Beasley Lofts | ? | 12 fl | Proposed
 

134 Mary Street/134 Cannon Street

New Condo

A friend of mine on the Fire Department was at this address on the weekend for what turned out to be a broken sprinkler pipe. This was, I believe the Cannon Knitting Mills Limited. It has been vacated and cleaned out. I believe they moved to Scarborough

The building is for sale for $799,000 by DTZ Barnicke Limited and here is part of the description from the MLS web site. “Textile Mfg. building on the South/East corner of Cannon & Mary Street. 3 levels of approximately 110,000 sf total. Built in approximately 1860 & always used as a textile factory.”

When the property manager showed up they found out that the building has been sold to a Toronto company who is planning to turn it in to condos. They have completed an internal environmental study and found no problems. They are awaiting and external environmental study before closing the deal.

Interesting was when I checked the address in Google Earth, it has Mary Street lined up with truck taking all of the equipment out of the building.

That's awesome if that's the case. Although I walked by it a month ago and was thinking condos, but the crowd outside of the Good Shepard building had me questioning that.

Fantastic news indeed! Funny - in my many walks around the city, I don't recall that corner. Good Shepherd aside, it looks like a neat part of town.

I can't see anyone wanting to live ON Cannon with the current street design. I once did. I didn't have a conscious appreciation for urban form back then, but I do remember it being hard to back out of the driveway due to the volume and speed of traffic. Now that I think about it, walking places wasn't much fun either.

The plethora of automotive and other low-value-added land uses along Cannon is of course as much of a problem, but this works in synergy with bad street configuration to keep the street undesireable for all but the most utilitarian uses.

depending on what the units are priced at, i could be interested in that when the time comes to buy.

i don't mind the grit/one ways so much if you've got decent windows, and the location is really central, plus i like the building a lot. not as picturesque as living on James in those proposed acclamation ones, but still close to almost everything including the hospital.

This is one of the best looking industrial buildings in Hamilton. The nice part of the building doesn't face Cannon and one of Hamilton's nicest rowhouses is just a block or two away.

I'm assuming this is the building we're talking about?

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...59.986289&z=16

So much potential
 

There is a great park for sitting and walking your dog behind it or off your balcony. Not that far from HGH. 2 blocks from the police station and constant bike patrols. New School and a rec centre. Food basics a 3 block stroll and James street markets a quick trip.
Hopefully this will raise the bar as yes there are some shelters, the good sheppard and Wesley Centre closeby.
But the more eyes with vested interest will deter the vagrants and they will migrate. :haha: :haha:
Good luck also the new Shoppers is not far.
Imagine if they were to put a Mall at Barton and Ferguson.

This is the good side though:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ley/00053a.jpg


And these are the nice homes down the street:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k2...sley/00088.jpg

And this one:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k2...mmer/00166.jpg


This area is much nicer than people tend to think. This could be an amazing neighbourhood, you don't find stuff like this in too many Canadian cities.

Not too shabby, a lot of potential in that building. Strolling down the street via Google Street view, the area is better than I expected. Two blocks down going towards downtown could really use some buildings to fill those empty lots though.

Yup. Gorgeous. Or so I've always thought as I'm whizzing by on Cannon.

There was a 3 bed, 2 bath, 2-story house directly across from those rowhouses (white siding) that was on sale for 99k a little while ago - took a few months to sell though, possibly because of the group and halfway houses around it. The houses immediately near it though were all very nice - and it has a 155' deep lot! In the middle of the city!

I really, really like the idea of a smaller condo community instead of a highrise for this building. The success of this project could lie in the pricing and layout of the units - and the maintenance fee. I can't imagine they'll make it a super-luxe building, but I hope it's a reasonable condo fee.

I wonder why they chose this location and this building...with so many other empty buildings in better locations ie. aberdeen, locke, downtown etc. hmmm must be something they know...

Price per sf!

I'd love to get a white-box condo and finish it from there.... I wonder if Hamilton will ever get onto that market.

I've been quiet on this for a while but I cant anymore.

I'm only going to say this.... because I know a bit about this building.

