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Urbanize_It Jan 24, 2013 6:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 5986037)
Meandering through Laurel, Pacific Highway, and Harbor Drive isn't "very easy to access." The fact is that the 5 is kind of, sort of, not really at all connected to the airport.



Transferring takes time and makes the current trolley link unreasonable. The 992 circulates at an alright pace, but again, its not a popular route and only serves downtown. Also, I don't know if you read the article from the UT this past week, but extending the trolley line to the airport isn't so easy, especially since long term plans call for a complete overhaul of the airports configuration anyways.



Not sure if you have ever ridden the coaster, but it cuts right through MCAS Miramar, and has laid rail that heads towards the main runway already.



The short runway was a major reason for the comprehensive 2006 study on airport relocation, to say otherwise is fooling yourself.



I think you overestimate the SAN's convenience to San Diegans. Yes, you can get to SAN easily from downtown, you can take a bus easily from downtown, you can grab a cab easily from downtown... but downtown isn't centrally located in the county. And SAN isn't easily accessible in itself. A myriad of streets are needed to reach it from the 5. The closest trolley stop is nowhere near its terminals. The coaster passes briskly by SAN's back end. Your "its the most connected location by existing transit" claim is true -and a sad reality.



I do have hope for the 787. But it's still going to be inconvenient when only a select number of international flights will be able to take off and land thanks to the single runway and time constraints on the airport (the airport closes in the late evening, flights don't resume until the early morning).



Rail isn't going to absorb much, especially with High Speed Rail not coming to San Diego until at least 2030, if ever.



I'm from hoebunk north country. Believe me, the day Palomar Airport becomes a major reliever airport for SAN is the day everyone in Carlsbad is relocated to a reservation. I dare you to tell them an additional 3 million people will be commuting through their tree lined avenues to hop on planes flying over their homes. NIMBYism runs rampant up north, Palomar will not be a major player, let alone reliever for SAN.



Yes, a new expensive airport would be wonderfully progressive for a city that has put its head in the sands of Mission Beach for years. A new airport at Miramar would be connected by new trolley and rail lines (needed already as highway congestion only gets worse), would be more centrally located in the county (Miramar is smack dab in the middle and surrounded by nearly every major freeway in the region), and would provide greater access to the international markets than SAN ever will.

But, because people continue to be short sighted (ignorant) or, at the very least, reluctant to give up whats easiest for themselves personally (selfish), SAN will continue to be our flagship airport. San Diego has been run by a host of small thinkers and NIMBY appeasers, and that will not change within the next 50 years.

Agree to disagree on most of your points… Especially the one about central location. Yes, Miramar is a slightly more central location geographically, but not by population, employment or tourism distribution. I do however agree that Miramar would be a sufficient location, but it will not happen in my lifetime. LJ/UTC residents and the Marines have made that abundantly clear. Time to move on.

I personally feel no duty to cater to north county residents. They made the conscious decision to move to BFE and proximity to NOTHING is simply one of the consequences. Again, just my humble opinion. :)

spoonman Jan 24, 2013 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerogt3 (Post 5985724)
It's not "directly" connected but it's very close and very easy to access from the freeway. It's a short cab/bus ride from the trolley, and there are plans to extend trolley service to the airport. In contrast, any proposed alternative is nowhere near the trolley system, and expanding trolley service to a new airport would cost WAY more than connecting SAN. Not to mention SAN has the benefit of being very close to the coaster, which Miramar for example would not.



The short runway is a non-issue. Sure, it prevents fully loaded 747's from landing, but that's an aircraft that would virtually never be landing in SD even if the runway were big enough. I think you underestimate the benefit SAN brings for tourism, conventions, business and to average travelers being SO close to the city. SAN is not just close to downtown, it's the most connected location by existing transit.

Higher capacity aircraft (787, 350), can and will do a lot to expand capacity. If SAN becomes slot restricted airlines will simply load 787's with 250 passangers instead of 737's carrying 120. 30 flights a day are to LA... by 2020 I imagine a lot of that capacity will free up, via shift to rail, consolidation onto larger aircraft, flights from north county, etc. 30 flights a day on a mid size aircraft is 3M passengers a year....

