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New Brisavoine Feb 12, 2014 7:09 PM

European economy - Économie européenne - Europäische Wirtschaft
 
The French statistical office INSEE has just published the regional GDP figures for 2012. I'll add other European countries later.

Real GDP growth in 2012:
- French Guiana: +3.3%
- Corsica: +2.0%
- Picardy: +0.8%
- La Réunion: +0.7%
- Aquitaine: +0.7%
- Guadeloupe: +0.6%
- Rhône-Alpes: +0.5%
- Midi-Pyrénées: +0.3%
- Pays de la Loire: +0.2%
- Brittany: +0.2%
- Paris Region: +0.1%
- Lower Normandy: +0.1%
- Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur: +0.1%
- Poitou-Charentes: +0.0%
- Martinique: +0.0%
- Nord-Pas-de-Calais: +0.0%
- Languedoc-Roussillon: -0.1%
- Auvergne: -0.2%
- Burgundy: -0.3%
- Alsace: -0.4%
- Centre: -0.4%
- Limousin: -0.5%
- Lorraine: -1.0%
- Champagne-Ardenne: -1.0%
- Upper Normandy: -1.4%
- Franche-Comté: -1.6%

A map:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2d9u68g.png

New Brisavoine Feb 14, 2014 8:02 PM

This graph shows the evolution of the GDP per capita in Germany, France, the UK, and Spain every year since 2007, based on the latest figures published this week. I've also added the United States for comparison. This is the evolution of *real* GDP per capita, i.e. after inflation is deducted.

In 2013, the average inhabitant of Germany was 4.4% better off than in 2007, and the average inhabitant of the USA was 1.0% better off than in 2007. The average inhabitant of France was 2.2% worse off than in 2007, while the average inhabitant of the UK was 5.5% worse off, and the average inhabitant of Spain was 8.6% worse off.

http://i58.tinypic.com/34do5yr.png

New Brisavoine Mar 4, 2014 10:44 PM

Enlarging the map in post #1, I've added the German, Spanish, and Italian regions. For the UK, we don't have the 2012 regional growth rates yet, so I've indicated the national growth rate of the whole UK instead.

10 fastest growing regions in 2012:
- French Guiana: +3.3%
- Corsica: +2.0%

- Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania: +1.9%
- City-State of Berlin: +1.2%
- City-State of Hamburg: +1.2%
- City-State of Bremen: +1.2%
- Hesse: +0.9%
- Lower Saxony: +0.9%
- Schleswig-Holstein: +0.9%
- Rhineland-Palatinate: +0.9%


10 fastest declining regions in 2012:
- Liguria: -2.9%
- Apulia: -3.0%
- Marche: -3.1%
- Umbria: -3.1%
- Castile- La Mancha: -3.1%
- Calabria: -3.2%
- Sardinia: -3.4%
- Aosta Valley: -3.5%
- Basilicata: -3.6%
- Sicily: -3.8%


The contrast between the sister islands of Corsica and Sardinia is striking.

http://i57.tinypic.com/wvpeyu.png

Lear Mar 6, 2014 7:24 PM

I´m afraid the data-color scheme of the map is of no use.
The colors follow no logic (dark-bright). The map therefore can´t be read properly ….

Minato Ku Mar 6, 2014 8:56 PM

I don't see the problem with the colors, I find it pretty understandable at least if you read the legend.
Green = positive growth , Red = negative growth.
Maybe it is the black that disturbs you?

New Brisavoine Mar 7, 2014 12:30 AM

The color scheme is simple:
GREEN :ohyeah:
WHITE :sleep:

RED :no:
BLACK :dead:

I'll try to make a cumulative one from 2008 to 2012, which is more significant than a single year.

New Brisavoine Mar 7, 2014 2:42 PM

Ok, here is the map showing cumulative GDP growth rates (inflation deflated) in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012. For the UK this is the cumulative GDP growth rates of the entire country, since we don't have regional figures for 2012 yet.

The regions in green had reached and passed their pre-crisis peak by 2012. The white regions were not far from their pre-crisis peak in 2012. The red regions were still quite some way from their pre-crisis peak, and the black regions were beyond despair.

10 fastest growing regions from 2008 to 2012:
- French Guiana: +17.8% (i.e. in 2012 the French Guianese economy produced 17.8% more goods and services than in 2007, after deflating inflation)
- Corsica: +10.9%
- City-State of Berlin: +9.4%
- Bavaria: +6.3%
- Paris Region (Île-de-France): +6.0%
- Lower Saxony: +5.7%
- City-State of Hamburg: +5.1%
- Brandenburg: +5.0%
- Schleswig-Holstein: +4.9%
- Rhineland-Palatinate: +4.5%


10 fastest declining regions from 2008 to 2012:
- Valencian Community: -8.6%
- Limousin : -8.6%
- Apulia: -9.3%
- Calabria: -9.8%
- Marche: -10.0%
- Umbria: -10.6%
- Basilicata: -10.8%
- Campania: -11.0%
- Sicily: -11.2%
- Molise: -14.3%


http://i60.tinypic.com/28s21yq.png

New Brisavoine Mar 8, 2014 4:25 PM

+ Benelux.

None of the Benelux regions make it in the top 10 or bottom 10. Noticeably, Wallonia has fared better than Flanders during this global crisis. The Netherlands have fared rather poorly. The North Netherlands region is in the green, but that's only because of the gas fields in Groningen (Friesland and Drenthe are in fact in light red).

http://i58.tinypic.com/14mdpnp.png

New Brisavoine Mar 14, 2014 5:16 PM

Here are the GDP per capita of the European countries based on the latest PPP valuations (International Comparison Program 2011) and the latest population figures.