I worked summers in there. My aunt co-owned and CEO'd a textile company there. she was the last remaining tenant, up until the early 90s. *think of a locally known Jewish family name and ad "textiles" after it and that was the name of the co.* She employed about 20 people at the end, making hotel bed comforters and drapery for schools. It occupied the third floor. I didn't have anything to do. I don't even know what my job was. Mostly to get sandwiches from Genuine bakery and lift anything heavy. I was the only male worker + 20 other ladies at sewing machines who had worked there for 40 years. So that was my job, part sandwich runner, part heavy lifter and part security from the soup line patrons outside.*not that I could do much but I was a 19-21 years old and could do more then 20 grandmas, they were cute ladies*. And I guess I just wandered around until someone asked me to do something. anyway enough down memory lanes.

I know who the owners were. I loved the building. The vastness, all hardwood, brick interior walls, tons of windows, you didn't even need lights during a sunny day. And it kept ok comfortable in the summer from the very high ceilings. Giant sliding wooden doors from floor to ceiling. They were like the original office partition walls. it had a horse-drawn elevator thing. Gigantic weighing scales that measured in the 1000s of pounds. And it smelled like clean linen and wood..... a good smell.

However. I have 3 cousins who r firefighters. The building is near the top of the list for most fire hazard.. My aunt said the insurance costs were enormous because of the fire potential. Insurance wanted it routinely inspected to keep the fire insurance.

I don't mean to discredit Fair's source. It may very well be true. I hope it is.

An Interior environmental inspection could mean anything from what I just mentioned... an insurance requirement. Or like my cousins have told me that they routinely inspect it anyway... because of its potential.

Also if that building were to have a fire, they are instructed to not enter, its not safe and will be a fast burning fire like tissue paper... just keep people away and let it burn. The only stair wells are at opposite ends of the building, it's quite a distance. They're large and concrete but still, get out asap. the thing is coming down in minutes, was what I was told. Lots of old wood and lots of fabric. I was told this weekly if you smell smoke... maybe that was my job walking around. It had sprinklers but the sprinklers were retrofitted on *I'm guessing bc the ceilings are sick high* 20 feet. A hot fire would turn the water from the sprinklers to steam before it hit the fire.

When you're together with 3 fire fighters the convo is usually about fire stuff, and gruesome accident stories. So my aunts building always comes up.

This is what Im saying.

Im sure all the fabric is gone but the tiny fibres are still everywhere in bedded in the 150 year old wood. So what I know is that building is regularly checked by the FD anyway. Because of the area, arson potential and it wouldn't take much for that building to be up in 100 foot flames.

I'm just saying I'm hopeful that it becomes condos, but based on an environmental interior study... which could mean a lot of things. Its probably good structurally its a triple-brick, I-beam posts and wood floors. There's not much else to it. same on all 3 floors. It's standing and not much can happen unless it gets on fire. Someone's wish to turn it into condos does not mean it will. It was sold, that's great. I know the owners' family and they had pretty much all moved to Toronto now anyway. and they way they do business is over a big family lunch, site unseen.... send out some inspectors.. family to family. They buy properties like you and I would playing Monopoly.

That's all I'm going to say.

I'd be absolutely heart broken if this beautiful building became victim of a fire. This is probably one of the most beautiful old industrial buildings we have left. The only ones I can think of that compare are the old hobo hardware and ball packaging plants on Victoria and Wellington, near Barton. Even the Studebaker plant feels modern compared to these Confederation-era buildings. They're amazing relics that we need to protect from danger.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ley/00053a.jpg

that's not it... this red brick building with gables.

It's the building on the left of the photo. you can begin to see two pilasters and three windows.

I thought all of those buildings were interconnected?

No.

you can see the floor to floor difference. This red brick bldg is 4 floors and the Knitting Mills is 3 floors and still taller. Which is why I mentioned the enormous ceiling height.

Also this red brick building, has gables on the roof on corner section *likely original section*, then a fire wall and probably what came next is an annex... a nice job too. because it matches perfectly except for the roof/top floor. The annex builder cheaped out, instead of gables and nice cornice brackets, (almost a mansard roof actually) they built a 4th vaulted ceiling floor.