For you a new, expensive, unconnected airport away from the major tourist and population centers is progress, but for the rest of us it's a waste of money.

There have been extensive studies conducted by the SDAA which show that larger aircraft won't make enough of a dent in volume's because SAN already operates high capacity aircrafts relative to other airports.

Also, if moved to Miramar, the airport would be near the North Coast extension of the trolley.

SDfan Jan 25, 2013 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanize_It (Post 5986211)
Agree to disagree on most of your points… Especially the one about central location. Yes, Miramar is a slightly more central location geographically, but not by population, employment or tourism distribution. I do however agree that Miramar would be a sufficient location, but it will not happen in my lifetime. LJ/UTC residents and the Marines have made that abundantly clear. Time to move on.

I personally feel no duty to cater to north county residents. They made the conscious decision to move to BFE and proximity to NOTHING is simply one of the consequences. Again, just my humble opinion. :)

Agree to disagree we shall. :)

Urbanize_It Jan 25, 2013 1:38 AM

Agreed. :) I actually think we should work on improving efficiency and leverage the two other airports we have in our region… Carlsbad and Tijuana. Increase short distance routs from CLD and build the US terminal at TIJ for international flights. I already fly out of TIJ when going anywhere in Mexico and I think this could be expanded to at least all of Central and South America. Besides, anyone who flies a lot knows how inconvenient mega-airports are. They are necessary in mid-contentment hubs or major international ports like NY and LA, but here it would just be a waste and make the average short haul commuter (like me) very unhappy. Maybe I would be singing a different tune if I commuted to Asia or Europe instead of regionally, but I doubt it.

SDfan Jan 25, 2013 6:10 AM

Through my sleuthing the internet, I found this tower proposal:

La Jolla Centre III by Irvine Company - 15 stories
http://www.examiner.com/article/irvi...a-office-tower

Now, as for the Cisterra development north of Petco (15 story office tower proposal), I'm about 90% sure that site is where the Cosmopolitan condominium project (40 stories) was going to go. So it's safe to assume that Cosmo is dead and that when the economy does pick up an office tower is lurking in the shadows.

Now the Kearny Mesa project by Sunroad was a 8 story building last I saw, so I'm not sure if that project would have to be amended in order to accommodate Sempra, although I'm sure they'd have to make it somewhat bigger.

SDfan Jan 25, 2013 6:14 AM

In this article you can see the proposed UTC condominium tower in the background of the new UTC trolley station being designed right now.

http://www.sdnews.com/view/full_stor...home_main_ljvn

SDfan Jan 25, 2013 6:43 AM

PS, does anyone know anything about Monte Verde in UTC? It was the two 34-story, two 35-story project proposed by Costa Verde developers. I know it was reduced in height (of course...) to a 23, two-22, and 21 story development, but I only heard rumors that it was approved or not.

PLEASE, I need info. Gracias.

aerogt3 Jan 25, 2013 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 5986037)
Meandering through Laurel, Pacific Highway, and Harbor Drive isn't "very easy to access." The fact is that the 5 is kind of, sort of, not really at all connected to the airport. Transferring takes time and makes the current trolley link unreasonable. The 992 circulates at an alright pace, but again, its not a popular route and only serves downtown.

The 5 is 300m from the end of the runway.... whether coming from 5N or 5S it takes exactly 1 offramp followed by 1 right turn to get through the airport. You deal with a few stoplights, not a difficult "meandering" journey. And transferring is less time than going to miramar... where you would likely still need to transfer. I take the 992, which runs very frequently, and downtown is loaded with trolley stations. I don't really see the problem. Getting from a trolley station near SAN is no harder than getting from airport parking to SAN. And it is a lot easier, and orders of magnitude cheaper, to access SAN with the trolley than any new airport.

