Only Going Forward Because We Can't Find Reverse
 

So there is a lot of griping about how SSP Calgary is becoming a bit intolerable and noticing that other sites are drawing away some users here. I understand that moderation has been a problem in the last two years for various reasons but also the embedded level of hostility within the community has ratcheted up. Part of this comes down to increasing levels of partisanship and some of it is due to increased levels of agitation that come from living within a stressed economy.

So I thought I would open the floor here to discuss these issues. What do you think needs to happen? What do you suppose can smooth over the partisanship? What do you think can lighten the agitation? Let's hear some ideas. And preferably let's hash it here so we can collect these ideas.

Um... no. But I could see how someone from Edmonton might want to think that. Partially it seems like the Calgary subforum has been neglected to the point that it has reached it's current state because other people wanted to see the forum fail perhaps, to reinforce the above kinds of ideas about Calgary struggling therefore it only makes sense the Calgary sub forum would struggle too.

Development in Calgary has been remarkably steady over the past few years, and there are still the same number of people interested in development. The biggest problem has been Calgary forum moderation has been MIA over the past three years, as more people who actively hate development have come in and stirred up problems over and over and over again.

I notice there doesn't seem to be any Calgary-based moderators, and the hands off moderation over the past two/three years has led to a bunch of grumpy instigating individuals who hate condos, urban development, and wish the world was 100% full of large lot single family detached homes. These individuals constantly rehash the same commentary which inspires vapid back and forth and degrades the quality of numerous threads, including the Calgary Construction thread.

What this place needed was moderators to remove and police all the off topic debate and keep the construction thread focused on construction. These voices should never have been allowed to move in and pollute all these threads.

SRC, for better or worse, shows what happens at a properly moderated construction forum. There is no toxicity. There is no arguments. There are no stupid debates. There is simply a positive atmosphere focused on construction.

This has nothing to do with a recession and everything to do with MIA moderation.

I would agree moderation has been missing and am glad that you bring it up. mersar has been only logging in once every few weeks it looks like so that might be an issue we will have to address.

There's no arguments, etc. at SRC because it's an echo chamber. Is that what you want here? No dissenting opinions? This forum does not need policing. I would argue it doesn't even need moderation. What it does need is a lot more open-minded people and a lot less preaching from ideologues trying to indoctrinate those that don't agree with them.

There also needs to be a lot less bitching about how good this place used to be. As far as I'm concerned one of the main reasons this place is the way it is now is because every tenth post or so is like that. SRC isn't a result of this place falling apart. It was a business opportunity for someone and they ran with it. It would have happened regardless of how great this place was.

Anyway, put me down for NO censorship and I don't care if we go off topic occasionally. The world isn't black & white so would this forum be? If you don't like something skip over it.

I find it amusing to consider the context in which you invoke the concepts of "echo chambers" and "censorship".

What does it mean for a construction related forum to exist in an "echo chamber"? SRC has a list of threads detailing different construction projects, and each project has updates regarding aspects of the construction. Glazing, construction materials, spandrel are discussed. The kinds of talk that used to exist here. There isn't an "echo chamber" regarding the best type of glazing or spandrel or exterior materials. In fact, some people over there are quite critical of some of the design decisions on certain buildings.

So what is really being censored? What exactly is the echo chamber?

I find people invoke "echo chamber" and "censorship" often when they feel their contributions are being shut down which they self aggrandize as brilliant. No, it isn't a brilliant observation to point out the negative aspects of condominum living for the billionth time in a general construction thread. No, it isn't a brilliant observation to continually derail the construction thread over the investment differences between single family homes and condominiums. No, it isn't a brilliant observation to continually post links to inner city crime while never posting links to suburban crime.

Moderation should focus on keeping conversations organized and on track. Recognizing that the construction thread is being derailed for the billionth time by the same people over the same arguments is about putting those discussions in the right place (we have a thread related to this: Housing Choices - where you choose to live). Recognizing that the same people are continually stirring up garbage and trolling these threads and potentially banning them is about keeping the peace, keeping the discussion on track, and recognizing the toxicity that some people inherently bring to the discussion.