The red brick bldg and its annex are likely interconnected but the building on the far left and bldg on the right are not.

you can see how thick those walls are, triple clay brick or more, but that's about as tall as they could build before reinforced concrete. These are just like the collapsed Balfour bldg on KW. The exterior walls were load bearing. Unless you added flying buttresses *reserved exclusively for churches and cathedrals* you couldn't go much higher or the exterior walls would collapse from the weight. Unless you built a pyramid but .... whatever...

Lister on the other hand was the next generation in building technology. A interior grid of re-enforced concrete pillars. The exterior walls could be anything light weight because the floor plates are cantilevered off the interior grid of pillars. Now it's usually a glass curtain. but then it was a brick and stone curtain with embellishments. That also marked the beginning of the SKYSCRAPER.

Thanks for the last few posts. I enjoyed reading that.

To clarify, it wasn't my source but rather LikeHamilton's source.

Ditto. Fascinating stuff.

Can the building be retrofitted to meet fire code for residential apartments? Or is this a lost cause?

They are all interconnected and are part of the sale. The building(s) are fully sprinklered and has a working fire and burglar alarm system.

Me too. Thanks for posting all this, realcity.

Interesting stuff Realcity...

I think that any Victorian buildings are huge fire hazards. A lot of the best looking ones burned down long ago. These problems are not insurmountable though, Stinson School and others would have the same concerns.

Thanks very much to Realcity for the personal stories and knowledge. Great stuff!

My husband and I, and another couple were both walking by today... and we all agreed... this is one of the places we'd look into buying if the space and price per unit/fees were right. I'd said it before but its nice to hear interest from other people too.

Man I was walking past here today but started from the Cannon side and though would this be a sweet conversion, like already mentioned the park is right there. Anyway then coming about the Mary St side I remembered seeing something about this on here.

Anyway has anyone herd anything bout this recently?

Still for sale, it seems. Looking for a buyer/developer who wants to turn it into something.

$799,000 asking price
$23,000 annual taxes

with 110,000 square feet that's $3.48 a square foot as-is.
107,000 square feet or so is the main space.
16-foot ceilings.

Links:
Listing
PDF

I don't know what the cleanup would cost to make it residential-ready, but a mix of finished and 'white box' units (plumbing/wiring/subfloor, those who buy add their own fixtures/finishes) could go well.

The square footage means you could get in a lot of units... the ceiling heights allow for really great mezzanine levels and living space configurations. Even the parts that directly face the street could be work space with residential farther away.

So you can get big lofts, some live/work spaces, you can get a whole slew of studios and workspaces... lots of possibilities with the roof too for greenspace/gardening/water collection.

It could become quite a varied building, and its proximity to James North means it could tie in a whole stretch of Cannon too.

I'm dreaming, eh? Where's a developer with the vision and the cash flow to do any of that?

I'm wondering if we need to start calling some developers ourselves.

Man If I had money Hamilton would look a lot differant than it does.

Hello everyone. I'm a Toronto based developer who happened
to come across this building online and was struck by how it met the street,
the beautiful brick facade, and the proximity to the park.

Drove down to see it this weekend, and I was amazed at the stock of
historic buildings and homes in the area. The building itself is exceedingly
pretty and would look gorgeous fully restored. It has great proximity to the
GO as well. However, I did notice that the roads were a bit deserted despite
it being a weekend and there wasn't a lot of pedestrian traffic either.

I've done some research for comparable conversions in the area and
checked out Stinson's School conversion (which is roughly 7 minutes away
from this property). I would undertake a conversion that would be decidedly more industrial/modern that the one he's proposing solely because I feel that
the intent should be to provide space that is flexible and ductile.


So I'm here on this forum to get some feedback from local residents.
Would you live in the area? What price/sq.ft would entice you to purchase here? What size units would be ideal? Do you see demand for live/work lofts in the neighborhood? What are the negatives that you would prevent you from considering a project here?

A big thank you in advance to everyone who takes time out to provide their opinion!

Cheers

I would love to live in this area but I think the biggest turn-off for this building is Cannon St. itself, with its fast moving traffic, narrow sidewalks and heavy use by transport trucks. Until that changes, I don't see any residential getting done on that street. Which is a shame, because the success on James North has to expand somewhere. I'd put my money on Barton St. first.

