Baseball in Canada
 

It's been a while since we've had a dedicated place to discuss baseball, so I thought I'd fire off a thread. I did a search and there have been a couple MLB-focused threads in previous years, but I wanted to leave the topic open so that while most of the chatter will likely be Jays-related, there's also room for the speculation around a team returning to Montreal, discussion about minor league teams and prospects, the development of the sport in general, etc.

I was fairly dismissive of baseball growing up, but developed an interest in the game back in 2015 when I had some time on my hands recovering from an illness. Of course, that happened to coincide with the Jays' big bandwagon year and playoff run. I've been hooked ever since. Might even be able to make it to a game at Rogers Centre later this year.

The Jays seem to be finding their stride on the heels of this most recent road trip. Bad news concerning Shoemaker, however, who will miss the rest of the season with a torn ACL. Hopefully the rotation can continue their good work in spite of this setback.

Will be strange to see Pillar in a Giants uniform Tuesday night.

Sounds like Vlad might be up by the end of the week.

Yup, turns out Vlad will make his debut tomorrow night. Will be interesting to see how he adjusts to the big leagues.

A couple disappointing games against the Giants - apart from the Tellez grand slam on Tuesday, they seemed to be slipping back into their early season offensive troubles. Hopefully they can get good results against the A's again, having just swept them last weekend.

Going to the game on Saturday. This season is a write-off, I just want to watch Vladdy hit 40 bombs.

I doubt the Jays go anywhere this year and Tampa is looking like the favourite to win the East. Having said that, if their pitching holds together (which it probably won't) they could keep themselves in the wildcard race, especially if Vladdy goes off for 40HR.

What gets me about MLB right now is this weird catch-22 when it comes to power hitters. They hit free agency and nobody wants them, ala Chris Carter after leading the NL in homeruns, because of high strikeout rates. But then we see across the majors that teams are focused on launch angle and bat speed and signing players with those 2 attributes hoping they will amount to power hitters (ie: Randal Grichuk) despite lacking the production of a guy like Chris Carter, all the while striking out just as much, rarely getting on base, and sporting awful batting lines that would have them cut in any other era, again, like Grichuk's .217 average.

Ahh, the era of analytics.

The previous eras had it wrong just focusing on average. It's far better to focus on on-base-percentage. Walks are just as valuable as hits - both get the batter on-base.

Chris Carter had 41 HRs in 2016, but his OBP was .321 while his slugging % was a respectable though not great .499 and OPS was .821. That's pretty mediocre for a first baseman/DH when compared to other players around the league playing the same position. Carter also had a whopping 0.9 WAR that season which shows he didn't carry much value. Teams were right not to sign him to a big contract as his following season was brutal and now he is nowhere to be found.

I don't agree with the Grichuk signing as he has produced mediocre numbers for most of this career (below .800 OPS, barely .300 OBP). I doubt he will put it altogether on a consistent basis. Meh signing by Shatkins but that seems to be par for the course for them based on their time in Cleveland - sign Grade B players to these types of "value contracts" who have put up mostly middling numbers throughout their careers with the hope they will breakout.

Entertaining game for Vlad's debut. He might not have hit it out of the ballpark tonight but his first major league hit came at a clutch moment and I was glad to see it happened in his first game. Overall I thought his outing was good, making a couple defensive plays from third and making contact all of his at-bats. Looking forward to seeing many more great at-bats from Vladdy.

The Jays might not end up being a contender this year but I do find them fun to watch, and they have a lot of players worth following, both on the roster now and in their minor league system.

In BP his first HR blasted some poor lady in the face while she was standing in 2nd deck center field. Wasn't paying attention.

I recall being at BP once as a kid sitting in the 5th deck and IIRC Kirby Puckett launched a ball that bounced off the seat about three away from me.

And in 2010 I was at the opener and waiting for my group of British friends on work visas who had never been to ball game. They would be sitting right behind us in LF 2nd deck. And I said it would be a cool story if you got a ball at BP. They were a few minutes late and just before they arrive one of the Red Sox players hits a line drive missile that makes a direct hit on the seat two over just behind me, which is where one of the girls would be sitting. It could have been horrific.

I was busy dealing with sunflower seeds and since I've caught two foul balls in my life, with the second one spraining my finger, I didn't feel the need to try and catch it.

Jealous. Never came close to catching a ball. I only had one in reach two rows away. Alas, there were kids seated in front of me so I chose not to go for it.