Again, people want to cry "censorship" and calling this an "echo chamber", but this is a forum dedicated to urban development. Just like you wouldn't go on a car forum and repeatedly over and over talk about how cars are terrible investments, you should never own a depreciating asset, and that biking is one true way mode of transportation, you shouldn't really go on an urban development forum and constantly stir up garbage.

Not to mention, there are clearly delinated thread topics which cover all sorts of these conversations that makes it easy for people to ignore. By polluting what used to be informative threads like the Calgary Construction thread with these asinine debates, you are making the entire forum's signal to noise ratio ridiculous, and no one in their right mind would wade through all the garbage to get to the posts that actually talk about what they care about in the first place, which is construction updates.

I will repeat, the problem is and has been over the past 3 years a lack of moderation, and as a result there has been an influx of these shit disturbers who keep rehashing the same off topic debates in the construction forum and elsewhere, and these people are clearly trolling, rules are not being enforced, and likely they should have been banned, suspended, and the conversations more aggressively deliniated along their respective thread topics so that the signal to noise ratio is maintained at a rational level.

Unfortunately, all of this is a lot of work, especially with the recent influx of trolling contributors. I can't imagine anyone outside of Calgary would bother to care enough to maintain the conversation, and having a Calgary mod who only logs in once every few weeks explains everything.

It takes an engaged moderation team to keep forums and discussions on niche topics like urban development on track, and the Calgary sub forum on this particular forum has been sorely missing it for years. As a result, many many many many valuable contributors have left.

And again, it's probably too late to change course now.

This forum used to be a lot worse. People would come here to discuss specific projects that they felt were going to negatively impact their community and they would be instantly attacked. Dissenting opinions were viciously attacked. If you didn't buy into the group think you were attacked. You have no idea what you're talking about if you think the old days were the good days. They weren't. They were horrible.

I've never found this forum to be all that big on actual construction talk. It's always been more about the project as a whole. Technical talk would likely eliminate most of us from the discussion. If that's what you want I'll check out because I have no problem admitting I know next to nothing other than offering my two cents on the overall design of buildings.

LOL! Your first sentence in the above paragraph is priceless. I can see why you were labeled as a hardcore leftist recently.

Concerning your condo example, you seem to be conveniently forgetting that others were claiming condos are always a good investment and that the vast majority were saying it's dependent on the situation. As for the crime stuff, you'll have to ask Suburbia about that.

A thread for every little diversion is not the solution. As for trolling, we obviously see things very differently. I'm not saying it doesn't happen because it definitely does. It's who's doing the trolling that we disagree on. I can live with it. I'd rather do my own moderating than have someone prescreen what I get to see. A big NO to that.

Where does it say that this forum is dedicated to urban development? And the reason people like me bring up censorship and echo chamber is because it's happened before and it's exactly what you're calling for. Are you afraid that your posts aren't as brilliant as you think they are and you're going to get called out on them?

There you go again with the hardcore leftist ideas. You might as well recommend that anyone who disagrees with you be sent to a reeducation camp to purge them of any nonconforming ideas they might.

"Engaged moderation" will result in exactly what I'm warning about. After everyone who has any dissenting ideas is either banned or driven from this place you'll be left with an echo chamber. You might think that's for the best but it isn't.

Ultimately, the Calgary Construction thread was a high profile, popular, active thread. The valuable contributors there were taking pictures of construction, talking about the construction updates, and so on.

A group of people came by, saw the activity, saw the number of eyeballs on that thread, and proceeded to inappropriately continuously stand on a soap box preaching about irrelevant topics in that thread. They exploited the activity of the thread and it's popularity to get their off topic inappropriate preachy messages out, which no one in that thread wanted to hear.

Constant talk about condo investment potential (which was brought up by suburban dwellers who hate condos), constant talk about inner city crime (precipitated by suburbia), constant talk about how houses are superior living abodes.

That isn't what people came to the Calgary Construction thread for, yet suburban dwellers kept pestering and polluting the thread, even as other threads were created to focus the irrelevant conversations elsewhere.

Why didn't the aforementioned conversations keep to the Housing Choices thread? Or the Crime Thread? Because no one visits those threads because no one wants to talk about those things on this forum. So these preachy opportunists continued to pollute the Calgary Construction thread because that is the only place people would engage them and see their posts.