Quote:

The short runway was a major reason for the comprehensive 2006 study on airport relocation, to say otherwise is fooling yourself.
CAPACITY was the main reason for the study, and the only place where there is room for debate. On runway length and convenient location, SAN wings. And look even with capacity considerations, the airport is still there.... airlines want more landing slots in the future, not runways big enough for fully laden 747-8's. If the runway was big enough for 747's, how many do you realistically think would land there? Probably almost none. Shifting the 30 flights to LA to rail, and advances in aviation itself (787/350), are going to increase capacity by a lot in the future.

Quote:

I think you overestimate the SAN's convenience to San Diegans. Yes, you can get to SAN easily from downtown, you can take a bus easily from downtown, you can grab a cab easily from downtown... but downtown isn't centrally located in the county.
You overestimate the importance of north county travelers, business travelers, and tourists. Business traffic is 44% of all trips! I am CERTAIN those pax would prefer the existing location. 55% of traffic to SD is visitor... I would argue most visit central SD. Business and visitors will clearly prefer lingberg, so the only group on the fence is non-business local passengers, which are a minority, and even then just by the layout of the city I would guess they prefer SAN where it is. Source here

For tourist, convention, and business travelers, core SD is all that matters and those are important groups. the airport is central as possible to probably 95% fo business, convention, and tourist activity. And look at a map of SD, lindberg is literally central to the entire county if you exclude north of the 56. Basically, north county suburbia is left out, and they'd still have to drive to miramar anyways. I don't see the point of moving the airport out of the city's dense core so people from Escondido (what percentage of flyers do they represent?) can shave their 45 mile drive down to 35.

Quote:

I do have hope for the 787. But it's still going to be inconvenient when only a select number of international flights will be able to take off and land thanks to the single runway and time constraints on the airport (the airport closes in the late evening, flights don't resume until the early morning).
Runway length is not limiting international flights (see 777 to LHR or 787 to Tokyo), except large long haul flights that likely would not come to SD anyways. Also, I fly long haul a LOT, and I have never had a long haul flight during the hours SAN does not permit.

Quote:

Rail isn't going to absorb much, especially with High Speed Rail not coming to San Diego until at least 2030, if ever.
Consolidating 30 flights on small prop plane to 5-10 on 737's, Palomar, plus rail, etc. will when combined. Once landing slots are full, as demand for capacity increases, aircraft landing into SAN will start to carry more passengers. Simple ;) SAN is close to capacity for aircraft movements, but not in terms of passengers. 65% of landings are 100-150 seats, and a further 21% are under 100.... in time those 30 seat turboprops will be replaced by 737, 757, 787, etc. Each daily round trip on which a regional is replaced with say a 787, is 160,000 more passengers a year. This comes from the same study, which is admittedly old.

Quote:

A new airport at Miramar would be connected by new trolley and rail lines (needed already as highway congestion only gets worse), would be more centrally located in the county (Miramar is smack dab in the middle and surrounded by nearly every major freeway in the region), and would provide greater access to the international markets than SAN ever will.
International markets are not limited by the bloody airport!!! They are limited by demand and economic conditions. 777 and 787 are perfectly capable of flying to pretty much all of the destinations airlines would ever want to serve from san diego. Sure, SAN to SYD can't happen because of the airport, but the market for that flight will never exist in SD, it's too small.

A new airport at miramar would cost BILLIONS, as would the trolley lines which no one would ride except for the airport (there is a reason all realistic proposed lines aren't to miramar.) What do you get for those billions? Basically it's closer to a few at the expense of further from many.

Quote:

But, because people continue to be short sighted (ignorant) or, at the very least, reluctant to give up whats easiest for themselves personally (selfish)
Says the north county guy who wants the airport moved further from 3million people in the densest part of the city, and closer to himself and the 500k residing in its most scarcely populated, far reaching corners. And mirarmar wasn't defeated by NIMBY's, it was defeated in every city in the county, including those which stood only to gain and not lose, according to the UTSD.