I grabbed seats in the second deck, middle of left field for optimal chance at grabbing Vlad Jr.'s first home run today.

Quite the game this afternoon, the wheels really fell off in the top of the 11th but somehow they rallied in the bottom half for the win.

Unfortunately the Jays will be in Anaheim during my trip to a conference in the GTA this week - I would have definitely picked up a ticket if they'd been playing at home. However, their schedule lines up better for my next planned visit in September. Can't wait!

Pretty inconsistent performances from the Jays lately. Blown out 19-4 yesterday and then a 10-1 win this afternoon. Impressive first HR for Biggio, into the 400 level. When the bats are alive this is a fun team to watch - when they're not, it can be excruciating.

In non-MLB news, I've decided to start following the baseball scene in my neck of the woods: the New Brunswick Senior Baseball League. Went to a Saint John Alpines game on a chilly Thursday night at Memorial Field on the West Side of Saint John for my first live game.

https://i.imgur.com/WvNY3Vm.jpg

Memorial Field really isn't much more than a field. Bleachers to seat a few hundred, a clubhouse, canteen, hot dog cart, and electronic scoreboard/loudspeakers that look to be several decades old. Great atmosphere though, and I thought the quality of baseball on display was quite good. The Alpines were headlined by starting pitcher Andrew Case, a SJ native who has spent time in the Blue Jays' farm system, and he put on a great performance. The Alpines started things off with a 2-run HR in the bottom of the 1st and they held on to defeat the Fredericton Royals 4-2.

I'll definitely be attending more games, though the weather could stand to warm up a bit!

Woahhhh .....

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeffPassa...61834434871297

Pffft....

The real money's in Vegas. :P

Just need the state of Nevada to build you an indoor ballpark and you're set.

Methinks this is a bargaining technique to get somewhere in the Tampa area to pony up for a new baseball stadium.

What a dumb idea.

Two cities for the year.

I'm sure the players LOVE this idea too. Not.

Apparently it can't be implemented until 2023.

Both cities would get new baseball stadiums.

So... it's easier to get a new stadium built for a part-time team that plays 40 games a year in your city than it is for a full time team that's completely yours and plays 80 games a year there?

Still so much baseball to go. But I'm not holding my breath this season.

It is easier to get a new stadium when you're edging towards the door.

"Look, I'm leaving."
*dramatic flail*
"Look at me, I'm inching closer to the door to go away now"
*inches closer to the exit*
"Loooookkkkiiitt meeee!!"

I suspect the continued resistance to building a new stadium in the Tampa area (there have been several failed initiatives in the 2000s) is the drive for this.

That sounds like a really lame idea that won't conceivably fly. So many issues with it.

They might as well just add a few seats to the Yankees minor league stadium across the road from the Bucs football stadium. It already seats 11,000. Not sure how many more people they think they will draw if they are basically turning the Rays into an extended spring training team for the Montreal playoff drive.

I would love to see baseball back in Montreal, and the Rays are as a good a team as any (and an AL East rival for the Jays would be beneficial to both teams), but this idea is about the dumbest I have heard. Just move permanently. Tampa and their papered house 14,000 a game don't care.

Yes, this idea won't fly. Desparate attempt by the Tampa owner to get public
funding for a stadium. After the FLorida Marlins debacle it won't happen.

Last time I checked, the Rays were a profitable franchise. And nobody goes to the games...nobody!

Not sure about this two city business but it seems there is a new paradigm emerging in the business of professional sport. Time to experiment, I guess.

As a fan though, how could you really get emotionally invested in a team that spends half its time playing out of another city? Are people in Tampa going to buy tickets to watch a team only to have it bugger off once the pennant race starts heating up? Are Montrealers going to be excited to have a baseball team back even if they're a group of part timers called the Tampa Bay Rays instead of the Montreal Expos?

wave46 and blueandgoldguy nailed it, it's nothing more than a desperation tactic by Rays ownership.

I'm surprised MLB green lit this. It's just such a bizarre concept playing a full half of a season in a second city. Perhaps you could play 20 games or so in a second city, but come on, what self respecting season's ticket holder would put up with this shit.

What would happen if the Rays made the playoffs? Since they played the second half of the season in Montreal, does this mean the playoffs are held in Montreal too? If so, doesn't this mean that the team is really a Montreal team? Wouldn't the Tampa Bay fans feel jilted? This is just so bizarre........

MLB should just get off the pot and bring back the Expos and be done with it.