Three countries in particular have moved significantly up and down the ranking:
- Germany: moved up the ranking due to the 2011 census which showed that the German population was lower than previously estimated
- UK: moved down the ranking due to a- high inflation after 2008 which has reduced the PPP value of the sterling pound, and b- the 2011 census which showed that the population of the UK was higher than previously estimated
- Russia: moved up the ranking because the PPP value of the rubble has been revised up by ICP 2011

GDP per capita at PPP value in 2012:
- Norway: 64,321 US dollars
- Switzerland: 51,365
- Austria: 43,692
- Ireland: 43,231
- Netherlands: 43,020
- Germany: 42,573
- Denmark: 42,503
- Sweden: 42,267
- Belgium: 40,296
- Iceland: 39,890
- Finland: 39,119
- France: 36,777 (Metropolitan France: 37,184)
- UK: 35,134
- Italy: 34,299
- Spain: 31,210

- Malta: 29,258
- Slovenia: 27,492
- Czech Republic: 27,009
- Slovakia: 26,030
- Russia: 25,268
- Estonia: 24,809
- Portugal: 24,807
- Greece: 24,763
- Lithuania: 23,970
- Hungary: 22,986
- Poland: 22,744
- Latvia: 21,906
- Croatia: 19,742
- Romania: 18,193
- Bulgaria: 16,090
- Montenegro: 14,280
- Serbia: 12,507
- Macedonia: 11,918
- Bosnia: 9,375
- Albania: 9,146

New Brisavoine May 20, 2014 6:38 PM

Evolution of real GDP quarter by quarter, seasonally adjusted, from the start of the global crisis until Q1 2014.

Allemagne = Germany
Pays-Bas = Netherlands

http://i59.tinypic.com/29c78lz.png

Lear May 23, 2014 1:05 PM

Swiss Economy Ranking:
The World's Most Competitive Countries - Forbes

1. U.S.A. (1)
2. Switzerland (2)
3. Singapore (4)
4. Hong Kong (3)
5. Sweden (4)
6. Germany (9)
7. Canada (7)
8. UAE (8)
9. Denmark (12)
10. Norway (6)

Lear Jun 27, 2014 6:03 PM

Germans reject their joyless image to become Europe's optimists
A survey shows more than half are satisfied with their lives and think positively about their employment prospects


Quote:

According to the report by the German Economic Institute in Cologne, more than half of all German citizens are extremely satisfied with their lives, and only 2% describe their level of contentment as low.

Researchers said that comparably high levels in Germany were recorded only twice previously: at the time of reunification in 1989-90 and during the new-economy boom at the turn of the century.
http://bilder.bild.de/fotos-skaliert...h=554.bild.jpg

New Brisavoine Jul 26, 2014 7:11 PM

We now have the final estimates of the 2011 GDP per capita for the main metro areas of Germany, France, and the UK. The results of the 2011 censuses, which have now all been published, have greatly changed the GDP per capita of the German and British metro areas: the GDP per capita of the German metro areas were boosted due to a lower German population than was previously thought, whereas those of the British metro areas were cut down due to a higher population in the UK than was previously thought.

For France it is not possible to give the GDP per capita of the Lille metro area, because the Nord department is much larger than the Lille metro area. The figures for Bordeaux and Lyon in the list correspond precisely to the metro areas (I've included the parts of the Lyon metro area located outside of the Rhône department, and excluded the part of the Gironde department that is not within the Bordeaux metro area). For Nice, it's not possible to distinguish Nice from Monaco, due to the commuter flows between the Alpes-Maritimes department and the Principality of Monaco.

GDP per capita in 2011 (in US dollars, at market exchange rates, not at purchasing power parity):
- Munich metro area: 71,460
- Paris Region: 71,307
- Rhine-Main metro area (Frankfurt-Wiesbaden-Mainz): 60,332
- Stuttgart metro area: 57,832
- Hamburg metro area: 57,036

- Greater London + 6 home counties: 54,802
- Lyon metro area: 50,738
- Rhine-Ruhr metro area (Essen-Düsseldorf-Cologne): 47,914
- Edinburgh metro area: 47,913
- Nice-Monaco (Alpes-Maritimes + Principality of Monaco): 47,763 (figure heavily weighed down by the numerous retirees living in the area)
- Toulouse metro area: 46,729

GERMANY (entire country): 45,293
- Bristol metro area: 44,793
- Marseille metro area: 44,582
- Bordeaux metro area: 43,251
FRANCE (entire country): 42,812

- Berlin metro area: 39,046
UK (entire country): 38,964
- Glasgow metro area: 35,278
- West Yorkshire metro area (Leeds-Bradford): 34,463
- Manchester metro area: 34,255
- Newcastle metro area: 33,287
- Birmingham metro area: ca. 32,000
- Liverpool metro area: 29,783
- South Yorkshire metro area (Sheffield-Doncaster): 27,593

New Brisavoine Jul 27, 2014 12:03 PM

+ Italian and Spanish metro areas, based on the results of the 2011 censuses (this has boosted a little bit the GDP per capita of the Italian metro areas, since the census showed the population of Italy was lower than previously thought).

GDP per capita in 2011 (in US dollars, at market exchange rates, not at purchasing power parity):
- Munich metro area: 71,460
- Paris Region: 71,307
- Rhine-Main metro area (Frankfurt-Wiesbaden-Mainz): 60,332
- Stuttgart metro area: 57,832
- Hamburg metro area: 57,036

- Greater London + 6 home counties: 54,802
- Milan metro area: 52,105
- Lyon metro area: 50,738
- Rhine-Ruhr metro area (Essen-Düsseldorf-Cologne): 47,914
- Edinburgh metro area: 47,913
- Nice-Monaco (Alpes-Maritimes + Principality of Monaco): 47,763 (figure heavily weighed down by the numerous retirees living in the area)
- Toulouse metro area: 46,729

GERMANY (entire country): 45,293
- Rome metro area: 45,210
- Bristol metro area: 44,793
- Marseille metro area: 44,582
- Bordeaux metro area: 43,251
- Florence metro area: 42,922
FRANCE (entire country): 42,812

- Turin province: 42,192
- Madrid province: 40,940
- Berlin metro area: 39,046
- Bilbao province: 39,039
UK (entire country): 38,964
ITALY (entire country): 37,025
- Barcelona province: 35,861
- Glasgow metro area: 35,278
- West Yorkshire metro area (Leeds-Bradford): 34,463
- Manchester metro area: 34,255
- Newcastle metro area: 33,287
- Birmingham metro area: ca. 32,000
SPAIN (entire country): 31,173
- Liverpool metro area: 29,783
- Valencia province: 28,827
- South Yorkshire metro area (Sheffield-Doncaster): 27,593

- Palermo province: 25,549
- Naples metro area: 22,150

mousquet Jul 27, 2014 6:45 PM

^ There was an atmosphere of some sort of slight recover in France in 2010/11. I think we'll be somewhat going down as for those figures as of 2012, won't we? :notacrook::rolleyes: Praise Mr Hollande and the wonderful French socialist family.

