so appropriate, so true

Monaco looks nice. Grigio is a monster.

Do you all realize that those new KMA renderings have been distorted to look shorter and wider? Check out how much fatter and squatter Grigio (aka Mondrian) is, compared to the same rendering that was released some time ago.

That said, I think the Monaco and Riviera renderings would look pretty good in their actual dimensions.


********************************************************************************************************

Did someone post this article already?

I found this online regarding the proposal to redevelopment the Civic Center. I'm so glad to see that they going to reopen B St. to vehicular traffic again after 40 years!!! I hate the way it dead-ends like it does now. :tup:


City of San Diego Seeks Development Partner for New Civic Center Complex


SAN DIEGO-(Business Wire)-August 13, 2007 - The Centre City Development Corporation (CCDC), on behalf of the City of San Diego, issued a nationwide Request for Qualifications (RFQ) on July 31, seeking development partners to explore the possible redevelopment of the Civic Center Complex in Downtown San Diego. The process is the first step in an effort to revitalize the area, cut costs, and improve efficiency and service levels for San Diego taxpayers.

The Civic Center Complex site includes the blocks bounded by Third Avenue and Front, A and C streets, excluding the block at Front and C streets currently housing the County Jail and Chamber Building, and the block at the southwest intersection of Third Avenue and A Street housing the Civic Center Plaza and Centre City buildings.

"Public/private partnerships in redeveloping city administration facilities have become models across the country," said CCDC Chairman Fred Maas. "Exploring a possible redevelopment project that replaces our aging City Hall, cuts costs, consolidates our operations and improves efficiency levels could be a win for San Diegans."

Because of their extensive experience managing complex, high-density development projects CCDC was tasked with managing this process. Similar public/private partnership projects include the new city hall in Austin, Texas, and state-of-the-art courthouse facilities in New York City.

Currently, San Diego's City Administration Building accommodates only 600 employees, and the City has had to lease privately owned space for more than 15 years. City offices are now located within eight downtown buildings (four leased), representing more than one half million square feet of leased space.

Collectively, more than 3,000 employees work in these properties which include annual leasing costs of $13.5 million. Deferred maintenance on the City Administration Building alone is estimated to exceed well in excess of $10 million. With the majority of the leases coming due in 2013 and 2014 and rates projected to significantly increase, this RFQ is seen as a proactive approach to evaluate possible costs savings through redevelopment of the site.

"This project is an important opportunity to spark the revitalization of the area north of Broadway and along C Street," said CCDC President Nancy Graham. "We look forward to receiving proposals and evaluating whether a public/private model could work to solve multiple downtown redevelopment objectives."

The RFQ process will include a thorough financial evaluation to ensure that a project would only move forward if it could clearly demonstrate a significant reduction in operational and capital costs.

Goals of the RFQ include:

— Revitalizing the City's Civic Core

— Catalyzing private sector development in the Civic Center area

— Providing more accessible public spaces

— Providing smart growth transit-oriented development

— Opening up B Street which has been closed to pedestrian and vehicular traffic for 40 years

— Replacing aging infrastructure

— Constructing a more publicly accessible City Hall

— Increasing tax increment revenues generated to the City; and

— Utilizing sustainable development techniques

Responses are due October 12, 2007. A pre-bid conference has been scheduled for September 6 at 10 a.m. in the Silver Room of the Community Concourse (202 C Street). Additionally, public workshops are planned throughout the process to provide input, feedback and ideas. All dates will be posted on the CCDC website www.ccdc.com as they are scheduled.

The complete RFQ can be downloaded from CCDC's website in the Business Opps section at: http://www.ccdc.com/index.cfm/fuseac...etail/rfpID=96.

So I just got back from another trip to Vancouver and I gotta say, DTSD has a long way to go before we can even compare to downtown Vancouver. While the monotonous skyline still makes me throw up a little, their street level activity are much more vibrant during both day and night.

Check out this pic that I took while wandering around. It looks SO much like our Marina District
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...s/IMG_9671.jpg

They've got a bunch of twin towers, as well
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...s/IMG_9666.jpg

See what open space along the waterfront can do for a city? (ignore the ugly buildings in the background ;))
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...s/IMG_9652.jpg

More monotony
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...s/IMG_9656.jpg

View of the False Creek section from the Granville Bridge. While the buildings go close to the edge, there is still a continuous bike/walk path the surrounds the entire downtown area.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...s/IMG_9553.jpg

^^ What you're calling monotony, I call beautifully stunning architecture. I WISH San Diego's buildings looked that good.

