Professional Baseball or Basketball - what would do better here?
 

Just a quick poll - do you think a MLB team or a NBA team returning to Vancouver would be successful - and which team would be better.

Let's assume they have an average team on the field/court, and an average owner in both cases.

For a variety of reasons, most of which have been discussed on this forum, an MLB team would never work in Vancouver.

It would be interesting to see if baseball gained popularity in China, if it would have any impact on popularity here.

Add "neither" as a poll option, and I'll be able to give my $0.02.

The NFL would do well here. Of course this would mean the death of the BC Lions.

"More" suggests a relative equation and not an absolute so your option of neither would make no logical sense.

:shrug:

Anyway I voted basketball as I'm pretty sure a team today would be one of the more successful ones in the league.

Where's the Baseketball option?

http://www.impawards.com/1998/posters/baseketball.jpg

Both.

2.6 million in the lower mainland. People want more than just hockey and football.

Probably Basketball, but I'd rather see Baseball. Basketball would be much much easier as a sufficient venue already exists, but it would have to compete in the same season as the Canucks. I think we're just fine the way we are. A Triple-A baseball team linked either to the Mariners or Jays would be great.

Ah the good ol' NBL...

Are people too old to remember basketball attempt no. 1? Even if we got competent management, uneducated ghetto Americans see Vancouver as Siberia. Even Toronto can't keep talent and they are much "better" geographically and melanin-y.

From Steve Francis's wiki: "He publicly announced that he did not want to play for the Grizzlies, citing the distance from his Maryland home, taxes, endorsements, and God's will."

Toronto was mentioned in a few songs by Lil Wayne, Drake, etc. to name a few. Vancouver? Um... Moka Only has a song about the Canada Line.

It's called marketing.

And what players hasn't toronto kept.


Carter was here for some time
Bosh was here for some time.

McGrady was not traded because of the market, because he was in the shadow of Carter

So what players has Toronto not kept.

The appeal of MLB in Vancouver should not be underestimated. Baseball has always been a very popular and widely-played sport in Vancouver, which has hosted either a high-level or major league-affiliated professional team since the 1920s. And Vancouver has always been a hotbed of baseball talent, sending an inordinate number of players to the major leagues. Of the current Canadian players in MLB, a strong plurality come from Metro Vancouver. Little League and competitive youth baseball is highly developed in British Columbia. In fact, British Columbia became the first place outside of the U.S. to join Little League Baseball, joining in 1951. Langley has sent a team to the World Series in South Williamsport, Pennsylvania almost every year for the last decade, including this year again. Langley home-grown boy Matt Lawrie is causing a sensation in Toronto. Thousands of Lower Mainland residents have been travelling 3 hours down to Seattle each night this week to see Lawrie and the Blue Jays, making Safeco Field feel more like a home game for the Jays than for the Mariners. (Watch tonight's game to see what I mean.) A Vancouver MLB team featuring a young Canadian star from the Lower Mainland could be a very potent and popular enterprise.

I have trouble imagining MLB in Vancouver...

What would be a sufficient attendance and viewership to be considered a "success"? 20,000 per weekday game? 30,000? Would a TV viewership of 100,000 be sufficient to justify televising most games?

The Grizzlies averaged around 60,000 viewers per TV game (about 3/4 of games were televised) and about 16,000 attendance for 40 home games. Those numbers were above average for the league most years.

MLB would have more than twice as many games and triple the stadium capacity.

I just don't see how there would be enough revenue to pay team salaries and expenses and generate a small profit.

Exactly....

There's an important distinction between the novelty of a 3-game series in which (say 5,000) fans make the trip across the border for the Blue Jays versus an 81-game home schedule in which attendance needs to average over 20,000 per game at a minimum to make it viable. In fact, most people I know that wind up going to Mariners games will do so once every couple years as a novelty, but aren't die-hard baseball fans.

Do you really think that a small-market city like Vancouver with a variety of outdoor summer activities and a large Asian population that doesn't care about baseball can generate the same level of attendance as Seattle? or even Toronto?

It's a much different game than football or basketball, since it is played in the summer and has a much longer schedule. MLB is much better suited to American cities where there is nothing better to do. It's just difficult to sustain interest for 81 home dates.