Well, the only thing they've green lit is exploring the idea.

This is a really strange story, especially since the Rays are locked into this iron-clad agreement to use Tropicana Field through to 2027 and the mayor of St. Petersburg has indicated that he won't even entertain the idea.

The Rays' stadium situation is explained well at this link: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmac.../#1f33f5325a81

It almost seems like this was created to drum up media attention to maybe force the Rays or the city to do something.

What continues to amaze me is that the Rays have a very exciting young team who is definitely looking like a playoff contender, yet their fanbase (by their attendance) seem mostly uninterested. They don't seem to appreciate what they have, apparently.

Here's an article which also suggests that it's a tactic to put pressure on those involved:
https://www.draysbay.com/2019/6/21/1...l-mlb-reaction

That would be quite the sloppy seconds deal for Tampa
If it happens.

Not sure how it would boost fan interest and attendance.

Especially given that having a competitive, exciting team battling for the lead of the AL east (arguably the toughest division in the MLB), has not been enough to draw fans into the game. They are the second-lowest attended team in the league only exceeded (in lack of attendance) by the Marlins.

Maybe Florida should not have more than one team? There does not seem to be much interest in baseball there...

The Rays dome is so terrible. Even watching a game their on TV is depressing.

Agreed. They even have a rule in place for when the ball hits the catwalk above, since it happens so often...

.

The Rays made the World Series in 2008, and were 26th out of 30 in attendance. That carried over to 23rd out of 30 the following year. (they drew 15 people less per game than the sub-.500 Blue jays in 2009 lol). They peaked at 22nd in 2010, and then have been 29th or mostly 30th since, and have many of those years, been either contenders or at least competitive. Even most of the years before that run, they were 29th or 30th, going back to when Montreal was still in the league and they occupied the 30th spot most of their last several years.

Long story short: it's not a great market for the MLB. I think there are a couple of markets in the US that are interesting for MLB to explore (Charlotte, Nashville, and i'd love to see a place like Louisville given a shot) along with the Montreal/Vancouver talk. Florida in general is a weak sports market for most sports. Loads of people - not all of them into sports. :hmmm:

The two city idea won't fly, but it is a testament to the fact that MLB does see Montreal as a viable market for a team to relocate to.

It's become clear that governments in Florida aren't willing to partner on a new stadium for the Rays and MLB has become frustrated with lack of progress. This is really just a tactic to try and get a commitment for a new stadium. Usually owners get permission to explore relocation opportunities when the stadium negotiations falter - Pittsburgh did it in the NHL, Peter Pocklington had a midnight move to Houston planned for the Oilers, the Seattle Supersonics had permission to explore relocation after failing to come up with a deal to renovate KeyArena and ended up being sold to a group from Oklahoma City.

There is 0% chance Florida/Tampa would chip in on a $600 million open-air stadium to host 40-60 games per year, and 0% chance that Montreal would spend $900 million for a domed stadium to replace the Big-O for 40-60 games per year.

The way this is being done looks like MLB wants to play Montreal and Tampa against each other to see who ponies up for a stadium. If Montreal can put together the framework for a stadium and an actual plan, timeline, and financing to build, I think the Rays will end up in Montreal full-time. But if Tampa takes this as a wake-up call and decides to build, they'll keep the team.

The Rays will never get a new stadium - ever! The Miami taxpayer shelled out a massive amount of dough for that empty monstrosity and Tampa will not make the same mistake.

Outside of Spring Training, baseball doesn't work in Florida. Full stop.

Rays, MLB begin transition to Montreal
Steve Phillips tsn.ca June 22 2019

On Thursday afternoon, ESPN’s Jeff Passan reported a story from the MLB owners’ meetings that the Tampa Bay Rays have been given approval from commissioner Rob Manfred to explore a plan that would have their team play the first part of their season in Tampa and the rest of the year in Montreal.

The Rays have been unable to find the pathway to a new stadium in the St. Petersburg/Tampa area. Their current lease at Tropicana Field runs through 2027.

The idea behind this plan is that splitting the Rays season between these two locations will allow the team to enjoy the best weather conditions in Tampa and Montreal without needing a domed stadium in either city. For the plan to work though, new stadiums would have to be built in both locations. That seems to be less of a problem in Montreal than in Tampa.

Last month, a group in Montreal led by Stephen Bronfman (son of original Expos owner Charles Bronfman) and businessman Mitch Garber reached an agreement with a developer on a site to potentially build a new stadium for a possible MLB team.