Agreed...screw height, this building is CRAP! Why couldn't they at least put some height on that damn thing! It isn't 500 feet, cuz it isnt even close to Symphony Towers height...BLEH!! I just threw up!

Same here, I think San Diego is the bland one, and Vancouver is more diverse and stunning.

Ok that rendering of Riviera does not have 40 floors, it only has about 28 or 30 unless I'm going blind. That does not look like a 40 floor building. So what are the chances that any of those highrise KMA designs get built??? Are all of those proposals basically cancelled or on hold?

About Vancouver: We have a LONG way to go and by that time Vancouver will be even better so I doubt we can ever catch them, just like downtown LA won't catch us. haha :haha:

The tall building on the far left of the first Vancouver shot is really nice, it looks taller then 500 feet too! That one looks new to me.

I also agree that some of Vancouver's talls are bland but by no means the majority of them. I think they are pretty nice, good colors lots of glass and not much exposed concrete (on the new buildings of course ;) )

Well, I guess it's true that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. :yes:




Hmmmm....while the setting is certainly stunning, I don't think the buildings are diverse at all. Perhaps the newer ones going up in business district have more variety?

From my visit last late last year -

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...s/IMG_5078.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...s/IMG_5051.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...s/IMG_4982.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...s/IMG_4980.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...s/IMG_5049.jpg

I went into the Downtown Info Center today and saw that the mini model of Monaco has been added. Lookin good :tup:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...r/IMG_9868.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...r/IMG_9862.jpg

Looking West down Broadway shows how slender it is
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...r/IMG_9866.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...r/IMG_9855.jpg

^ nice styrofoam

MANOMANOMANOMAN I wish that's what San Diego looked like (just with more height). :)

You know, its interesting that most comments in this thread are vague wishes like the one above. Are most people refering to only height? Is the greater goal the image of our skyline? Or is the hope that our city will become what we all belive it can? One of the great places to visit in the world; along the lines of San Francisco, London, New york, and Paris. For any of you that have visited those cities, which I am assuming is many of you, what do skylines have to do with a city's greatness? When you go to Manhattan, do you go to the Financial District or the Meatpacking District? When you go to London do you go to Canery Wharf or Covent Garden? The greatest areas of a city aren't measured by the size of its buildings, but by the coulture and people that walk the streets.

^I think you're right that cities are not entirely defined by their skylines but they are at least identified with them (tell me when you last saw a picture of a major city that didn't either focus on or incorporate the skyline).

I would go so far as to agree with you in that the most vibrant and interesting areas of a city aren't necessarily the ones with the highest buildings BUT:

1. This is a forum dedicated to highrises/skyscrapers and urban development
2. This is a thread specifically dedicated to highrises proposed/under construction/ planned in san diego.
3. Height is important not only for aesthetics but also for increasing density and adding feet on the street.


But of course height isn't the only thing that's important. I don't think anyone in their right mind would think so. Smart, dense, pedestrian urban development is ultimately what we want for San Diego. What's wrong with saying that our skyline should be taller?

Well put! That's exactly what I was trying to say in an earlier post when I was mentioning to people that although we don't have the tallest buildings, we aren't doing to bad and our downtown is more alive than a lot of the cities with taller buildings. Take LA for example (no offense) It's like a crack whore...it looks great from a distance, until you get close. Then you're like WTF???

Monaco looks good in the downtown model. :tup:

i believe that what brings visitors to a city are its attractions. san diego has plenty of those and plenty of visitors. but, what makes it stand out on a large scale is the beauty of the place, landmarks. landmarks are what people identify with and use as symbolism for what the city may FEEL like when they visit.

Tall buildings, and iconic towers symbolize a dense core and a vibrant downtown. a nice skyline does that as well. as much as you would think a snapshot of gaslamp would do it, it wont. a huge dense skyline with iconic buildings do the trick.

we already have the weather and natural landmark going for us, but no one associates our city as a destination for urban activity, hussle and bussle.

those pictures of vancouver are horrible

the architecture is horrible

SD's is slightly better:)

and the model of Monaco looks a lot better than the rendering

That is not always true. Paris is one of the most dense cities in the world (more than NYC) and it has a six story cap on most of its city.

I mentioned iconic structures as well as tall structures (which are iconic by default due to height)

And paris certainly has no shortage of iconic structures. san diego is completely lacking.

There was always this:

http://www.portofsandiego.org/sandie...t_sideview.jpg

Iconic but :yuck:

I can't speak for "most people" but I wasn't personally referring only to height -- I figured that while I was wishing for things, I may as well wish for some height to go along with Vancouver's density, aesthetics, and pretty buildings.