They pretentiously assumed they had some brilliant messages to get out to an audience, and those silos weren't good enough to feed their unbridled egos.

Now instead of wading through all that crap, people have just left. So congratulates, you can now preach as much as you want, in this "non echo chamber". Except you are now preaching to almost an empty room.

Moderation has it's place, and it's absence is what sunk this forum.

You are making a lot of big assumptions. We have no idea what brought people to this site. For me it was a love of skyscrapers. I found the site doing a search. I had no idea that this site existed let alone that it covered so many non-skyscraper topics.

You're wrong if you think ALL of the best posters left to go to SRC. There used to be some "insider" type people here who had great info. They just disappeared and I don't think it had anything to do with this place. I think SurrealPlaces would have left regardless of what was happening here. My understanding is that SRC is a business opportunity for him and I don't blame him for taking it. I do wish he posted here more often as I enjoyed his take on things. His ability (willingness?) to post info without drenching it in ideology was much appreciated by me and I'm sure others.

Bashing the suburbs isn't going to help the Construction thread unless you're suggesting that we only talk about projects that are inner city. My vote on that is NO! I want to know about projects all over the city and I'm sure others do as well.

Insulting people isn't going to help either. This is about your third post in a row where you've insulted the intelligence of those that don't agree with you. Not cool!

Xelebes:

Thank-you for starting this thread. Indeed this has become a challenging place for discussion, and personally I feel bullied on a regular basis. No matter what I contribute, there are those who will immediately attempt to put a negative spin on what I say. If this doesn't get corrected soon, this forum (from a Calgary perspective) will continue to collapse.

That's just it. While some don't like a forum where there isn't many debating and arguing, most of us are interested in development, architecture and construction, and that's what SRC offers.
People won't want to hear thus, but I'll brutally honest. I doubt things can be reversed here. Someone said this in an earlier post and they were dead on - the people still here and still posting only want debate, and those who have left want development, architecture and construction. Those who have left have found what they want, and there's no reason to come back. I'll probably check in here once in awhile, but for the most part it's pointless as I am finding everything I'm interested in at SRC.

Being told to shut the fuck up, etc. is totally unacceptable. That kind of shit should not be allowed period.

I don't always agree with what you have to say but I do appreciate your input, especially your Stoney Trail posts and the historical background you provide on it and other roads in the area. I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. I would just keep posting. Don't be silenced by those that have issues with what you say.

I believe the entire Calgary subforum is similar to the Connect2Edmonton forum in a nutshell. There are a variety threads that attract people from all walks of life, it doesn't surprise me that some suburban forumers will start commenting in the Calgary Construction thread. The Calgary subforum needs an active moderator as I (being an Edmontonian) hardly ever post here, let alone read anything.

I just want to be clear and say I don't have a problem with suburban forumers. There are many suburban forumers in the Calgary section which are great contributors. speedog, rollerstud98, and so on.

It might not be obvious to those who live in Edmonton and don't really follow the Calgary sub forum very much, but there is a very specific cohort of suburban forumers who are addicted to drama, constantly derail threads, and have ruined without hope the Calgary Construction thread.

If the Calgary forum had an active mod, these people could have been warned, suspended, possibly banned. Instead, they drove away a large part of this sub forum, increased the toxicity, to now the Calgary sub forum is actually more toxic than the Canada forum. An amazing situation for those who have been paying attention.

What exactly was hardcore leftist in what he said? It’s true. “Echo chamber” is used by the same people who troll while accusing everyone else of trolling and also sometimes use terms like “libtard”.

I actually kind of agree with this but feel that there are certain forumers that should have been banned long ago. Suburbia’s been better lately but he is definitely one of them along with Bad Grizzly and some of the newer members like Northern.

It’s implicit. Anyone who’s ever creeped this site for any amount of time before joining can see that.

There you go again. What did he say that was so radically leftwing? What, because he can string together a coherent sentence and make a compelling argument he’s one of them “fancy” and intellectual “elites”?

Corndogger is a troll who is stalking me and only posting ridiculously toxic rhetoric against almost everything I say. He's not worth engaging.