Of course, there are so many logistical and practical questions that would have to be answered. What would the team be called? Which city would be reflected on the front of the home jerseys? How would you get free agents to join your team knowing their families will have to relocate during the season? Where would the team’s playoff games be played? Would the administrative staff in Tampa relocate or would there be a completely different staff in Montreal?

The most obvious hurdle: How does a city rationalize being 100 per cent in on a new stadium when the Rays and MLB are only 50 per cent in on their side? If the Rays can’t get a stadium built to house their team for a full season, why would a municipality in Florida build a stadium for a half-season?

Think about it this way: If this is such a good idea, why isn’t anybody else doing it? As a long-term plan, it’s flawed. It’s not possible to build two fully committed fan bases for the same team in two cities. This structure will create two half-committed fan bases, which doesn’t add up to one in this case. It adds up to something less. So, there must be some other motivation behind it.

Here’s what I really believe is going on: The Rays and MLB realize they can’t get a new stadium in the Tampa area, so they’re starting the transition. They will eventually play half the games in Tampa and half in Montreal. Bronfman’s group will buy a minority ownership stake in the club and oversee the construction of a new stadium in Montreal. The Rays will continue to push for a new facility in Tampa to match what Montreal is creating. There won’t be a commitment for a new stadium in Florida by the time the lease runs out in 2027, at which time the club will make an outright move to Montreal.

This plan ensures that the Rays won’t have to wait until 2027 to decide to relocate and then wait for the construction of a new facility. They will have a home waiting for them and a fan base that is already connected to the team. It’s brilliant.

Washington Nationals wore Expos uniforms Saturday.

Throwback Expos day at D.C. baseball game divides Montrealers — and Americans
The Canadian Press TSN.ca July 6 2019

MONTREAL — An Expos throwback day at the Washington Nationals' ballpark has divided Montrealers, with some cheering the vintage uniforms donned by players Saturday afternoon as an overdue homage and others chastising the move as an "insult" to their baseball forebears.

The Nationals — created after the Expos moved to Washington in 2005 — announced this week they would tout the powder blue away jerseys and pants along with the vintage caps sported by Montreal players in their inaugural season 50 years ago.

The gimmick fits into a night of retro theatrics at Nationals Stadium that includes 1960s pop tunes, a stylized "M" on the scoreboard, a ceremonial first pitch thrown by newly inducted Expos Hall-of-Famer Vladimir Guerrero Sr. — and, of course, some poutine and smoked meat among the concessions.

While the stadium features a "ring of honour" that includes Expos legends like Gary Carter and Tim Raines, the Nationals' northern roots go largely unacknowledged in D.C., according to observers.

"It's very pick-and-choosy and it's super weird," said Montreal-based journalist and talk radio host Dave Kaufman.

Tributes to all-stars such as Tim Wallach remain virtually absent from the park, he said. "They left it so that Montrealers, at least in my opinion, still have no love for this team."

But Kaufman isn't among the disgruntled.

"I think it's a nod to the history of the franchise," he said. "I look at this as an advertisement for the city of Montreal that's being done in the capital of the United States."

The debate comes amid rising emotions and renewed hopes for an Expos reincarnation in Quebec's biggest city. "It's these kind of side glances and small smiles," Kaufman said.

Stephen Bronfman — son of former Expos owner Charles Bronfman — has long pushed for a hometown revival. Late last month he praised a "groundbreaking" plan for the Tampa Bay Rays to split games between Montreal and Florida.

Sylvain Tremblay, who co-leads the Encore Baseball Montreal social media group, said he's "looking forward instead of thinking about past problems" — but he can't speak for his city.

"Basically they stole our team, and so on. That's the way some people think in Montreal," said Tremblay, whose group has more than 6,200 followers on Facebook and Twitter. "For them, it's an insult."

"The Washington Nationals wearing my Montreal Expos old uniform feels like a slap to the face," complained one Twitter user who says he lives in an off-island suburb.

Quebeckers aren't the only ones turned off by the marketing stunt.

Washington Times columnist Thom Loverro called it a "cheap, lazy, thoughtless promotion," indicating that any claim to a connection between the two teams seems as distasteful as American poutine.

To have Guerrero tossing the opening pitch is to "celebrate a corpse," he suggested, and posited that D.C. should look to its own past, which includes the Washington Senators who took off for Texas in the early 1970s.

