89 Park Street | ? | 2x31 fl | Proposed
 

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...ion-crossroads

Philpott parishioners at $13.4-million crossroads

A plan to take Philpott Memorial Church into the future is finally ready, and after 30 years of debate, it’s time for a decision.

Parishioners of the downtown church, which is more than a century old, are considering whether to tear it down and rebuild in an ambitious project that could cost as much as $13.4 million and take years to complete.

It’s a decision that’s exciting and scary at the same time, said church administrator James Dean, and the discussions have been ongoing “for the last few years.”

This will be at least the third time Philpott has considered a renovation or a rebuild in the past 30 years. In 1991, the congregation did not support a renovation proposal that would have cost $3 million.

Dean and the church’s steering committee unveiled their dream — called A Kingdom Build — to about 30 parishioners on the weekend and will hold more information sessions this week. He admitted at this point it’s hard to tell if the plan has the full support of the congregation.

“One of the things we are doing is getting permission for fundraising,” Dean said. “Nothing will be confirmed until (a vote) on the 28th of April.”

Senior pastor Lane Fusilier said he preferred not to speak outside of the church until a decision has been made.

“Everything is preliminary,” he said. “I may have some exciting things to tell you about in a couple of weeks.”

A complete rebuild is an unusual project for a church to undertake but renovating the venerable building on York Boulevard across from Copps Coliseum is not feasible, its steering committee believes.

The cost to repair the roof and ceiling of the sanctuary alone would cost about $2 million and those repairs would still not bring the facility up to city code requirements.

If approved, the project would begin with the construction of a new sanctuary/auditorium behind the church, where the parking lot sits. The first phase is expected to cost $4.7 million. Thier + Curran Architects Inc. of Hamilton has been hired to design the project.

One highlight of the plan is theatre-style seating for approximately 900 with state-of-the-art acoustics, audio, video and lighting. It’s hoped the new auditorium will be better for the congregation, but also used for plays and concerts for community groups.

Dean said the theatre would be an affordable, ideal downtown location for local performing arts groups. A coffee shop included in the final phase of the three-part expansion would open onto Park Street, where it could be used by the congregation and the public.

The Associated Gospel Church typically has 300 to 400 adults attending one of two sermons on Sundays, with parishioners who have roots in more than 50 countries.

The downtown church is also active in the community with programs such as cooking and crafts for new Canadians and men’s soccer. During the winter, a drop-in program offers hot chocolate and cookies for the homeless.

Sanford Avenue School is being demolished, the 140-year-old All Saints Church is coming down soon, and now this.....Why can't Hamilton learn from it's past....

well at least the congregation is staying downtown, and in a particularly depressed area. I also understand the problem with some of these churches - what do you do with them afterwards? I'd love to have far fewer churches on the heritage list and far more commercial blocks (ie the Coppley building). If they build a new church there with a nice design and no giant parking lot then I'd be happy.

^Would a new church not require a veritable sea of parking or is that only with residential and commercial properties?

The plans:

http://www.getchurch.org/files/getch...L%20Mobile.pdf

It looks nice and seems to interact with the street better.

I have a hard time getting excited about two-storey builds downtown (the block is zoned for up to 30 storeys), especially quad-phased ones, but it's better than most of what is generally proposed downtown. Hopefully they get the whole thing completed.

As far as parking considerations, Philpott owns the lot next to Coppley and is willing to purchase another lot as demand merits. The Case to Proceed notes:

"For the last several decades, we have been blessed with abundant on-site parking. It has been so abundant that we have rented out the excess during the week, which has become a significant source of revenue for us. Nevertheless, as the A Kingdom Build project has progressed, we have realized that we need most of our property for ministry space. We had to make a choice between the convenience of on-site parking and the necessity of accessible ministry areas. We chose the latter. As a downtown church, there are several transportation options that reduce parking requirements.

We also own the parking lot across the street. We could envision reserving that lot for seniors and families with small children. Arrangements for additional local parking can be made, as there are several lots within a two-block radius of Philpott. We have free use of one of the city lots just one block away. If required in the future, we may consider the purchase of another lot close at hand."

The current building is nice but it's horrible for street presence along York, a solid wall.

I like Phase 1 of the project...
http://i45.tinypic.com/9a4okh.jpg


but then Phase 2 will happen and the old church has to be demolished...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps2a3ba4af.png



The whole project (Phase 2) is nice, but if they are going to start from scratch why not buy an empty lot or a lot with something that should be demolished and build it there? I'm sick of people saying their only option is to demolish buildings and start new downtown.