I could go on an on about economic feasibility, Vancouver's weather etc etc, but I honestly would put money that we would get an NBA franchise, or even NFL, before MLB.

Koreans and Taiwanese like their baseball.

Vancouver has been mentioned in songs by Nicki Minaj, and the Outlaws ft Tupac. Canadian artists don't count because if they did every song of Kardinal Offishal would have 30 references to T.O. :P

Oh and Basketball because we have the stadium and even when we had a crappy team the stadium still had close to 10,000 people in it. Now good teams in the states can't draw that many sometimes. Both the NBA and MLB product has been lacking for a while.

I think both pro basketball and pro baseball would do well here (major leagues, of course). But because baseball has no salary cap, I would find it hard for a professional baseball franchise here in Van, to compete with the likes of the other franchises in MLB. It would have to go through the Blue Jays of building young, and keeping the core together. With that being said, I think basketball would have a better chance of succeeding the second time around. I know some people here in Van, are still bitter about the 6 disasterous seasons - but let's forget the past, and embrace the future, and not complain about what was, but have enough vision to see what could be. I'd be thrilled if an NBA franchise came to Vancouver, and of course, for that franchise to be managed well (not like the Stu Jackson era). People will give it a chance, if management is competent, and they see gradual improvements (we didn't see that when the Grizzlies were here - it was 6 seasons of tremendous losses, 19 in a row at one point).

I'd love to see both MLB and NBA here in this beautiful town of ours.

One bonus for baseball is their season doesn't overlap with the Canucks. Imagine how much attention the "Grizzlies" would have got in Vancouver last year? Yes, baseball would also hurt for the first part of the season, but it wraps up the regular season right when the NHL resumes, and a Vancouver MLB team in the playoffs would likely dominate the sports media for the month of October if it were to happen.

It will always be a hockey-first City. That's a given, but #2 is up for grabs. Sorry, the CFL still isn't "major-league" and the MLS is a bit higher than the CFL due to the fact it's an American league mostly. But I think a Vancouver MLB team run properly in an awesome ball park could easily grab the #2 spot. Basketball would do well also, BUT they are always going to be facing up against the Canucks.

#2 will always be up for grabs in this town. You have the Lions, and the 'Caps as the two teams that are competing for that second spot in the hearts of Vancouverites. With that being said, the NBA is still a more plausible and realistic shot here in Van., only because of that issue with stadium. building a new ballpark isn't going to fly here, especially after a newly renovated BC Place, where government just spent half a billion dollars on it. I understand your points, though, and yeah, it'd be awesome to have a MLB team here, but I just cannot see it being done 10-20 years from now at the very least.

An NBA franchise may go head on head with the Canucks, but like you've said, being #2 isn't all that bad. There will be support for the NBA franchise, it's just that more of it will be going to the Canucks, where it should be, because of the hockey mad town we're in. that's just reality.

And having a ballpark out in the suburbs just doesn't make much sense. Having the stadium in downtown Van., or nearabouts the area, will make more sense, as businesses are down there.

I think Basketball would've been successful had it never left, but it did and I think it burnt many bridges when it did. I just don't see it coming back for a generation or so, I'm sure Seattle will get their team back before we do.
I think we could support the team though if we get one.
Baseball on the other hand I don't think there's a market for here, not one big enough to support it's own team. We could certainly entertain a seris ever other year though.
I think we should give our support to the Lions and Whitecaps first and keep them healthy instead.

I think basketball would be successful here should it come back. I think a lot of people don't give enough credit to the asian community here - where with Indo-Canadians, and Chinese-Canadians (immigrants - Taiwanese, Philippinos, etc) the sport of basketball is absolutely HUGE. And we do have a dominant asian population here. It's been said time and time again, that future management of an NBA franchise (should they come here), needs to target those people groups.

I agree though, support needs to be given to the 'Caps and Lions for now, as they are our Summer pro teams. It's been a terrible Summer with regards to our pro sports teams though. The Lions are 1-6 (depending on tonight's game, they could be 1-7), and the 'Caps are not better, actually, worse, at 3-13-9. Granted, the Whitecaps are in their first season in top tier North American Soccer, but no excuses. I am hopeful, that the 'Caps will be better next year, though, with head coach, Martin Rennie (hearing good things about him, thus far).