New Brisavoine Jul 27, 2014 7:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mousquet (Post 6671291)
I think we'll be somewhat going down as for those figures as of 2012, won't we?

No. GDP per capita doesn't change dramatically in just one or two years.

New Brisavoine Aug 6, 2014 12:28 PM

+ the Beneluxian metro areas, based on the results of the 2011 censuses.

GDP per capita in 2011 (in US dollars, at market exchange rates, not at purchasing power parity):
- Munich metro area: 71,460
- Paris Region: 71,307
- Brussels-Capital + Flemish & Walloon Brabant: 64,322
- Rhine-Main metro area (Frankfurt-Wiesbaden-Mainz): 60,332
- Antwerp arrondissement: 58,318
- Stuttgart metro area: 57,832
- Hamburg metro area: 57,036

- Greater London + 6 home counties: 54,802
- Randstad (Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam, Utrecht): 52,537
- Milan metro area: 52,105
- Lyon metro area: 50,738
THE NETHERLANDS (entire country): 49,968
- Rhine-Ruhr metro area (Essen-Düsseldorf-Cologne): 47,914
- Edinburgh metro area: 47,913
- Nice-Monaco (Alpes-Maritimes + Principality of Monaco): 47,763 (figure heavily weighed down by the numerous retirees living in the area)
- Toulouse metro area: 46,729

BELGIUM (entire country): 46,539
GERMANY (entire country): 45,293
- Rome metro area: 45,210
- Bristol metro area: 44,793
- Marseille metro area: 44,582
- Bordeaux metro area: 43,251
- Florence metro area: 42,922
FRANCE (entire country): 42,812

- Turin province: 42,192
- Madrid province: 40,940
- Berlin metro area: 39,046
- Bilbao province: 39,039
UK (entire country): 38,964
- Liège arrondissement: 37,892
ITALY (entire country): 37,025
- Barcelona province: 35,861
- Glasgow metro area: 35,278
- West Yorkshire metro area (Leeds-Bradford): 34,463
- Manchester metro area: 34,255
- Newcastle metro area: 33,287
- Birmingham metro area: ca. 32,000
SPAIN (entire country): 31,173
- Liverpool metro area: 29,783
- Valencia province: 28,827
- South Yorkshire metro area (Sheffield-Doncaster): 27,593

- Palermo province: 25,549
- Naples metro area: 22,150

mousquet Aug 6, 2014 2:44 PM

^ :) Good compiling as usual, Bris. Could you get any data about the Lille metro area? I'm curious because of course, some - namely local baroness Mrs Aubry and her followers - call Nord-Pas-de-Calais and Picardy "poor" at the suggestion to merge them, whereas it's apparently a pretty good idea. Even locals would find it relevant, I heard. It's seemingly much better than a Champagne + Picardy oddity anyway, and would be perfect if Picardy could split in the process so that the Oise département joins us in the Paris region. I saw Minato was a loud backer of that more accurate territorial reshaping too. I agree, that would be the most convenient (and quite possibly a good deal for us in Paris :D) since Beauvais's growing international airport mainly serves metro Paris.

Oh, for those on here who wouldn't know, the northernmost areas of France are just like Wallonia in neighboring Belgium, still struggling from the loss of old mining and various heavy industries, thus supposedly somewhat slower than other regions in France indeed. That's also supposed to be only transitional, however. And BTW, it'd be good for everyone if it didn't take forever for them to move on...

New Brisavoine Aug 6, 2014 11:29 PM

^^There are no data for the Lille metro area, as I explained a few posts above.

New Brisavoine Aug 6, 2014 11:30 PM

The Belgian divide:

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/174202Belgique.png

mousquet Aug 7, 2014 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine (Post 6682794)
^^There are no data for the Lille metro area, as I explained a few posts above.

My bad. I had seen earlier and forgot because you brought the Benelux. Thank you again for that painful map of Belgium... Um, I'm eventually wondering whether our own government shouldn't try something cool for Wallonia, like some incentive of some kind to set up businesses over there somehow. Of course this is not our country, huh, but... I just like Brussels to speak French. I mean we've got a Canadian-like mess just 200km north of Paris right there, and it's even worse than Canada. :( That sucks.

New Brisavoine Aug 7, 2014 9:17 PM

More GDP per capita divides.

http://i62.tinypic.com/2e14pl5.png

mousquet Aug 7, 2014 10:41 PM

Ok. Not entitled to comment on what our neighbors do after all, but what causes such an outrageous gap in France has been well known for ages. Something called jacobinisme/centralisme that a whole bunch of officials feeling dependent on the system as it's been for so long won't change anyhow. And that's not the fault of people from metro Paris in particular, huh. Just saying for foreigners or even some of us French who'd blame on people from Île-de-France. That'd be unfair too. Obviously, entire France is responsible for the French governance system and that shameful, painful gap it brought about.

New Brisavoine Aug 9, 2014 1:03 AM

+ the Scandinavian metro areas.