Maybe I enjoy debate but more than that I feel loyalty to this site. I’ve been here almost a decade now and have met many awesome people. I wish we could have a happy medium of construction updates mixed with some debate. SRC just doesn’t seem to have the same soul.

The reason the Calgarypuck hockey section stays laser focused on hockey, the Tech forum laser focused on Tech, Food & Entertainment laser focused on just that, with thousands of active members, is because it's heavily moderated. There's only been the occasional bare minimum moderation here which was not to force members to follow any ground rules but to just delete a few insulting or confrontational posts and shuffle off topic posts now and then to another section.

There nothing wrong with a little tangential conversation that's bound to happen amongst regular members like the Great Cupcake Debate of '08 but when things get to the point of the majority of the members arguing about American politics and leftist this, righty that, it's too late.

This place used to be one where everyone's main purpose here was to share a similar interest (construction, planning, transit, infrastructure, etc). Most also contributed as much to the information and updates as they took away from the forum. That is not happening now.

Only other thing, sorry suburbia but you played the part of some antagonistic character here for years, which morphed into a period of veiled sarcastic comments that no one understood, to now being unsure of the few users left who exactly you can get a rise out of. I can't believe you're seriously complaining about being bullied when you've been poking everyone with a stick.

Now you're painting yourself as a victim because I don't agree with your opinions nor your take on what's happened here? Oh, and you're trying to silence me. Sounds like very familiar tactics used by certain groups.

I'll add to the calls that it's primarily the total lack of moderation that's been the death knell here.. I'm all for off topic conversation, but it doesn't really belong in the construction thread (I know I've made water-cooler grade posts there too..)

SRC is a great photo gallery, but there isn't all that much interesting conversation there. I find the debate to be much more lively here, even if it does descend into some familiar loops at times (and everyone who plays is guilty..)

we just need a couple of active mods to file any off-topic chat into appropriate threads, will help bigly!

they will have their work cut out at first, but eventually people's habits will change to posting in the right threads

given the slower pace of construction and related chatter, wonder if a flatter format like the Edmonton subforum would be a better fit for Calgary now?

That's because the conversation is all about construction and development. I like the photos, but I also find that's where all the info is, and it's not that the conversation is boring, it's because it's civil, and people here don't get that concept. I agree this site does have more interesting conversations at times, and it's great entertainment watching the usual morons duke it out but I'm usually not looking for debates about unions and public art, and whatever other bullshit topic comes up. I can go to Reddit for that.

ugh.. never go to reddit. avoid that and as much social/broadcast media as possible for a month and you won't believe how much cleaner your head feels :cheers:

inversely, it's why I like SSP. if I'm interested in learning about what's being built in a particular city, I can come browse the thread, ask questions, etc.. and there is at times a wealth of knowledge here. I can't say for myself, but I'm guessing construction and development news doesn't get huge coverage in broadcast media..

in any case, it's good to have both sites. while I appreciate all the efforts put into SRC, I just can't be bothered to sign up for an account when the banter essentially consists of googleable questions and thanks for the pics posts



as a slight tangent, an interesting read on techniques used to slide forums, etc.. wouldn't have thought add revenue from a place like this would be worth it? but as the world constantly shows, there's no limit to the depth of strange..

https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm

Somewhat ironically on this very topic about moving forward, Corndogger has invoked cries of "echo chambers" and "censorship", called people "extreme left wingers", and proceeded to pretend that anyone who calls him out as a troll is "playing the victim card".

This is exactly the over the top toxic rhetoric which has permeated this sub forum, and been allowed to run rampant. It seems the only moderators who are around and checking in are from Edmonton, who have zero context about how bad things have gotten, and are too afraid and pussy footing around to actually delete these toxic posts, call people out on their BS, and actually moderate the forum.

As such, this place will continue it's slide, and these voices preaching about echo chambers and censorship can enjoy yelling at the empty room.

Interesting. It's the opposite experience for me. I go to SRC when I want to learn what being built and to find out about new projects. The only time I was ever finding out about new projects is when people would post links to surprise. lol. I find it great for knowledge. I've noticed architects and developers have been posting there....something that used to happen here, but hasn't for ages.

As for Reddit, yeah, it's beyond ridiculous. I haven't been there for a few years, but it actually caused me to lose sleep. Never again!

...