There are options to save the church:

- Stop at Phase 1, reuse the old church and build an addition on the north side.

or

- Sell the church to someone that knows how to reuse buildings (like the new owner of the James St Baptist Church), and build a new church somewhere else.

on the parking issue, isn't there already a silly rule that church goers can park on the street and not get fined? Or is that an urban legend?

There's also a parking structure across from the library at Macnab. That's probably also free on Sunday.

Philpott Church rebuild fundraising plan gets resounding ‘yes’ from congregation

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...m-congregation

A multimillion-dollar proposal to demolish and rebuild a historic downtown church has been supported by its congregation.

Pastor Lane Fusilier of Philpott Memorial Church said the proposal to begin fundraising received the support of 90 per cent of the congregation. A decision on whether to rebuild the more than 100-year-old church on York Boulevard across from Copps Coliseum will be dependant on the success of the fundraising plan.

The project could cost as much as $13.4 million.

A complete rebuild is an unusual project for a church to undertake but a renovation was not feasible, the project’s steering committee believes. Repairs to the roof and ceiling of the sanctuary alone would cost about $2 million and would still not bring the facility up to city code requirements.

Before demolishing the current building, a new sanctuary/auditorium would be built behind the church, where the parking lot sits now. The first phase is expected to cost $4.7 million. Thier + Curran Architects Inc. of Hamilton was hired to design the project.

The plan includes the construction of theatre-style seating for approximately 900 with state-of-the-art acoustics, audio, video and lighting. It’s hoped the new auditorium will be better for the congregation, but also used for plays and concerts for community groups.

The Associated Gospel Church typically has 300 to 400 adults attending one of two sermons on Sundays, with parishioners who have roots in more than 50 countries.

While the building is beloved by some in the community, demolition is permitted because the building is not designated under the Ontario Heritage Act.

What mixed feelings I have.

At first galne, I hate the look, especially when compared to the magnificent old building.

I loved the descriptions of what some of the intent is. ( central, open atrium, cafe, open space - piazza, glass stalls)

Thirdly: Isn't this supposed to be a church? :???:

What kind of world do we live in when churches don't even look like churches? I guess this congregation isn't particularly proud of itself.

I disagree. This is a great example of modern urban design, meant to bring people in, inviting to the street, unlike most old churches meant to loom and create a sense of grandeur. If there's only so much heritage capital going around then we should be designating the entire Gore before all these useless churches trying to do Rome circa 13th century.

One where architectural idioms are varied and heritage is subjective.

Spec: "The Associated Gospel Church typically has 300 to 400 adults attending one of two sermons on Sundays, with parishioners who have roots in more than 50 countries."

Also, Matthew 18:20.

Oh, Matthew. He did have a way with words, though I'm more of an Ezekiel fan, particularly 23:19-21.

Where architecture is concerned, I'm a real stickler.

I like my houses to look like this:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...4/DSCN3582.jpg

My stadiums like this:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...ardStadium.jpg

My commercial like this:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...4/DSCN3524.jpg

My parks:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...4/DSCN3494.jpg

My banks:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...4/DSCN3491.jpg

And my churches like this:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...74/stpauls.jpg

Architecture firms are under pressure to do things differently, I'm sure. But the art and science of architecture was perfected many, many years ago, so for an architect to suggest anything different is just a tad presumptuous.

The great I.M. Pei felt and still feels strongly about changing the way buildings are designed. This wasn't good enough for him:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps2da4f1bc.jpg
http://www.anefian.com/makepage.pl?p...&tree=location

He felt it could be improved upon, so he built this:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps20dad451.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_City_Hall

Completely unidentifiable as a place of governance. In fact, it's impossible to guess what might be happening inside this building. No doubt something sinister, though.

We have to keep architects in check because some of them have extraordinary egos and feel they can ignore the expertise bestowed upon us over the past two thousand years. That's a dangerous thing.

Architecture should communicate with people in a very literal way - you shouldn't have to guess what sort of function it serves or how one might even gain entrance to the building (i.e. The convention centre, Hamilton Place, the former AGH, etc.).

Creativity is such a wonderful thing. I just don't see a place for it in architecture. See Paris for further elaboration on this point.