GDP per capita in 2011 (in US dollars, at market exchange rates, not at purchasing power parity):
- Oslo metro area: between $84,000 and $94,000 (depending on the definition of the metro area)
- Stockholm County: $78,301
- Munich metro area: 71,460
- Paris Region: 71,307
- Copenhagen metro area: $70,128
- Helsinki-Uusimaa Region: $64,385
- Brussels-Capital + Flemish & Walloon Brabant: 64,322
- Rhine-Main metro area (Frankfurt-Wiesbaden-Mainz): 60,332
- Antwerp arrondissement: 58,318
- Stuttgart metro area: 57,832
- Hamburg metro area: 57,036

- Greater London + 6 home counties: 54,802
- Randstad (Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam, Utrecht): 52,537
- Milan metro area: 52,105
- Lyon metro area: 50,738
THE NETHERLANDS (entire country): 49,968
- Rhine-Ruhr metro area (Essen-Düsseldorf-Cologne): 47,914
- Edinburgh metro area: 47,913
- Nice-Monaco (Alpes-Maritimes + Principality of Monaco): 47,763 (figure heavily weighed down by the numerous retirees living in the area)
- Toulouse metro area: 46,729

BELGIUM (entire country): 46,539
GERMANY (entire country): 45,293
- Rome metro area: 45,210
- Bristol metro area: 44,793
- Marseille metro area: 44,582
- Bordeaux metro area: 43,251
- Florence metro area: 42,922
FRANCE (entire country): 42,812

- Turin province: 42,192
- Madrid province: 40,940
- Berlin metro area: 39,046
- Bilbao province: 39,039
UK (entire country): 38,964
- Liège arrondissement: 37,892
ITALY (entire country): 37,025
- Barcelona province: 35,861
- Glasgow metro area: 35,278
- West Yorkshire metro area (Leeds-Bradford): 34,463
- Manchester metro area: 34,255
- Newcastle metro area: 33,287
- Birmingham metro area: ca. 32,000
SPAIN (entire country): 31,173
- Liverpool metro area: 29,783
- Valencia province: 28,827
- South Yorkshire metro area (Sheffield-Doncaster): 27,593

- Palermo province: 25,549
- Naples metro area: 22,150

mousquet Aug 10, 2014 9:24 AM

Do the Swedes have any large amount of oil and natural gas (:yuck:) like Norway does? Nope. They owe their wealth to their brains only. So this goes to Stockholm and not to Oslo: :cheers:

mousquet Aug 10, 2014 11:19 AM

I might add that in France, Lyon's doing just as good as anyone could outside Paris in this country that's backward to some respects. If decentralization was eventually taken to a serious level in France, you'd see quite a couple of French metro areas emerge to compete with the capital on the international stage. Lyon would definitely be the most aggressive of them as shown by that only figure of GDP per capita. Their aggressiveness must even be remarkable in that rather anti-business environment, in a country where you've got to be enduring to do business, where people to help you in doing so are too few, and those to nastily deter you from it too many, especially in the public bureaucracy. We'll have to repeat that over and over, till the ugly is defeated.

New Brisavoine Aug 10, 2014 12:01 PM

+ the metro areas of Porto, Lisbon, Dublin, and Vienna.

Porto is shockingly poor! Dublin has the highest GDP per capita in the British Isles, ahead of London (and also Aberdeen, I've checked, despite the oil there).

GDP per capita in 2011 (in US dollars, at market exchange rates, not at purchasing power parity):
- Oslo metro area: between $84,000 and $94,000 (depending on the definition of the metro area)
- Stockholm County: $78,301
- Munich metro area: 71,460
- Paris Region: 71,307
- Copenhagen metro area: $70,128
- Helsinki-Uusimaa Region: $64,385
- Brussels-Capital + Flemish & Walloon Brabant: 64,322
- Dublin metro area: 62,406
- Rhine-Main metro area (Frankfurt-Wiesbaden-Mainz): 60,332
- Vienna metro area: 58,836
- Antwerp arrondissement: 58,318
- Stuttgart metro area: 57,832
- Hamburg metro area: 57,036

- Greater London + 6 home counties: 54,802
- Randstad (Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam, Utrecht): 52,537
- Milan metro area: 52,105
- Lyon metro area: 50,738
THE NETHERLANDS (entire country): 49,968
AUSTRIA (entire country): 49,566
ÉIRE (entire country): 49,344
- Rhine-Ruhr metro area (Essen-Düsseldorf-Cologne): 47,914
- Edinburgh metro area: 47,913
- Nice-Monaco (Alpes-Maritimes + Principality of Monaco): 47,763 (figure heavily weighed down by the numerous retirees living in the area)
- Toulouse metro area: 46,729

BELGIUM (entire country): 46,539
GERMANY (entire country): 45,293
- Rome metro area: 45,210
- Bristol metro area: 44,793
- Marseille metro area: 44,582
- Bordeaux metro area: 43,251
- Florence metro area: 42,922
FRANCE (entire country): 42,812

- Turin province: 42,192
- Madrid province: 40,940
- Berlin metro area: 39,046
- Bilbao province: 39,039
UK (entire country): 38,964
- Liège arrondissement: 37,892
ITALY (entire country): 37,025
- Barcelona province: 35,861
- Glasgow metro area: 35,278
- West Yorkshire metro area (Leeds-Bradford): 34,463
- Manchester metro area: 34,255
- Newcastle metro area: 33,287
- Birmingham metro area: ca. 32,000
- Lisbon metro area: 31,333
SPAIN (entire country): 31,173
- Liverpool metro area: 29,783
- Valencia province: 28,827
- South Yorkshire metro area (Sheffield-Doncaster): 27,593

- Palermo province: 25,549
PORTUGAL (entire country): 22,570
- Naples metro area: 22,150

- Porto metro area: 19,634

Crawford Aug 10, 2014 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine (Post 6683995)
More GDP per capita divides.

http://i62.tinypic.com/2e14pl5.png

East Germany is as rich as non-Parisian France? Wow.

Minato Ku Aug 11, 2014 6:41 AM

I was surprised as well by the GDP per capita of East Germany.
While the figure is also helped by the fact that Berlin is a large part of East Germany population and economy, this is still higher than what I through.
Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine (Post 6686230)
Porto is shockingly poor!

I find Naples worse when compared with the average of Italy.

mousquet Aug 11, 2014 3:32 PM

:shrug: I don't find eastern Germany's results surprising. Again, part of the explanation is that overall, France isn't doing as good as one normally informed would expect, which is not only a French embarrassment but also a potential problem to our partners all around, such as Spain and Germany itself whose France is a major customer. And of course, Eastern Europe has been growing since Soviet Union collapsed. That's been for 25 years! So where would be any surprise? Really, the time when we won't laugh at countries like Poland anymore shouldn't be too long from now.