Carlsbad and Encinitas (51 percent “no”), Solana Beach (53 percent), San Marcos and National City (54 percent), Oceanside (55 percent), Vista (56 percent), Chula Vista and Escondido (57 percent), Del Mar (62 percent), La Mesa (63 percent), Imperial Beach (64 percent), El Cajon and San Diego (65 percent) Lemon Grove and Coronado (66 percent), Poway (74 percent) and Santee (75 percent).

Bertrice Jan 25, 2013 4:19 PM

http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws....w_apts_007.JPGI know its not downtown but others post stuff not there either. this is in my neck of the woods.

High end, mixed-used project taking shape in Crown Point
by Marsha Kay Seff 8 days ago | 2207 views | 0 | 4 | |

view slideshow (2 images)
After languishing on the market for the last two years, the old Union 76 gas station property at Ingraham Street and La Playa Avenue in Crown Point is under development. Rising from the site is The Point at Ingraham, a high-end, urban-design, mixed-use project.

At three stories, the apartments and commercial space that will add up to 35,000 square feet will house 21 apartments and 2,266 square feet of retail space, possibly with a café and drycleaners. The lot, which measures 22,500 square feet, will include 45 parking spaces behind the building, plus room for bicycles inside and out.

Brothers Russell and Scott Murfey, native San Diegans who live in Pacific Beach and who have an office kitty corner to the project, are the developers under their Veritas Urban Properties through Murfey Construction. The Murfeys bought the property from Loma La Jolla LLC for $1.2 million.

The Point will include nine two-bedroom apartments, 11 one-bedrooms and one studio. The Murfeys haven’t firmed up any deals for the commercial space, but they said there has been “quite a bit of interest.” The goal is to be finished with the project by the end of this year.

“I believe Pacific Beach needs higher-quality apartment buildings,” said Russell Murfey. “We’re excited to bring this product to the market because it’s different from anything out there.”

He said the current trend in Pacific Beach is for young people to come and enjoy the benefits of the beach for awhile and then leave, because there are not enough high-quality rentals.

“We believe there’s room for hard-working people who want to stay in PB,” said Russell Murfey.

He sees his renters as Generation Y, who are out of school with well-paying first or second jobs, maybe with children, looking for good, entry-level housing.

The brothers, who have built other mixed-use products around San Diego, currently are also building a 4,000-square-foot home on the water in La Jolla Shores.

Murfey said The Point apartment rates will be competitive with nearby complexes, including Avalon at Mission Bay next door, and the new apartments will include such luxury aspects like hard-surface countertops and European cabinetry and 18-foot ceilings in the commercial space.

Murfey said neighbors have been enthusiastic.

Joe Splendorio, bar manager at Rocky’s Crown Pub, kitty corner to the project, said he believes the project will help business “if there’s no retail.” He’s also a bit worried about parking.

Sal Yacoub, owner of the VP Racing gas station across the street, also sees advantages.

“It’s going to be better than it is now,” he said.

But he, too, worries about parking for the new businesses and traffic from the new project’ exits, even though he concedes many customers will be walking anyway. Being a businessman, Yacoub said he’s negotiating on renting a space in the complex for a food court.

Murfey said neighbors shouldn’t worry about parking issues.

“There are plenty of parking spaces; one per bedroom, three for guests and 13 for commercial,” he said. “That’s more than required by city code. We pulled the retail back from the corner with an outdoor patio and a seat-wall as a public amenity for social gatherings.”

Murfey described himself and his brother as locals who want to do the right thing.

“PB has a lot of room to grow into an incredible beach area that’s not just for college kids,” he said “… We’re part of the community and want to be cohesive with Crown Point and Pacific Beach, including our neighbors.”

• Veritas Urban Properties, 1571 La Playa Ave; www.veritasurban.com

Derek Jan 25, 2013 7:24 PM

I don't understand this whole airport debate. The fact that the airport is right next to downtown sucks, period. Who cares if it's "central" and "near the core"? Almost every large city airport is located far from their city's center, and they're all doing just fine.