I think if another professional sports franchise were to come to our beautiful city - it would most likely be the NBA, not MLB. MLB maybe in a couple of decades, but the NBA, I can see returning within the next 5-10 years from today.

Can't stand the CFL, but the MLS has low ratings. Of course there is the potential to grow.

This is what I'd like to see :tup:

If Winnipeg can get the Jets back, there's no reason Vancouver can't get the Grizz back.

That being said, I think MLS has a pretty decent shot at taking the #2 spot.

MLS should be No. 2, both due to the sport itself and the amount they're paying players. Eric Hassli can't continue making $900,000 a year if Vancouverites are still going to consider soccer beneath them.

I get the impression most people don't even realize the 'Caps are in a much more legit league now. PR failure.

I think people do realize that the 'Caps are in a better league. They've hammered the truth that MLS is the highest soccer league and competition in North America (which is true, it is better competition than say the NASL). But yeah, if the Lions continue to stink up their season, the 'Caps have a decent chance of taking over spot #2 in the hearts of Vancouverites.

To be honest, I have not seen very much advertising about the Lions. Is it because they don't have a large budget for that, or what? I'm curious as to what the 'Caps will do to advertise to the consumer for next season. They need to get a soccer "name" in this town, for some people to continue going to games. Owen Hargreaves, perhaps (even though he's been injury prone)?

I think the lack of advertising this season for the Lions is because of Empire Field (perhaps for the Whitecaps as well). While neither is selling the place out they are both pretty close, not sure spending more on advertising would offer a good ROI. Will be interesting to see if that changes for next season once they have more seats available to sell.

I think advertising a bit more than they have would do them some good. They can't compete with the Canucks, we all know that, but there's barely anything from the 'Caps, since their season started, and virtually nothing on tv, or internet or email, or FB, etc., from the Lions. I don't think location (place of play) had to do anything with it. The "love" of Empire Fields has definitely gone, but it's still a nice place to be during the Summer, can't say the same when the weather starts getting cooler, and wetter. It will definitely be interesting on how they're going to advertise themselves respectfully (both the Lions and the 'Caps).

As a side note, I often wonder how MLS is going to raise their quality of play on the field. The league cannot continue to depend on European players. The league needs to grow organically - needs to produce better players from US, and Canada, and if they do attract european players to come over, how do they do that when the players are still young, and entering their prime? MLS has players like Beckham, Keane (recent signing with Galaxy), Theirry, etc., but these players are past their prime. They are well over their 30's (some entering into their late thirties). How does this change?

I agree with you. I think if Winnipeg can get their team back, there's no reason why Vancouver can't get another shot at the NBA. and this time, doing it the right way. Really, though, the only way the NBA is coming back here, is through the ownership of the Aquilini's. Aside from them, I don't see anyone else stepping up. An NBA franchise has got to be owned by CSE (Canucks Sports & Entertainment).

To clarify I didn't mean Empire Fields location being the responsible for the lack of advertising, but it's capacity. Both the teams are close to capacity so dumping a ton of money into advertising would've provided very minimal gains.

Imo, the NBA is more likely to contract then it is to expand in the immediate future, and if relocation is the desired path there are certainly a couple of cities ahead of ours in line. Like I said I believe it would work here, but I don't foresee it happening for at least another decade if not two.

I'd rather have more once a year sporting events myself, like a major tennis open, golf open, major car race etc. Stuff that puts the worlds eyes on a city for a couple of days. Looks at how much attention Quebec city gets due to it's crashed ice event. Heck I'd love to see the Red Bull air race come to either False Creek or the Burrard Inlet.

I hope David Stern recognizes how this city got ripped off. The players basically sabotaged the franchise, we had terrible ownership, not great management, shortchanged in the draft, and terrible exchange rate($).

At least let the city prove that it doesn't deserve a team. All of the conditions mentioned above have changed significantly. There is a larger international pool of players to choose from, much more dedicated owners, and a far stronger dollar. The new CBA could favour Vancouver as well.