I think the most amazing in there is the Irish case. People over here say it was still like really poor just 30 years ago. I can remember that astonished me indeed the 1st time I heard about that since for example, a cousin of mine spent a couple of years in Dublin in the early 00s. Then when she came back from over there, she was better off and quite satisfied from her Irish experience. They really came a long long way within a pretty short time. Granted, they benefited a lot from the EU subsidies, but so did Spain that's still slower. At the end of the day, the Irish strategy proved remarkably effective, even in the turmoil of the global crisis. It is probably the best case study in there, even though the righteous Scandinavians still rule, but that is really no surprise at all.

New Brisavoine Aug 11, 2014 7:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 6686619)
East Germany is as rich as non-Parisian France? Wow.

Well, East Germany is richer than non-Londonian UK, which is even more shocking.

About provincial France, one needs to remember that it is a considerably larger than East Germany, so you have regions of higher and lesser wealth over such a vast territory, whereas East Germany is smaller and its GDP per capita is more homogenous across the land. So the average for provincial France is a bit meaningless. On the one hand you have provincial metropolitan areas with GDP per capita much higher than East Germany's (they are in the list: Lyon with $50,738, Nice-Monaco with $47,763, Toulouse with $46,729, etc.), and on the other hand there are very rural areas with low GDP per capita (these areas are also often inhabited by lots of old people, particularly retired farmers, who live off the land with small pensions, for example in places like Creuse, Cantal, Gers, etc). East Germany is much less rural (its population density is considerably higher than provincial France), and its inhabitants are mostly city dwellers, so it's hard to compare with very rural and aged areas like Creuse or Cantal.

In general, I would say that Germany tends to be a homogenous country (small rural Bavarian or Wurttemburgian districts are as productive and wealthy as big cities), whereas France is more a country of big contrasts, a bit like the US, with very productive and wealthy large cities, and rather unproductive and less well-off rural areas. Of course the big difference with the US is the huge regional equalization in France. Thanks to redistribution by the French state, you don't really notice the sharp differences on the ground, because money from the big cities is pumped to fund the rural areas. It's not like you're going to see potholes on the roads in Creuse or Cantal, even though their headline GDP per capita is as low as the Italian Mezzogiorno. In fact the roads and public equipments would tend to be in better shape in the rural areas with low GDP per capita, because the French state has always had a tendency to favor disproportionately the rural areas, to the detriment of the big cities which sorely need investment (the northern districts of Marseille or the northern banlieues of Paris come to mind).

New Brisavoine Aug 11, 2014 11:34 PM

+ the Swiss metro areas. The Swiss statistical office has at long last started publishing regional GDP figures for Switzerland, so we can finally have some figures for the Swiss metro areas, and boy they don't disappoint! :D

Unfortunately the figures are only available at canton level. In the case of Zurich, it gives a good idea of the GDP per capita of the Zurich metro area (the figure is a little bit inflated by some commuters coming from the Canton of Aarau, where the GDP per capita is $73,751, but not by very much, since most of the Zurich metro area is contained within the Canton of Zurich).

However, in the case of Basel and above all Geneva, the figures are greatly inflated by commuters coming from neighboring areas. In the case of Basel, there are commuters coming from the French department of Haut-Rhin (whose GDP per capita is $35,365) and from the Swiss cantons of Solothurn (whose GDP per capita is $68,098) and Aarau ($73,751). In case of Geneva, there are commuters coming from the French department of Haute-Savoie (whose GDP per capita is $37,010), the French department of Ain (whose GDP per capita is $33,247), and the Swiss canton of Vaud (whose GDP per capita is $75,997).

It is not possible to give more precise figures for Geneva and Basel, because there exist not GDP figures for the French communes and for the Swiss districts (below the canton level).

GDP per capita in 2011 (in US dollars, at market exchange rates, not at purchasing power parity):
- Canton of Geneva: $118,721 (figure inflated by commuters coming from neighboring areas in France and Switzerland)
- Canton of Zurich: $104,733
- cantons of Basel-Stadt & Basel-Land + German district of Lörrach: $93,436 (figure inflated by commuters coming from neighboring areas in Switzerland and France)

- Oslo metro area: between $84,000 and $94,000 (depending on the definition of the metro area)
SWITZERLAND (entire country): $83,679 ($51,352 at PPP)
- Stockholm County: $78,301
- Munich metro area: $71,460
- Paris Region: $71,307
- Copenhagen metro area: $70,128
- Helsinki-Uusimaa Region: $64,385
- Brussels-Capital + Flemish & Walloon Brabant: $64,322
- Dublin metro area: $62,406
- Rhine-Main metro area (Frankfurt-Wiesbaden-Mainz): $60,332
- Vienna metro area: $58,836
- Antwerp arrondissement: $58,318
- Stuttgart metro area: $57,832
- Hamburg metro area: $57,036

- Greater London + 6 home counties: $54,802
- Randstad (Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam, Utrecht): $52,537
- Milan metro area: $52,105
- Lyon metro area: $50,738
THE NETHERLANDS (entire country): $49,968
AUSTRIA (entire country): $49,566
ÉIRE (entire country): $49,344
- Rhine-Ruhr metro area (Essen-Düsseldorf-Cologne): $47,914
- Edinburgh metro area: $47,913
- Nice-Monaco (Alpes-Maritimes + Principality of Monaco): $47,763 (figure heavily weighed down by the numerous retirees living in the area)
- Toulouse metro area: $46,729

BELGIUM (entire country): $46,539
GERMANY (entire country): $45,293
- Rome metro area: $45,210
- Bristol metro area: $44,793
- Marseille metro area: $44,582
- Bordeaux metro area: $43,251
- Florence metro area: $42,922
FRANCE (entire country): $42,812

- Turin province: $42,192
- Madrid province: $40,940
- Berlin metro area: $39,046
- Bilbao province: $39,039
UK (entire country): $38,964
- Liège arrondissement: $37,892
ITALY (entire country): $37,025
- Barcelona province: $35,861
- Glasgow metro area: $35,278
- West Yorkshire metro area (Leeds-Bradford): $34,463
- Manchester metro area: $34,255
- Newcastle metro area: $33,287
- Birmingham metro area: ca. $32,000
- Lisbon metro area: $31,333
SPAIN (entire country): $31,173
- Liverpool metro area: $29,783
- Valencia province: $28,827
- South Yorkshire metro area (Sheffield-Doncaster): $27,593