I don't think being one of the great places in the World to visit is in any way dependent on height, but I think having a good (i.e., nice, striking, appealing) skyline is ABSOLUTELY dependent upon height. Like somebody else suggested though, this isn't a "Your City's Greatness" forum. It's a "Your City's Skyscrapers" forum. :)

Downtown is the place for skysrapers. Hopefully, our city's growth plan will allow for the 6-10 story buildings to spread into our older, neighborhoods, as they have in Banker's Hill; Sherman Heights, Golden Hill, Barrio Logan, and Logan heights. The residents there, that are trying to keep the growth out, need to understand that the only way they will update and improve their aging ifrastructure is a higher tax base, acheived through density.

On a seperate note, I think that the 7th & Market building will move forward. Related is showing renderings of it in their last add in UrbanLand Magazine.

By the way, I love that Monaco has CURVES...San Diego needs more curves! :)

San Diego Icons
 

I feel San Diego has icons, it is just that San Diego is not very good at promoting them. The city does not choose one image and then stick with it. The California Tower in Balboa Park, the Hotel Del, The Mission, the Gaslamp Quarter Sign, Petco Park, any of these could be the image that represents San Diego if one was the only image that San Diego utilized in its literature and promotions. Instead any and all images are used and no one stands out in people's minds as San Diego.

But Paris' low-rise architecture is a disctinction in itself, very old, and taller buildings would drown out the history of the city so it's not a fair comparison. San Diego, with lead from the CCDC, has tried to market it's downtown as a new, modern city center and in the US height does go hand-in hand with that, though it's not the only thing. Part of the majic of Manhattan is the street life, but part of it is also driving over the brooklyn Bridge and seeing the awe-inspiring skyline or walking on the street and looking up at the amazing tall skyscrapers. Do you think Chicago would be as well known as it is today if it had a 500 ft height limit?

I think the bitching going on on this site has alot to do with the fear of a plateau skyline. Many high-rises are going up near the 500ft mark because they can't go higher, and if it continues our skyline will look like a glass and steel mesa. There are always two views to an urban core, the vibrancy of the street-level activity and the view of the skyline from far away. Yes, visitors will experience the street life but people in India or Africa who can't travel here will see pictures of our skyline which, in my opinion, is hindered by the height restrictions

I feel San diego is a bit culturally lacking. However, another poster/blogger provided a reasonably good explanation why that is so.... the city is too young relative to other culturally rich cities. I think of New York, Chicago, Philidelphia, or even San Francisco. San Diego is also a little smaller.

If I could turn dreams into reality... I'd like to see stuff like these ideas:

An iconic building similar to Sydney's Opera House in the vicinity of Seaport Village.

An arc like the Arc de Triomphe at the Laurel Street entrance to Balbloa Park.
Here's a picture barrowed from this travel website http://www.destination360.com/europe...e-triomphe.php .
http://www.destination360.com/europe...e-triomphe.jpg
Maybe the symbolism could have a theme of tolerance and call it the 'Arc of Tolerance.' or something.... keeping in mind that we're all just human regardless of our religous beliefs or sexual preference or what-have you. Or some other merit worthy theme. It would sure look cool to look at when flying into Lindbergh out the right side windows.

And, in Balboa Park directly east of the El Prado and promenade area and east across the valley where Park Boulevard runs and above Florida Drive.... a statue or set of statues facing west. Something big to look at ...and use the El Prado or eastern flower garden area as viewing areas. What could it be? I don't know? Alonzo Horton? War heros? Mt Rushmore west?

As an aside... wouldn't it be cool to look northeasterly from downtown high rises and see a large head sticking above the tree line? Ha ha ha.

Last time I went there was a foam library tower on the map, have they taken it off since the project is likely not gonna happen?

I wish a foam rendering at the CCDC map was an indicator something will for sure happen, but it's not; it's just like their website, unreliable

No more Library Tower
 

,,,,

No more Library Tower
 

Condo growth slowing down

Construction costs, stricter lending rules blamed; some projects sold, others are redesigned
By Jeanette Steele
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

August 19, 2007

LAURA EMBRY / Union-Tribune
Atmosphere is one of two downtown San Diego condo projects that started then stalled.
The bones of what was supposed to be Atmosphere, nearly 80 “luxury live/work units for a life well-designed,” sit open to public view. Naked steel rods and yawning holes are in the earth. The wood and chain-link fence around the site looks like it has been pried open in a couple of places.