Just FYI, baseball is huge in Japan, Korea and Taiwan as well. In fact, that is basically their national sports there. So, honestly, I see both NBA and MLB doing well here and they should have no worries attracting the huge Asian population Metro Vancouver has here.

However, I understand that realistically, probably NBA would be the most financially feasible team to have here in the next decade or two.

Why is that?

Have a facility ready to host the NBA on a moment's notice.

BC Place would be akin to the Metrodome in Minnesota - if not worse. It would work on the short term, but a baseball-only facility is needed long-term.

Why is that?

The Blue Jays have not played in a baseball-only facility for more than two decades and have no plans to play in one.

If the new BC Place is indeed configurable for major league baseball, then we have a newly-renovated, state-of-the-art facility ready to host MLB at a moment's notice too.

It's the NBA. But even that isn't likely. Although, the Grizzlies should have never left, I don't think the NBA will be very interested in having a team in Vancouver. To be honest, that's for the better. The NBA has a large amount of issues plaguing that league and its no loss to the city of Vancouver to not have that league in town. There's no way a baseball team would work in Vancouver. Toronto and Montreal could barely sustain a team, why would Vancouver be able to?


PS - Nice to see the Lions win last night. The Lions are far better than their 2-6 record indicates.

Stadium requirements for a new franchise or newly relocated team would be more stringent than an already established franchise like Toronto. There is already concern at BC Place about the height of the scoreboard. The fact is, its not a very good baseball venue. While on the other hand Rogers Arena is a good basketball venue, with willing local ownership.

Yeah. I know what you mean about the venue. I think I was trying to get across as well the advertising for the team, and the television that the 'caps would be shown. It's strange to me, that the team decided to put the 'Caps on TSN2, rather than just on TSN, or Sportsnet (for the majority of their games, I don't think that's the case, correct me, however, if I am wrong in that regards). I think the 'Caps needed as much exposure to the public about their team, and on field product as possible. Now, with the team reeling at 3-13-9, I really can't see too many people watching those games on tv. Management should have taken the approach the Canucks took (exposing their on ice product to as many people in the lower mainland as possible - through networks such as CBC, TSN, Sportsnet, etc). With that being said, I am a supporter, and will watch the 'Caps play tonight against Portland, unless it's a blowout like the DC United game.

I'm not sure a lot of people share your sentiments, but I respect your opinion on it. I think the NBA grieves that it didn't work the first time around. But the NBA is no stranger to going back to the cities it first left. Minneapolis (had the Lakers, before they moved to LA; Charlotte --> Hornets, before they left, and have the Bobcats now, etc). Basketball is a popular sport here in the lower mainland, you have a lot of asians actually playing the sport (a ton of philippinos, chinese, east indians, etc). I think the NBA still sees Vancouver as a gateway to Asia (Japan, Korea, China, Philippines, Taiwan, India, etc), and with good management, and solid LOCAL ownership, I think the NBA product can, and will thrive here. There is a market for pro basketball (at it's highest).

Exactly. Aquilini's have been in the news the last couple years about wanting an NBA franchise, this is no surprise. He was connected to several teams, the Pacers, the Trailblazers, and now, the Hornets. Time will tell if he's willing to make a go at it. The best time would be shortly after the lock-out is done. I think, as of right now, there is nobody who wants to buy the Hornets, much like no one wants the Coyotes of Phoenix.

Just for reference, here's what BC place looks like with Baseball (before renos):

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...estadium05.jpg

Look at the right-field line seating. That looks horrible.

Here's the Metrodome in Minneapolis for example where the Twins finally left last year for their new Target Field. Which, was apparently the worst ballpark in the majors after the Expos left Montreal:

http://m1.ikiwq.com/img/xl/aSw0eMAII2duY2zU1lIf0b.jpg

Baseball at BC place would work on the short term (2 to 3 years), but it's clearly a football/soccer venue first and foremost.

That's why I don't think MLB would work here in Van., because if it needs a brand new ballpark. I just cannot see it being done. Hard enough for the 'Caps to get their new soccer-specific waterfront stadium done, can you imagine the size of a MLB ballpark for Van? How would that ever get done? It wouldn't, and couldn't be with taxpayers money. Just wouldn't make sense after BC Place has just been renovated.