- Palermo province: $25,549
PORTUGAL (entire country): $22,570
- Naples metro area: $22,150

- Porto metro area: $19,634

Miu Aug 12, 2014 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine (Post 6687363)

In general, I would say that Germany tends to be a homogenous country (small rural Bavarian or Wurttemburgian districts are as productive and wealthy as big cities), whereas France is more a country of big contrasts, a bit like the US, with very productive and wealthy large cities, and rather unproductive and less well-off rural areas. Of course the big difference with the US is the huge regional equalization in France. Thanks to redistribution by the French state, you don't really notice the sharp differences on the ground, because money from the big cities is pumped to fund the rural areas. It's not like you're going to see potholes on the roads in Creuse or Cantal, even though their headline GDP per capita is as low as the Italian Mezzogiorno. In fact the roads and public equipments would tend to be in better shape in the rural areas with low GDP per capita, because the French state has always had a tendency to favor disproportionately the rural areas, to the detriment of the big cities which sorely need investment (the northern districts of Marseille or the northern banlieues of Paris come to mind).

France is extremely homogeneous outside of Paris as far as GDP is concernced, much more so than Germany, as a quick look at NUTS 2-level data confirms.

New Brisavoine Aug 12, 2014 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miu (Post 6688034)
France is extremely homogeneous outside of Paris as far as GDP is concernced, much more so than Germany, as a quick look at NUTS 2-level data confirms.

It's homogeneous at NUTS-2 level, yes, but French NUTS-2 are large regions the size of entire European countries like Switzerland, Austria, or Denmark.

The real diversity is at NUTS-3 level, the departments, where you can see big difference between large urban metro areas and smaller rural areas.

Miu Aug 12, 2014 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine (Post 6688057)
It's homogeneous at NUTS-2 level, yes, but French NUTS-2 are large regions the size of entire European countries like Switzerland, Austria, or Denmark.

The real diversity is at NUTS-3 level, the departments, where you can see big difference between large urban metro areas and smaller rural areas.

The urban/rural discrepancy exists everywhere, which is why a comparison at the NUTS-2 level makes more sense IMO. That being said, France also appears to be more homogeneous than the other large EU countries at the NUTS-3 level.

New Brisavoine Aug 12, 2014 2:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miu (Post 6688093)
The urban/rural discrepancy exists everywhere, which is why a comparison at the NUTS-2 level makes more sense IMO. That being said, France also appears to be more homogeneous than the other large EU countries at the NUTS-3 level.

As I said, you're gonna find much less of that urban/rural discrepancy in Germany.

And the level comparable to German NUTS-2 in France is NUTS-3. The French NUTS-2 are very large, more comparable to German NUTS-1.

mousquet Aug 12, 2014 2:53 PM

You guys don't sweat the homogeneity thing with your nuts technical terms, eh? :D Of course it's generally homogeneous, as a natural consequence of the French egalitarian ideals which our entire population (including ourselves on this forum) was soaked in straight from elementary school, for the much much better if you ask me. Questions and disagreements are about how to actually and effectively implement these ideals by connecting them to economic efficiency. That's still a huge challenge, as shown by this single phrase.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Miu (Post 6688034)
France is extremely homogeneous outside of Paris as far as GDP is concernced.

Well, that's the hellish problem. There's only one "outside of" in there, whereas in a perfect world, there wouldn't be any at all. So my point is there should be several "outside of." I think sometimes, we should proceed by little temporary concessions over the strict principles, but it'd just be like crafty tricks until everyone catches up on the so called luckiest through friendly, respectful, smartly regulated - that means both fair and flexible enough as much as possible - competition. I think that's understandable, especially when economic competition always brings about more jobs and created wealth, that is systematic. That's why I'm in favor of further decentralization in the country. It would most definitely allow such tricks, like they do in the US. I don't think any territory would ever be left abandoned anyway. We French are certainly often rude and obnoxious, but I feel like most of us truly love our country. So I don't think any of us would ever be abandoned in a struggle even in a more competitive inner environment. That just would be immoral and too ugly. If you carefully watch what actually happens over there, you see that in the US, in spite of their seemingly harsh system, they won't do that ugly either.

nito Aug 20, 2014 9:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine (Post 6687363)
Well, East Germany is richer than non-Londonian UK, which is even more shocking.

It is a bit odd separating countries into segments as alluded to above, but the UK GDP per capita figures for the period don’t really come as much of a surprise considering the substantial contraction in the British economy following the financial crisis, ongoing population growth through the downturn, and valuation of the pound against other currencies (a 25% variation from 2007 to 2011 with the dollar for instance).

The present day (2014) picture for the British economy is substantially more upbeat; unemployment is now below that of Germany and the economy is the fastest growing in the G7.

Miu Aug 20, 2014 12:57 PM

^The UK's unemployment rate is actually still over 1 percentage point higher than Germany's.

mousquet Aug 20, 2014 6:13 PM

@nito No doubt you're correct. From a French perspective, the problem with the British economy is it also seems exremely sensitive to conjunctures, which explains those rather spectacular and raw changes in the UK from time to time. Nowadays, most the French usually hate that. It makes them feel unsecured. They like things to be balanced and stable. That's an issue in times of global growth because it tends to slow down our own. Unlike the UK's, France's economy's not reactive enough to a positive environment. On the other hand, the French weren't so troubled when you guys were struggling for the crisis.

I wouldn't praise any French model anyway, because I think it's too static, generally both too rigid and too slow and mainly serving a certain establishment over here. But the fact is most in France were still at a relative peace when you guys in Britain were in pain. Now, the struggle is coming to France indeed.

New Brisavoine Aug 22, 2014 12:48 PM

+ the Greek metro areas and Istanbul. Be prepared for a surprise regarding Athens (the 2011 census showed the population of Attica was lower than previously thought). ;)

This year Eurostat has provided GDP figures for the Turkish regions, so we can for the first time calculate the GDP per capita of Istanbul. The population of Istanbul is derived from the address based population registration system which accurately pinpoints the population of Turkey at their real place of residence (this boosted the population of Istanbul, because people previously reported as living in Anatolian villages are now accurately reported as living where they really live, i.e. Istanbul).