Atmosphere is one of two downtown San Diego condo projects that started then stalled. The developer of Triangle, at 14th Street and Imperial Avenue, demolished an old warehouse and then stopped. It's a parking lot now.

The rest of the tale is told in the quarterly status log of Centre City Development Corp., which oversees downtown redevelopment. Five condo projects with development permits are up for sale or recently sold. Four more in the development pipeline are being redesigned; at least one of those is changing to a hotel. The downtown agency finally closed the file on another condo proposal after the builder stopped calling or submitting documents.

It's a whiplash change of pace for the once white-hot downtown residential market. A year ago, giant construction cranes were mostly there to build condos. Many cranes that remain will be diverted to different kinds of projects – increasingly, hotels.

Downtown residents give this trend mixed reviews.

“As lots stay empty, they become homes for the homeless and a potential for increased crime,” Tybor said.

Joyce Summer, a Cortez Hill resident, said her worst fear is towers left halfway finished.

On the other hand, Gary Smith of the Downtown Residents Group said a slowdown gives the city time to catch up.

Downtown San Diego had 17,000 residents in 2000. The roughly 30,000 residents living downtown today still are waiting for parks and other public amenities that most city neighborhoods have.

“This gives us a little breathing space,” Smith said.

The buzz these days is about hotels, with six major hospitality ventures being proposed along the waterfront. Offices also have shown some spark: The Irvine Co. is getting permits for a 34-story office tower and Manchester Development's plan for four office buildings was just approved.

Downtown condominium builders appear to be in a holding pattern.

One factor is banks are getting stricter on lending money; they want developers to put more of their own cash into condo projects, now that the real estate boom is over.
Another reason for the condo slowdown is skyrocketing construction prices, which have made new housing projects look less profitable.

San Diego's position as one of the top five travel destinations in the nation makes the city a hot market for hotels, according to the San Diego Convention & Visitors Bureau.

Downtown hotels are running about 75 percent full, and the average room price is $182.73 a night, up 6 percent from last year. The convention center is basically booked solid, officials say.

“All that adds up to a very healthy hotel market and one of the strongest in the country,” said David Peckinpaugh, visitors bureau president.

Some residential builders say they are waiting until the current glut of new condos is sold out. They hope to position themselves to be first with new units when the market, in theory, swings upward again.

“Sometime this fall or early next winter, you're going to see several projects start,” said Sherm Harmer, chairman of the Downtown Residential Marketing Alliance, a developer group.

Not everyone thinks the condo market will spring back quite so fast.

San Diego real estate economist Gary London said the downtown skyline won't see many new residential towers for at least four years.

“There is a pipeline of 9,000 units of projects that are planned after this year – most of which won't be built,” London said.

The good news for developers – but not for bargain-hunting consumers – is that prices on new condo units, while no longer meteoric, have not taken a steep dive.

In the second quarter of this year, the median new home price in the downtown ZIP code was $411,500, according to DataQuick Information Services. In 2006, that figure was $437,000; in 2005, it was $408,750; and in 2004 it was $439,000. Geography is playing a role in a developer's degree of bullishness.

Bosa Development Corp. owns five parcels fairly close to North Embarcadero. Developer Nat Bosa intends to break ground next year on a condo tower at Kettner Boulevard and Ash Street, a spokesman said.

Another Bosa project called Bayside, at Pacific Highway and Ash Street, is under construction and completion is expected in 2009. Luxury units in that building began selling in February. The starting price was $750,000.

“When you are building higher-end units on 'A' locations, that buyer is less apt to be concerned about . . . short-term ramifications of prices dropping 5 percent, 6 percent,” said Bosa sales and marketing director Dennis Serraglio. “They know that, long term, great locations in a great city are irreplaceable.”

It's another story in the East Village. Intracorp said its Triangle condo project was a little premature.

“It's in an area that will do better with a little time,” said company President William Nichols.

The leader of the pack in condo redesign is probably the Elle, once proposed as a 173-unit housing project on A Street in Little Italy.

The Elle is now Columbia Tower, a 364-room hotel proposed by a new owner. The hotel will include 63 condo units.

Urban Housing Partners, Harmer's company, recently changed the land-use designation for its Library Tower project, once envisioned as 174 condos in a slender tower at Park Boulevard and K Street.

Harmer said his company is considering a boutique hotel or condo-hotel combination at the site, which is close to a huge Marriott convention hotel proposal.

Back at the Atmosphere site on Fifth, some downtown dwellers have complained that the stalled project's leftovers are unsightly and unsafe.