The French have always been pretty hermetic about their culture (which means that they actually value it and invest in it, whereas we tend not to). The revamp of Paris benefitted from its planner's freedom to wipe a medieval capital largely off the map and leverage the resources of an emperor, allowing him to resurrect a city in about the same time it took Hamilton to botch its Civic Square playbook and York Boulevard in the bargain. (Apparently our people only skimmed the Haussmann Plan Coles Notes.)

Even so, Paris is an imperfect time capsule.

I'm a fan of the house paragon you cited. Sensitive update when the upstairs became new apartments.

Does anyone know if the exterior scaffolding at the building is because Philpott opted for renovation instead of re-building?

From a recent Forge and Foster email

180 King Street East is next to Jet Cafe.

It looks like they are selling their current lot for development just to... buy another lot for holding income from the parking?

Churches love commercial lots as they don't have to pay property taxes on the land or any income from it so it's great money to support the congregation.

It's a shame because they hold key development sites for years and rarely move on them. Their new lot is right on the LRT and is a prime development site but will likely sit as a parking lot for a while still now that they own it.

It's the same thing in Toronto, a couple of prime development sites on the east end of downtown are owned by churches and never get developed. They are basically the last surface lots in the city without active development applications at this point.

Funny, I was just walking past this lot the other day and wondered when a condo would get built there.... right on the new LRT line. Unfortunate to hear it will likely sit as parking, unless the Church has a plan to make some money off it and flip it to a potential developer.

Seems like they formalized their sale the same week that HUPEG talked to the Spec about wanting to relocate the shelter at the Booth Centre. Coincidence?

The article for those that missed it.

If we got a shiny new condo tower on the location of the mens shelter and also a development that incorporated the church, it would completely change the look and feel of York in that area. Hate to say it, but that shelter really needs to go to a more suitable location.

This would be incredible. Let's hope you're onto something Johnny.

Kind of sucks the York St property got sold to such a blegh real estate company. They seem to build a bunch of suburban garbage. Look forward to, shoppers drug Mart, or crappy hotel with surface parking, or some plaza like downtown Hamilton is stuck in the 1960s.

Maybe this will be their first foray into decent quality urban development, but first developments are always mediocre because they've got to play it safe and build up equity.

They don't have it advertised on their site but they are actually partnering with Coletara on a lot of projects downtown already. I believe they are involved in Apex Condos, for example.

You sure about this? Charitable status is very carefully scrutinized. An income-generating property that doesn't serve the charitable organization's primary function/mandate couldn't be tax-exempt, could it??

Really hoping the church is speculating on the 180 King ST E parking lot because that's prime land for development (commercial or residential). No one builds churches anymore and income generation seems silly at this location unless they're buying it for film usage (film crews park here and/or film here a lot), I can't see another reason. It's never full.

Sold. And the church bought the Lincoln Alexander Centre to move there, plus adjacent units.

Hopefully 2 years from now the buyer can begin redevelopment very soon after the church moves out. Can the new owner proceed with the planning and submit documents to the city before then? Or do they need to wait until the property is vacant?


Downtown Hamilton’s Philpott congregation sells York Boulevard church
Buyer has plans for high-density, mixed-use development

https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilto...rd-church.html

Teviah Moro
The Hamilton Spectator
Tue., Jan. 25, 2022

https://images.thestar.com/EaP901qNN...h/philpott.jpg

After 120 years, Philpott Memorial Church is leaving York Boulevard but staying in downtown Hamilton.

The congregation has sold the majestic, grey, brick sanctuary and purchased the former Lincoln Alexander Centre on King Street East.

The move just a few blocks away will help the church continue its mission to help vulnerable people in the core, lead pastor Russell Bartlett said Monday.

“Our heart is in the downtown,” Bartlett said.

Meanwhile, purchaser Aaron Collina plans to turn the church property into a high-density, mixed-use development.

The sale price was “well over” $11 million per acre, John MacNamara of Blair Blanchard Stapleton said via email but declined to disclose the exact figure.

At 2.76 acres, it’s the largest downtown development land sale since 2019, said MacNamara, who noted the deal involved seven properties, six parties and three brokerages but didn’t detail each one.

It’s too early to say whether the church will be incorporated into the final design of the Collina’s development, he added.

...

Ultimately, the congregation decided it made more sense to sell and relocate to 160 King St. E., the site of the Lincoln Alexander Centre, Bartlett said.