Commenters tended to agree, with one asking rhetorically: "why do we give a rats arse about Montreal?" Another local tweeted that the throwback jersey "manages to disrespect both Expos fans and fans of both Senators teams" (there were two iterations).

Nonetheless, fans cheered late Saturday afternoon as Canada's deputy ambassador to the U.S., Kirsten Hillman, introduced the Nationals after the loudspeakers blared out, "Mesdames et messieurs, ladies and gentlemen, your Expos." Between plays the scoreboard piped out scenes of Expos lore, like Gary Carter celebrating a postseason victory in 1981, the only year the team reached the playoffs.

The shared bond of grief may offer a bridge between the two cities — the last two in Major League Baseball to see teams decamp for other climes.

"They know what kind of pain we have, because they had it in '71," Tremblay said. "What can you do? You don't take care of your girlfriend — now she's gone."

But hope is back in the air in Montreal, mingling with the heady musk of nostalgia.

"The Expos were my youth. They were one of the great joys of my life," Kaufman said. "I have not held that same passion about a sports team since they left.

"It didn't matter that they never won a World Series. It didn't matter that they were overall under .500 for my baseball-watching career," he said.

"They were my team and I loved them and I miss them so much."

Very interesting. Thanks for posting. I hope this will work out for Montreal.

I saw it on the highlights. Thought it was cool to see the Expos uniforms in service again, and happy that the team still recognizes its roots, despite all of the circumstances which led to the move.

But who will be paying for that new stadium in Montreal whose construction Bronfman's group will be "overseeing"? The article say Bronfman will "oversee" construction, not finance it.

The Nationals' Expos tribute registered only a very faint blip in the Quebec media over the weekend.

That's a good question. I haven't seen this spelled out anywhere in detail, if it's out there, that is. If it's not, maybe there's a reason.

My impression is that it was going to be mostly paid for by a group of investors, but also would expect there to be some lobbying to the 3 levels of government for some public money. But that is just my expectation on how it would work... or in other words, my speculation... ;)

It definitely got attention in the US baseball media. The Expos have become the baseball equivalent of the old cult classic movie that everyone loves to reminisce about.

That's not happening particularly if Bronfman is in the lead. Brookfield Properties gets hand outs from cities and provinces to build pre-leased, profitable office towers. I don't see them risking their net worth through stock value financing an expensive, money losing asset for an untested team.

Nostalgia is a very powerful thing. The Whalers suffer from the same fate in Connecticut - a nostalgic throwback with no chance of ever returning. Something nice for older people to discuss and nothing more.

Despite their lack of success with one playoff appearance, the Expos did produce (or had) their fair share of HOFamers and great players. Raines, Carter, Dawson, Guerrero, Pedro and Dennis Martinez, Rogers, Alou. I think some of the nostalgia lies with their lineup of past stars.

I think Bell would be a significant stakeholder in the Expos so I can see a large contribution towards a stadium from them. The Expos would provide them with huge content during the spring/summer and fall on TSN/RDS with 162 dates. Anytime there is another event happening simultaneously - CFL, tennis, golf, World Cup Soccer, other large scale sporting events - they can just place the Expos on their regional affiliate.

Overall, I can see financing of the stadium as follows:

$100 - $200 million from ownership
$125 - $150 million from ticket tax over 20 - 25 years
$100 - $200 million from stadium naming rights
$100 - $200 million from municipality/province

I think at least some of the nostalgia for the Expos is the lost opportunity of a serious World Series run that was cut short by the baseball strike of '94-'95. All indications were that they were in the position to make the run right to the end and quite possibly win the championship.

To have that opportunity taken away and then have the team dismantled and eventually moved away has left a feeling of loss for a lot of the fans. At least it did for me...

I could see Quebecor through TVA being a player in the Expos as well. I'm sure they would like to have French rights themselves and parcel out the rest. I'm not sure if Rogers would want in on that, but I can also see them being a fly in Bell's ointment for programming too.

It's kind of interesting about who gets precedence in the history. Is it the Expos or the old Senators (2x) For the record book, I assume it is the Expos, but historically speaking it was the old Walter Johnson Senators or the team Ted Williams managed in the 60s early 70s. Confusing if you think about it.

Do either the Twins or Rangers ever wear old Senators uniforms? (asking, I don't know). I do know that I didn't know about the Twins history until I just looked up the prior version of the Senators/Nationals. I knew the Rangers were the Senators before moving to Texas but I have no idea of any kind of historical acknowledgement they make to that part of their history.