You're saying the same crap in every post. Ask your scriptwriters for new content and to do some research. Better yet, stop targeting me. You're not going to get what you want by demonizing me or anyone else here.

Ironically the mods have done at least some censorship. They deleted my post where I criticized the mods for not doing enough. Lol.
I told them it wasn’t just this thread that was toxic, some of the people over at skyrise left because of the Canada section and because it wasn’t moderated properly. That post magically disappeared :sly:

SSP used to be a place where you get info, but it doesn’t seem like it much these days, and instread finding that SRC is where I’m getting all the info, and none of it googleable. Part of it is people who are members there share info through private messages, I’ve seen piles of renderings haven’t been made public, people here at SSP probably haven’t even heard of the projects let alone seen the renderings.
Anyhow, sorry I don’t mean to drag this into an SSP versus SRC debate, but I wanted to point out that my experience there has been much different. I plan on keeping my accounts at both places, but SRC will be my go to site.

Are you still yammering on? Don’t you have anything better to do?

I can say that the post(s) was/were off-topic and I was trying to get the thread back on topic. Here, such posts are on-topic so they will most likely not be deleted.

Yes you are. I miss the days where you made yourself scarce on this site.

Look at you go. Talk about having blinders on. The "suburbs" are evil crowd were just as bad. That's the point. There are so many experts here that think their point of view is the only one and loose their sh#t when someone disagrees with them. Both the inner city and the burbs have their good points and their bad points. For me it just comes down tho where you are in life that one works better than the other but you can't have that kind of on the fence pinion here because people like your omnipotent point of view.

I suppose that I qualify as a long-time user of this forum (although admittedly I'm more of a lurker than an active poster). I certainly miss the old days when the Calgary Construction thread was a great blend of construction updates, heated discussion, and even some news-breaking. There certainly was a sense of community that I valued (especially after moving away from Calgary) that no longer exists.

I still think that there is a place for this forum. SRC is great for photo updates but there is essentially no debate or discussion.

Anyway, I mostly just post in the Canada and off-topic subforums in the political threads now. But I would certainly re-engage in the Calgary subforum if the quality of posting improved.

I've been to SRC a few times and there is good discussion around construction and such, better than SSP, but there isn't much else discussed there. Here you've got discussion on politics, roads, the new arena, weather and sports, and others things. I find the discussion here has more variety.

I agree. While I would like to see a few members disappear, and be able to wipe away posts now and then, there would be no point to the forum, if that's the only soultion.

You have to ask yourself, what kind of forum is it where someone has to constantly control the content? Censoring is a band-aid method to a symptom. If the forum can't stand on its own with the members it has, it has a whole other problem.

The problem is you're no different. Everyone on here is accusing others of being trolls, when their opinion doesn't match theirs.

I'm committed to SSP. :cheers: I like me some spicy conversation.

It was interesting for me. I stayed away for some weeks / couple months - and when I returned, I still found certain forumers complaining about me spoiling things, and I look back at that period and it was among the worst. You know, it goes back to the adage - if forumers have something to contribute or something nice to say, great, but otherwise, we need to question when we post.

This is equal parts Trump level "whataboutism" combined with absurd revisionist history.

Can you name a poster who repeatedly spammed the Construction Thread with links to suburban crime? No? I can name one who spammed it with urban crime.

Can you name a poster who repeatedly sidetracked the Construction Thread with talk about the positives of real estate investing in condominiums? No? Well I can name one who spammed the negatives of condo investments.

The fact is the nature of this forum as a place to discuss mainly urban development means that it would be generally harder for those who are interested in urban development to troll. Their interest by it's very nature would lead to productive conversations about developments.

Those who are aggressively opposed to it, to the inner city lifestyle, and so on, are by their very nature more prone to preach, as if they have some grand lesson to teach the world about their brilliant insights into why inner city living is bad.

These people are more prone to send a variety of threads wildly off topic with their soap box preaching.

In either case, moderation should be on top of it. If an urban dweller attacks the suburbs in a manner not related to the thread, it should be removed. Same with the reverse.

Saying "both sides" is missing the point entirely, and yet another in a long line of "echo chamber", "censorship", "extreme left winger", "playing the victim" and so on rhetoric that is absurdly toxic, not helpful, and only sows the seeds of discord.