The church also bought two neighbouring commercial buildings: 164 and 168 King St. E.

As part of the deal, the congregation can remain at 84 York Blvd. until 2024, giving it time to complete renovations at its future sanctuary.

...

full story here

In under 5 years this area is going to be totally unrecognizable.

they can get approvals while Philpott is still there. We'll probably see a site plan application here in the next few months.

Totally unrecognizable indeed! Between this, FOC, Hamilton Centre redevelopment, plus whatever HUPEG does with the lots they got from the city -- so much change in what's been a relatively sleepy part of the core for sooooo long (and given the sleepiness of the rest of downtown from the 1980s to a few years ago that's saying something!)

Thanks re: approvals. Hopefully the new owner does something, and hasn't just promised to do something, as we've seen with some other church purchases. With all the other stuff happening property values will rise, so I worry it was just bought to be flipped once the building/site is worth even more.

I kind of always hoped this would be used as a music venue... I hope they incorporate the building in some way. It's kind of a beautiful building with a great presence on the street.

I wonder if the property sale includes the parking lot adjacent to the building, or the parking lot on the other side of Park. I know the church owns at least one of those. If it sold the parking lot beside, that could be the mixed use section attached to the older church.

My understanding is that it includes the parking lot to the north of the church at Park and Vine.

I just hope the planned sharp increase in interest rates this year doesn't make all of these projects financially not viable.

Usually these types of projects are not headed by idiot investors trying to time the market or with a bad idea of the market. Not everything always comes to fruition because the margins are modestly tight, but they usually plan very far out to ensure a project is viable any time within the next decade before starting.

This is why reducing costs to developers like removing parking minimums, reducing the requirement for dumb amenity spaces like unused "whisky bar" and 5 party rooms, and shortened approval timelines is a key element to tackling the housing crisis. It would increase the number of projects that become financially viable.

Regardless, they have likely though far ahead of interest rate increases. I think Hamilton is nearing the point of becoming self-sustaining without a huge migration from Toronto and low interest rates. Hamilton has become desirable enough in its own right.

Also the parking lot to the North of this building is massive at nearly 0.325 hectares almost the same size as the Marquee residence old parking lot.

Yeah I really hope they incorporate the existing building - it's rather square already so it wouldn't be out of the question to see a condo erupt out the top like some alien monster lol..

Also how many buildings with ionic columns are left in this city..? And isn't this covered under heritage protection and the fact they would have to preserve the facade due to its age, like the william thomas building? Hrmm...

It is not a listed property for designation. It is registered though. Even a désignation doesn't protect a building it seems though. The Lyric Century theatre is designated (you'll notice it's an empty field) though I don't know when it was designated, before or after demolition.

Some renderings of what is planned for the site...

https://i.imgur.com/JclDYq9.jpg
source

https://i.imgur.com/ij2ALZz.jpg
source

https://i.imgur.com/wLP7XyJ.jpg
source

https://i.imgur.com/Nkt6Ugf.jpg
source

https://i.imgur.com/5VUSf5m.jpg
source

https://i.imgur.com/umzHs7R.jpg
source

That's a shame. I like the additional people this will bring downtown, but I think not incorporating the church structure is a HUGE wasted opportunity.

Oh...

I'm speechless, what an unfortunate decision. It's the epitome of bland replacing a historic property.

If they could increase the density of the north side of the lot to save the church, I'd much prefer that. This is a perfect spot to go above the 30 storey limit because there's nothing else around it to shadow.

Very cool, great density, but don't see an ounce of the existing building.

Amazing!! Get it built.

SERIOUSLY??? Theyre bulldozing ANOTHER historic building? For THIS??? I think a petition needs to go against this.

Let me know, I'll be petitioning for increased density along the North edge of the site to justify saving the church.

You go dude - yeah I am just outraged. I thought we had things in place to preserve pre-confederation buildings - but maybe it's not pre-confederation? I can't remember when this was built.. but regardless.. unfortunately not enough people may stick up for this one...


fwded this to heritage watch hamilton - ugh, still so mad.. have we learned nothing? The value of hamilton is in our historic buildings..

Apparently very early 1900s is not old enough to matter.

Well regardless I sent it to heritage watch hamilton - if anyone can think of anyone else to send it to please feel free to - we were able to prevent the gore buildings from being demolished, maybe we can for this one too.

I'm pretty sure age is less important that historical and architectural value.