NBA will come here before MLB ever will. Although, I wouldn't mind both coming here :D

My money would be MLB would work better here in the long run. Especially getting numbers from people in Surrey/Abbotsford. Just look at the numbers for the womens canada cup which is held annually in surrey. In 2004 they had about 94000 people come through the gate. Thats womens and in Surrey. Also with Brett Lawrie now playing with blue jays people from the west coast are a little more excite about MLB since we have a local boy in the big league. Surrey's whalley little league is also pretty big which likely mean quite abit of fans from there. While Vancouver itself i dont see being the biggest fans of MLB the surrounding suburbs i can see drawing into it. cause baseball is pretty big out in abbotsford too.

But how many of those people from the suburbs are willing to drive out to Vancouver for games? That's a lot of traveling. I'm not convinced that people would drive for games in Van. With that being said, I still see the new ballpark as a hindrance to getting an MLB franchise here in this city. And the lack of a salary cap, is also going to hinder the success of a MLB franchise.

Personally, I think the NBA is more viable here, both, short term and long term. Again, this is saying that management is solid, and ownership is solid as well (not like the previous regime of the Grizzlies). I am hoping for a return of the NBA to Vancouver, but like many people, I am also realistic in that if it does happen, it probably won't happen within the next decade at least. And I can only see the NBA returning under the Aquilini's Canucks Sports and Entertainment (CSE). That's Vancouver's ticket back to the NBA.

I'm pretty sure plenty will travel out. Plenty already do for canuck, white caps, and cfl games. Heck alot of people i know also travel out for Vancouver giants games.

I would imagine that if an MLB team were to come to Vancouver, which it wont, it would be in Surrey. There isnt the room for a Baseball specific stadium anywhere in the CoV and locating somewhere near the highway in the burbs would probably put the team closer to the bulk of its fan base anyway. I could see it being somewhere down on the flats in by Scott Rd Station or something like that.

http://maps.google.ca/?ll=49.202289,...h&z=15&vpsrc=6

So, you are a fortune teller? In that case, can you tell me whether in fifty-three years the NFL will expand to Vancouver?

Ok, let's assume that MLB actually has interest to expand (which it currently does not) or that there are teams considering relocation (there aren't really - of the teams facing issues, they center around their existing multi-purpose stadiums, and as with Florida, these issues get addressed with new stadiums).

Vancouver would be the 3rd smallest market in the league, ahead of two Midwest cities that have had teams for many years and have a loyal baseball following in Kansas City and Milwaukee. And while I have only been to one of those two cities, I can safely assume that neither offer the wide array of summer activities as Vancouver.

Add to this that MLB would want a baseball specific stadium at least planned, would make it extremely difficult.

Vancouver is a great city that is exhibiting strong growth, but I don't buy that we have some particular demographic feature that would make an MLB team work here. And yes, it would have to be just as popular in the Fraser Valley as in the City; we would need people coming from everywhere for all 81 home games.

Furthermore, while baseball may be increasingly popular in Asia, in my experience, the Asian population in Vancouver is largely disinterested in attending outdoor sports as evidenced by a disproportionate few Asians I see at Lions, Whitecaps and Canadians games. I realize this is a generalization on the entire Asian community, but I find it odd, especially considering I see a fairly accurate representation of Metro Vancouver's ethnic makeup at Canucks games (and previously, at Grizzlies games).

Surely if there was some pent up demand for baseball, wouldn't Nat Bailey be able to sell out more, instead of being half empty a lot of the time? Okay, I've heard the typical response "It's only single-A, it's not good baseball", but even the people who do go to the games don't appear to care about baseball, most are just there for the novelty of it.

I appreciate some of the arguments being made here guys, but let's be realistic about this. A feasible business case to bring MLB to Vancouver would be very difficult to create; not just because of Vancouver as a city, but from the MLB perspective, Vancouver isn't on anyone's radar, except for maybe exhibition games (and, fingers crossed, maybe a real series) at BC Place.

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The NBA is a league in a constant state of flux, and while Vancouver would still be one of the smaller market teams, we have a lot of wealthy people here (including CSE owners) and a growing market with a stadium ready to go. I think the probability of the NBA coming back is vastly greater than MLB ever coming here.