The biggest turn off, as posted above, is the fast moving one way traffic on Cannon Street and the unsightly people that inhabit the park and the Good Sheppard building across Mary Street. Even still, the building itself is an absolute gem and is in relatively good condition given it's age. I'd personally overlook the traffic problems to live in a wonderfully restored, industrial building like that.

I live near the Stinson lofts, and the neighbourhoods are COMPLETELY different, although they're close - different incomes, dynamic, attractions, proximity.

Harry Stinson also has another project, the Hamilton Grand, at John and Main - almost halfway between the Stinson lofts and this building. Completely different projects again.

A project nearby that has more in common with this than the Stinson lofts are the Film Work Lofts nearby on King William. Stinson's buyers are almost all out-of-towners downsizing from houses who enjoy an urban environment and pretty luxe surroundings.

This is my entirely biased, entirely personal opinion, not saying i've got a business expertise with this:

Obviously you have to develop it in a way that makes it the most marketable and makes the most money. Following the Film Work lofts' lead and the units they have could be the most successful way to go - there's obviously a big market for what they're doing, which is awesome.

Given the proximity of the building on Cannon to the James Street North arts district and some of the jobs downtown, I'd also market to Toronto transplants who are moving to Hamilton, but a younger professional crowd looking for great urban space, not downsizers like Stinson's lofts. Those who would rather own than rent live/work space in close proximity to James North.

It is a cheap neighbourhood, but there's some beautiful houses around. There's also a few drop-in centres nearby and some very derelict places too. The park is a big bonus for dogs and kids.

A few months ago, myself, my husband and a couple I know walked by this building. Three out of the four of us are Toronto transplants, and we all agreed it would be great to buy flexible, large units in this building -- but only if the condo fees were low and there weren't a lot of amenities to pay for driving up the price. Otherwise, why not buy a house where the mortgage is only $700/month? I don't like how every 3 bedroom condo in the city has $700-ish maintenance fees -- that drives me far away from buying a condo when houses are so inexpensive.

If I buy a loft, I want large, flexible space that I can build a mezzanine in. And given the location and that the windows are old, I want windows that block out the noise and vastly reduce the heat loss in the winter. I'd even buy a "white box" condo if it was cheaper/had lower fees - I'd love to DIY the floors/fixtures/cabinetry instead of tearing out "builder's beige" stuff I didn't like and putting in new stuff, or paying a premium for higher-end things overall.

There's already projects like the Rebecca Street lofts that are 1 bedroom and a few 2 bedroom spaces, and while there's a bit of a loft aesthetic, the space is too small and inflexible to do anything with... That's definitely useful for a lot of people, but not something I personally want.

That said, I'm only one person, but we don't have much good BIG loft space in this city, let alone one that's reasonably priced for those who would look to own a condo instead of a house.

I would live here. In fact in 2 weeks I will be moving from the Mountain to John and Burlington St area. Not too far from here. Like everyone else has said the traffic on cannon sucks. But Aside from that I think its good.

Welcome to downtown, Urban_Planner. I hope you enjoy your stay!

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in such detail! I took a look at the Film Works Lofts project and found it quite attractive, both in pricing and in design. It is rare in Toronto to come across a historic building as beautiful as the Cannon Mills building that hasn't already been re-purposed. Reviewing the pricing for some of the lovely period homes in the neighborhood (which, sadly, seem to have been neglected) I noticed that it would be a lot cheaper to just purchase an entire home than to purchase a condo and pay significant condo fees. Having said that, the cost to bring these homes up to par with a newly converted loft would be substantial, so perhaps a well priced, creative loft conversion would be successful. It's difficult to gauge demand at this point.

I will be researching the neighborhood further. Thank you to everyone who responded to my initial post.

Cheers

Hello,

I just found this thread and wanted to add my two cents, especially to symmetryd (who hopefully is still checking the forum), but also to anyone else who has the wherewithal to develop condos.