Leo the Dog Jan 25, 2013 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bertrice (Post 5987455)
http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws....w_apts_007.JPG
“I believe Pacific Beach needs higher-quality apartment buildings,” said Russell Murfey. “We’re excited to bring this product to the market because it’s different from anything out there.”

He said the current trend in Pacific Beach is for young people to come and enjoy the benefits of the beach for awhile and then leave, because there are not enough high-quality rentals.

“We believe there’s room for hard-working people who want to stay in PB,” said Russell Murfey.

He sees his renters as Generation Y, who are out of school with well-paying first or second jobs, maybe with children, looking for good, entry-level housing.

Murfey said The Point apartment rates will be competitive with nearby complexes, including Avalon at Mission Bay next door, and the new apartments will include such luxury aspects like hard-surface countertops and European cabinetry and 18-foot ceilings in the commercial.

“PB has a lot of room to grow into an incredible beach area that’s not just for college kids,” he said “… We’re part of the community and want to be cohesive with Crown Point and Pacific Beach, including our neighbors.”

• Veritas Urban Properties, 1571 La Playa Ave; www.veritasurban.com

Avalon apartments is ground zero for the negative stereotype associated with PB. I hope the city one day decides to condemn Bay Point and Avalon and redevelop this incredible piece of real estate.

I'm excited for this corner. This will be a great addition to PB/Crown Point. It's time PB matures and grows. I agree with the developers on this point.

kpexpress Jan 26, 2013 6:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 5984695)
Does anyone know anything about these office tower proposals?


???

I worked on one of them. It's a sick building located a block north of Petco Park.

SDfan Jan 26, 2013 7:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpexpress (Post 5988469)
I worked on one of them. It's a sick building located a block north of Petco Park.

At the site where cosmo was supposed to go right? What is the height? Details kpexpress, details! (please and thank you).

kpexpress Jan 26, 2013 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 5988480)
At the site where cosmo was supposed to go right? What is the height? Details kpexpress, details! (please and thank you).

you're correct on the site. The project details technically are still confidential. I can be vague and tell you that it's a very nice high rise office building, huge observation deck cutout of the top, very nice curtain wall, touches the ground elegantly, public plazas and nice adaptive reuse of the context buildings.

With the exposure Sempra will get from having their logo in the outfield of every Padres game they'd be dumb not to move.

Derek Jan 26, 2013 11:52 AM

Hopefully it's around the 480 foot mark. ;)

SDfan Jan 26, 2013 4:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpexpress (Post 5988512)
you're correct on the site. The project details technically are still confidential. I can be vague and tell you that it's a very nice high rise office building, huge observation deck cutout of the top, very nice curtain wall, touches the ground elegantly, public plazas and nice adaptive reuse of the context buildings.

With the exposure Sempra will get from having their logo in the outfield of every Padres game they'd be dumb not to move.

Sounds pleasant. Thank you. And Derek, if its going to be 15 stories, I assume its not going to be even at 300'. :(

spoonman Jan 26, 2013 7:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SDfan (Post 5988693)
Sounds pleasant. Thank you. And Derek, if its going to be 15 stories, I assume its not going to be even at 300'. :(

The DiamondView office bldg at Petco is 15 floors, so I imagine it will be of smilar statue and height. I'm glad for more office in the area, but 15 floors, versus the 40 floors that Cosmo was going to be is disapointing. Wish we could get a new office tower over 30+ floors...it's been a while since one has been built

Derek Jan 26, 2013 10:01 PM

Oh man, I missed the 15 story part. :(

mello Jan 26, 2013 10:04 PM

Or how about this amazing concept for that site that I saw tons of in Sydney..... MIXED USE!!!!! I don't understand why San Diego can not grasp this.... How about 15 floors of office with 15 to 20 of residential on top? I'm sure Seattle is doing some of this, Vancouver, etc. Wake up little SD we are a big city now too :shrug:

easy as pie Jan 26, 2013 10:35 PM

a question: is there a post like the thread opener that has an updated (2013) summary of projects u/c, approved and proposed? i'd love to get a sense of sd's recovery, considering the absolute epic boom in the pre-crash.


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