GDP per capita in 2011 (in US dollars, at market exchange rates, not at purchasing power parity):
- Canton of Geneva: $118,721 (figure inflated by commuters coming from neighboring areas in France and Switzerland)
- Canton of Zurich: $104,733
- cantons of Basel-Stadt & Basel-Land + German district of Lörrach: $93,436 (figure inflated by commuters coming from neighboring areas in Switzerland and France)

- Oslo metro area: between $84,000 and $94,000 (depending on the definition of the metro area)
SWITZERLAND (entire country): $83,679 ($51,352 at PPP)
- Stockholm County: $78,301
- Munich metro area: $71,460
- Paris Region: $71,307
- Copenhagen metro area: $70,128
- Helsinki-Uusimaa Region: $64,385
- Brussels-Capital + Flemish & Walloon Brabant: $64,322
- Dublin metro area: $62,406
- Rhine-Main metro area (Frankfurt-Wiesbaden-Mainz): $60,332
- Vienna metro area: $58,836
- Antwerp arrondissement: $58,318
- Stuttgart metro area: $57,832
- Hamburg metro area: $57,036

- Greater London + 6 home counties: $54,802
- Randstad (Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam, Utrecht): $52,537
- Milan metro area: $52,105
- Lyon metro area: $50,738
THE NETHERLANDS (entire country): $49,968
AUSTRIA (entire country): $49,566
ÉIRE (entire country): $49,344
- Rhine-Ruhr metro area (Essen-Düsseldorf-Cologne): $47,914
- Edinburgh metro area: $47,913
- Nice-Monaco (Alpes-Maritimes + Principality of Monaco): $47,763 (figure heavily weighed down by the numerous retirees living in the area)
- Toulouse metro area: $46,729

BELGIUM (entire country): $46,539
GERMANY (entire country): $45,293
- Rome metro area: $45,210
- Bristol metro area: $44,793
- Marseille metro area: $44,582
- Bordeaux metro area: $43,251
- Florence metro area: $42,922
FRANCE (entire country): $42,812

- Turin province: $42,192
- Madrid province: $40,940
- Berlin metro area: $39,046
- Bilbao province: $39,039
UK (entire country): $38,964
- Liège arrondissement: $37,892
ITALY (entire country): $37,025
- Barcelona province: $35,861
- Glasgow metro area: $35,278
- Athens region (Attica): $35,263
- West Yorkshire metro area (Leeds-Bradford): $34,463
- Manchester metro area: $34,255
- Newcastle metro area: $33,287
- Birmingham metro area: ca. $32,000
- Lisbon metro area: $31,333
SPAIN (entire country): $31,173
- Liverpool metro area: $29,783
- Valencia province: $28,827
- South Yorkshire metro area (Sheffield-Doncaster): $27,593

GREECE (entire country): $26,104
- Palermo province: $25,549
- Thessaloniki regional unit: $22,612
PORTUGAL (entire country): $22,570
- Naples metro area: $22,150

- Porto metro area: $19,634
- Istanbul province: $15,618
TURKEY (entire country): $10,413

New Brisavoine Aug 23, 2014 9:18 AM

+ the Polish metro areas.

GDP per capita in 2011 (in US dollars, at market exchange rates, not at purchasing power parity):
- Canton of Geneva: $118,721 (figure inflated by commuters coming from neighboring areas in France and Switzerland)
- Canton of Zurich: $104,733
- cantons of Basel-Stadt & Basel-Land + German district of Lörrach: $93,436 (figure inflated by commuters coming from neighboring areas in Switzerland and France)

- Oslo metro area: between $84,000 and $94,000 (depending on the definition of the metro area)
SWITZERLAND (entire country): $83,679 ($51,352 at PPP)
- Stockholm County: $78,301
- Munich metro area: $71,460
- Paris Region: $71,307
- Copenhagen metro area: $70,128
- Helsinki-Uusimaa Region: $64,385
- Brussels-Capital + Flemish & Walloon Brabant: $64,322
- Dublin metro area: $62,406
- Rhine-Main metro area (Frankfurt-Wiesbaden-Mainz): $60,332
- Vienna metro area: $58,836
- Antwerp arrondissement: $58,318
- Stuttgart metro area: $57,832
- Hamburg metro area: $57,036

- Greater London + 6 home counties: $54,802
- Randstad (Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam, Utrecht): $52,537
- Milan metro area: $52,105
- Lyon metro area: $50,738
THE NETHERLANDS (entire country): $49,968
AUSTRIA (entire country): $49,566
ÉIRE (entire country): $49,344
- Rhine-Ruhr metro area (Essen-Düsseldorf-Cologne): $47,914
- Edinburgh metro area: $47,913
- Nice-Monaco (Alpes-Maritimes + Principality of Monaco): $47,763 (figure heavily weighed down by the numerous retirees living in the area)
- Toulouse metro area: $46,729

BELGIUM (entire country): $46,539
GERMANY (entire country): $45,293
- Rome metro area: $45,210
- Bristol metro area: $44,793
- Marseille metro area: $44,582
- Bordeaux metro area: $43,251
- Florence metro area: $42,922
FRANCE (entire country): $42,812

- Turin province: $42,192
- Madrid province: $40,940
- Berlin metro area: $39,046
- Bilbao province: $39,039
UK (entire country): $38,964
- Liège arrondissement: $37,892
ITALY (entire country): $37,025
- Barcelona province: $35,861
- Glasgow metro area: $35,278
- Athens region (Attica): $35,263
- West Yorkshire metro area (Leeds-Bradford): $34,463
- Manchester metro area: $34,255
- Newcastle metro area: $33,287
- Birmingham metro area: ca. $32,000
- Lisbon metro area: $31,333
SPAIN (entire country): $31,173
- Liverpool metro area: $29,783
- Valencia province: $28,827
- Warsaw metro area: $27,914
- South Yorkshire metro area (Sheffield-Doncaster): $27,593

GREECE (entire country): $26,104
- Palermo province: $25,549
- Thessaloniki regional unit: $22,612
PORTUGAL (entire country): $22,570
- Naples metro area: $22,150

- Poznan metro area: $20,446
- Porto metro area: $19,634
- Wroclaw metro area: $16,638
- Katowice-Bytom-Gliwice metro area: $15,653

- Istanbul province: $15,618
- Tricity (Gdansk) metro area: $14,976
- Krakow metro area: $14,942
POLAND (entire country): $13,400

TURKEY (entire country): $10,413

Crawford Aug 24, 2014 4:03 AM

Wow, how can Bordeaux be poorer than Marseille?

