elevated at all. Probably not much of a view of the game from there. From what I recall watching on TV, I think they replaced it with a patio/party area.

The stadium has a capacity of 23,420 the result of a renovation project begun in 2009 that increased capacity from 20,202 to over 25,000, before seats were removed in 2014 to reduce capacity to its current level. (Wikipedia)

Edit: Why did I post that, talk about stating the obvious, I believe esquire has it right.

https://i.imgur.com/wV1b1ji.jpg

The graphic you posted didn't include 2016, so i'll include it here for the sake of posterity:

2013: 23,004
2014: 20,679
2015: 21,430
2016: 20,378
2017: 19,523 (after seven home games)

As shown in the graphic, Als haven't had a sub-20K average since 2001, which is right around the last time the Als were pulling games with 18K. 2017 is the first time they've dipped that low for individual games since 2001/2002. Back then, unless i'm mistaken, the capacity was roughly 3K lower, so their 18K in a 20K stadium was higher cap% than today's 18K in a 23K stadium.

Regardless of capacity, sub-20K outings for the Als have been increasing the past few seasons.