It kind of blows my mind that Xelebes took the trouble to remove all references to SRC in the construction thread, yet left pages and pages of toxic unhelpful posts.

If I could make a suggestion to the mods, it seems that none of you really have context into the problem individuals, why everybody is pointing the finger at moderation, and why what is happening to the Calgary forum is solely a problem with moderation.

If I could recommend a solution, it would be to pick 5-6 cool headed individuals from the Calgary forum and make them mods. Give them the power to delete off topic posts. Give them the power to issue warnings. Maybe don't give them the power to suspend/ban, but allow them to escalate a suspend/ban decision to someone else if necessary.

People who still contribute to this forum know whats going on, and know how to make it better. Pick 5.

I think guys like Calgarian, speedog, Habanero, RollerStud98, design-mind, milomilo, BlaineN, msmariner, DizzyEdge would all be good choices. Let us self organize. This Edmonton level "checking in" moderation isn't working.

Good thing your opinion is the only one that matters. ;)

I'd be willing to be a moderator.

I do agree. It's been a cold bath for us when we realised mersar had been kept busy with other things for such a long time. I don't know mersar's story, whether it is his workload ratcheting up or family life consuming more of his time, but it is an embarrassment for us here.

This used to be a daily part of my routine since 2001. Nothing too new to add to the discussion, but in case it helps to show some consensus, here are the reasons I personally rarely visit here any more and have moved my attention to the other forum. The economy has zero to do with it.

1. There were 2/3 posters on here who were allowed to created an absolutely toxic environment. Any attempt at actual discussion was quickly derailed with drive-bys, or trollish "questions" meant only to stir the pot. With zero moderation, these trolls were allowed to flourish and killed the good vibes.

2. Because of this toxic environment and zero moderation, the posters who added the most insight and had the deepest connections to the industry left or rarely post. There was less incentive to visit because of this.

3. Surrealplaces left this forum and took his fantastic updates...to be replaced by shitty and poorly sized cell phone shots taken from cars. There's no more eye candy.

He's a lot different. O-tac is one of the biggest trolls here. He'll carpet bomb this place with attack posts and then turn around and blame others for ruining the forum for being off topic.

Not trying to pick on you specifically, but I think this is one of the problems with the forum. There's a misconception that there's nothing at SRC but photo updates and therefore the problem here has to be trolls that cause off topic debates. That's certainly part of it, but not all of it. If it's regarding construction or development, there's actually much more discussion at SRC than there is here. There isn't as much debate, but there is constant difference of opinion, and it tends to be civil for some reason. It's one of the reasons I like to go there. I don't think folks realise how many people have left to that site, and are contributing there.

I came to this site originally because SSP was the only site in town that had construction and development info. I didn't come for the all the other topics, and the lively debate, civil or uncivil. Because SSP was the only place around town, you had members ranging from Suburbia, to Josh White, to Rusty Van something, to Corndogger to Fusili. All kinds of people held together because they had no other choice.

SRC came along and it was more what I was originally looking for, and I know that's the case with a some of others. SRC has a few members who were lurkers here, and lurked because they only wanted specific info.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to switch to SRC, those who like SRC became active there a while ago, and I doubt those still here will switch, it's not what they're looking for. For those here it might help to understand why some of us left. Part of it's because of trolls and off topic debate, and part of it is because there's another site more focused on what were interested in. I respect that SSP has a large variety of topics and for those still here, that's what they want.

I wasn't going to say this before because I know he was well liked, but I always thought SP leaving is one of the reasons for the fall of the forum. Part of this is on him.

To sum it up. IMO, reasons for why the forum's taken a dive.
Lack of moderation
A half dozen trolls and useless personalities
The economy being slow.
Surrealplaces

Stop talking about SRC, you, yourself said that no more people are likely to switch over, so it’s a non-issue. Let’s stick to what’s happening at SSP.

That’s rich coming from you Dogger.

Great plan as long one of the moderators isn’t one of the following
Suburbia
Deepstar
Corngigger
Bad Grizzly
Geotag
Octacular
Suburgatory
Northern

Judging by all the arguments in the past those guys are too biased to be a moderator.

Nm