I've never been to Marseille, but thought it had some significant economic issues. I have been to Bordeaux and it seemed very rich, in fact it felt richer than anywhere in France outside of Paris. The city center is very posh and upscale, and the suburbs are quite nice. Marseille looks relatively poor on Google streetview, but obviously that can be misleading.

And Athens richer than Manchester and Birmingham? I'm not saying it isn't true, but you sure wouldn't know it if you visited these places.

mousquet Aug 24, 2014 8:35 AM

^ Downtown Bordeaux's been undergoing some significant refurbishment for a decade or so. That's how a lot of it looks well-off today, but I heard hundreds of times it looked neglected before. I think Marseille is in that kind of trouble, some neglect due to a lack of will from local politicians. There's nonetheless some money out there. Overall, France's Mediterranean coast is everything but poor and I wouldn't worry about them.

In fact, most concerns go to the northern regions (especially Nord-Pas-de-Calais and Lorraine) that have lost their manufacturing jobs over the past decades. That being said, I recently read Lille was not doing so bad now. I don't like their mayor. She's a pain nationwide, but she's also often mentioned for having done a pretty good job for her city. :shrug: So, I guess I have to give her credit for that.

New Brisavoine Aug 24, 2014 10:59 AM

The idea that Marseille is poor is a myth, based on a few observations of immigrant neighborhoods near the city center. The suburbs of Marseille are rich, as well as its southern quarters, and the port of Marseille brings in lots of revenues.

The southern quarters of the city, where the Marseille bourgeoisie live:

http://www.survoldefrance.fr/photos/...f/15/15871.jpg

They live in villas like these:

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/p...m/49980037.jpg

http://www.micheldechabannes.fr/site...-6745471-a.jpg

http://www.dayimmo.fr/wp-content/upl...marseille2.png

https://medias.immovision.com/photos/p0/15384/4vm01.jpg

http://www.easyspaces.fr/site/images...a1bbc839a6.JPG

In the suburbs there are many middle-class areas like these:

http://www.survoldefrance.fr/photos/...f/44/44141.jpg

http://www.survoldefrance.fr/photos/...f/44/44140.jpg

Some sections of the busy port (I believe it's the busiest oil port in Europe after Rotterdam; non-oil freight is less developed, due to the rigid unions there):

http://www.survoldefrance.fr/photos/...f/45/45775.jpg

http://www.survoldefrance.fr/photos/...f/45/45777.jpg

http://www.survoldefrance.fr/photos/...f/36/36874.jpg

http://www.survoldefrance.fr/photos/...f/36/36474.jpg

http://s23.postimg.org/nwm99g5wr/23471.jpg

And of course the city center, for all its grit, remains a very interesting place, much more clean than Naples, and more or less on par with Barcelona in terms of grit and cleanliness.

http://www.acdi-cida.ca/wp-content/u.../marseille.jpg

New Brisavoine Aug 24, 2014 11:20 AM

For an idea of economic size:

GDP in 2011:
- province of Barcelona: 198 billion US dollars
- province of Rome: 194
- Bouches-du-Rhône (the department of Marseille): 88.2
- provinces of Naples + Caserta: 87.7
- province of Valencia: 74
- Alpes-Maritimes (department of Nice and Cannes) + Principality of Monaco: 53
- province of Genoa: 34
- province of Palermo: 32

mousquet Aug 24, 2014 11:44 AM

^ Yeah. It's no part of what foreigners call the Riviera, but there's surely some money all along the coast and in Marseille in particular.

I'm just annoyed by the time it takes to actually build the couple of highrises planned on the docks... Talking about these. How does it take so long when it's right on that wealthy coast? :shrug: That surely doesn't help to change that sorry reputation of the city that has it too slow and gritty.

Crawford Aug 24, 2014 6:11 PM

Wow, Marseille looks beautiful. I've always been fascinated by that city, as it seems like a rougher, mysterious, undiscovered Barcelona, though obviously with a strong Maghreb accent. I think I liked the town ever since I saw that 1970's movie The French Connection. And I love bouillabaisse. :)

Bordeaux still surprises me, though. It really does feel affluent, at least in the parts I visited, but I understand that visitors often get an incorrect impression.

New Brisavoine Aug 24, 2014 7:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford (Post 6703448)
a rougher, mysterious, undiscovered Barcelona, though obviously with a strong Maghreb accent.

The Maghreb accent is mostly an inner city thing. The suburbs are much more "white".

At the 2011 census, 6.7% of the population in the city of Marseille proper were Maghreban immigrants (this does not include the children and grand-children of Maghreban immigrants born on French soil), whereas in the overall metro area, the Maghreban immigrants made up only 4.9% of the population. This means in the suburbs and commuter belt the Maghreban immigrants make up only 3.0% of the population.

Maghreban immigrants at the 2011 census:
- Marseille city proper: 6.7% of the total population
- suburbs and commuter belt: 3.0%
MARSEILLE METRO AREA: 4.9%

For comparison, this is the situation in Paris:
- Paris city proper: 5.0%
- suburbs and commuter belt: 5.1%
PARIS METRO AREA: 5.1%

mousquet Aug 24, 2014 8:03 PM

Bah, there's no problem about any Maghreb accent or whatever anyway. Obviously, our kids will have some much better accents than ours, and then their own kids will do the same, and so on and on.

And the world would better get ready for the holy French language, eh, cause it's actually the conqueror. What? Isn't it? ;)
Easy, easy, y'all so freaking touchy :D... There's no trolling here, just some teasing.


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