The downtown redevelopment agency forwarded those objections to the city's code enforcement unit, but an enforcement officer who checked it out said no city regulations have been violated.

The architect for the “live/work units” said the delay is in part caused by the death of the original developer. The site has gone through four owners since then, said David Hawkins of the Hawkins Hawkins Anderson firm.

The current one – who purchased the land in February, according to county records – plans to move ahead this month or next, Hawkins said. The project is still envisioned as condos.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeanette Steele: (619) 293-1030; jen.steele@uniontrib.com

Mmmm... The Downtown Residential Marketing Alliance commented on the state of affairs in the above article. Since they are the broadband marketing of downtown living and development it makes sense that they'd forward a positive picture. “Sometime this fall or early next winter, you're going to see several projects start,” ... ???

I wish it to be true, but I have doubts.

Interestingly, Library Tower is not dead... but may re-emerge as a boutique hotel? I speculate that it'll be dependant on the Ballpark Village plan and the large hotel planned for the SE corner of Imperial & Park Blvd.

If Library Tower emerges as a boutique hotel, I won't complain. :)

I am glad to see that Atmosphere is likely to be re started. I live on 5th and it is sad to walk by that lot.

^^^Did anyone catch this? This is that other tower that was right on the corner of ash opposite the tracks from Bayside. The renderings are/were very cool. I haven't seen it on CCDC for some time, but I guess it's coming back unless they meant to say First and Island which I doubt.

http://www.amanatarchitect.com/kettner.html
http://www.amanatarchitect.com/images/kettner-east.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...tnernight2.jpg

Oh yayyyy -- that one was one of my favorites! Sweet! Good buildings are back in SD!!

That is a good looking tower.

Looks as if this board is dead with the bad news about condo towers being cancelled.

I still think developement of hotels will continue to be strong, that seems like the one thing SD can still really use. I am really hoping office development will flourish during the condo downturn and give jobs and business the chance to catch-up to the residential boom, but who knows

I'm seriously hoping that Library Tower will come out as a condotel.

^^ I tall, thin, curvy condotel.

Build it, looks nice...

CCDC Open Space
 

it looks like CCDC has a new RFQ for consultants to produce an open space assessment in downtown. this is good news, I think, since it demonstrates CCDC is taking the parks and open space requirements of tourists and residents seriously (beyond their existing parks plan which till now is really just a map, and even with that, really only consists of the east village green as anything substantive). thought i'd mention it since we were discussing this on the thread about a month ago. here's the excerpt from the RFQ from ccdc.com:

I'll be interested to see which firm ends up with the contract, hopefully someone who'll give the entire downtown area the type of evaluation it really needs.

Just when i thought that CCDC was a government agency that doesn't waste money, they go and do this. I thought the Sterling comittee spent all those years on the DT comunity plan discussing the needs assesment on open space, and here we are going to do it again.

There are already a ton of parks / plazas downtown that do not live up to their potential (Children's, Horton, etc...). If you ask me, the money would be better spent redesigning open spaces that already exist and aren't working, rather than hiring a consultant to identify "more" open spaces.

Couldn't agree more.

Does anyone like to sit on the grass at The Park at the Park in Petco? I know that the health department will shut down a restaurant at the hint of rodent droppings, why wouldn't they be concerned when paying customers at a baseball game are sitting in dogshit residue? If you don't believe me, walk down there anytime during the day and count how may dogs are shitting all over the same grass that is filled by baseball fans a few hours later.

Why does Burnham get most of the commercial listings downtown?
 

If you notice, they have listings on all of the new space in the Legend, Diamond View Tower, The Mark, etc.

If I was a building owner, why would I want to hire the same company who is representing my competition? For example, If there is a restaurant looking to take some space, I want my broker to fight to get them. It would seem like a conflict of interest if Burnham is showing them space in all of the buildings.

You wonder why spaces sit vacant for at least 1-2 years...AFTER THE BUILDING IS DONE!!!!

Sounds like Burnham has a monopoly on leasing realestate downtown???

I agree, especially with the horton plaza "park". That is in such a prominant location and is such an eyesore. To make matters worse, I just read that a huge bronze statue of former mayor/governor Pete Wilson is to be erected there this weekend. Yuck - - a hideous park with a statue of an ultra-conservative backwards politican in one of the most prominant areas of the city. I wish they would use the money to be spent on consultants to level it and start from scratch!!!!

-
-

Who the hell is Pete Wilson?

(I'm young and from New York, sorry!)

Former Gov.