This building has fascinated me for years. I don’t know quite what it is about it, although I think it’s to do with the enchanting mix of styles (the ‘Dutch colonial’ bit mixed in with the more traditional warehousy bits and the Victorian bit with the nice storefront at the back). I am so fascinated, in fact, that I decided to poke around about it and found this thread. If this building were converted to condos that work with the original features of the building (so, maintaining the exterior – and hopefully some interior – features that make the building so charming), I would DEFINITELY buy, pretty much the day the signs went up.

My thoughts are in line with emge’s – ideally I would want to be able to customize the space (including size, layout and finishes), and I think that high condo fees are a turnoff in a city where property costs more generally are low. Good soundproofing between units, as well as from the street, would be important. BTW, I’m not a huge fan of the Film Work Lofts, because I feel like they’ve skimped out on the windows, reducing the curb appeal and the “warehouse” feel of the building – I haven’t seen a model suite or anything though, so can’t speak to the interior. And yes, detached housing in Hamilton is CHEAP – but I think there would be a niche for people who are looking for a more urban/modern feel and who would prefer to do without yard maintenance etc. (not to mention renovation headaches…)

The traffic on Cannon is loud and steady, but no worse than other major downtown streets. Parking could be a problem - there are lots nearby of course. Key downtown amenities are very close by (the farmer’s market, James St. N. shops, Copps/Hamilton Place, art galleries); it is a reasonable distance to the downtown GO station (and I hear rumours that the Liuna Station – another urban gem – may be pressed back into service, which would make the GO an easy walk); and Bayfront Park/waterfront trail is not at all far. The park that skirts the south and east side of the building is a real plus. And who knows, maybe a café could run out of the store front? One can only hope…

I bought a house within a five minute walk of the knitting mill. I looked for a house for close to two years and feel in love with it. I had seen it on the MLS listings and decided not to look at it based on location only. My real estate guy showed me the house and I decided to buy it, despite the location. Since I have moved in I have not had any issues at all with the neighbourhood at all. That is not to say that some people who wander through may appear a bit off but as of yet no problems at all. My neighbours really look out for one another from shoveling each others snow to helping with project/reno's to keeping an eye on each others properties. I don't own a vehicle and I find within a five minute walk I can get on a bus to take me in any direction within the city. In addition, the go station is walking distance from this location.
I don't know whether condo's would attract families but Dr.Davey's school is a S.K to Grade 8 public school with incredible perks. They offer a free afterschool program for kids which I believe is the only school in the city that offers free childcare for school age children. A breakfast club. The playground is unbelieveable for a school park complete with rockets that spin.
The "new" farmers market and library, theater aquarius, copps collisium, hamilton place, art gallery are all within walking distance.
Many great resturants are within this area too.
The pier complete with walking and biking trails, splash park for kids, trolley rides and boat tours, huge outdoor ice skating rink and a pub/resturant with a massive patio overlooking the harbor is about a 20 minute walk from this location as well.
This area may have it's rough spots but after living in the area for close to two years I absolutely love it and have no regrets buying a house in this neighbourhood.

Sara

My experience mirrors your's almost identically. We first moved from Toronto about 3 years ago and many of our friends were very skeptical about us deciding to move to the neighbourhood but I have absolutely no regrets. I am so grateful that I was able to pick up my beautiful house for a steal. I am now involved with the Beasley Neighbourhood Association (see http://ourbeasley.com if you're interested) and we are always organizing big community events and looking for new people to join and help make it an even better place to live, work and play.

The For Sale sign is now gone at the Cannon Knitting Mills. Rumour has it that some out of town money from Toronto picked it up for the price of a Scarborough duplex. I also hear the folks from Hotel Hamilton are involved in some capacity.

Can anyone provide more details? Not exactly million dollar loft condo country over here in Beasley, but a live/work space for artists would be great.

Seeing that the Beasley Neighbourhood Association just had a neighbourhood visioning workshop that included this building, I would hope that whoever picked up this gem is willing to work with the community to maximize the benefit for everybody. Lots of potential here, lets make it work....

you hope we all hope
 

i hope it happens

REAL CITY = EPIC FAIL. Its always negative negative. To me thats worse then the land speculators.

I thought realcity was a member of the city's Economic Development department?

:D

Hamilton Realty Capital Corporation (HRCC) purchased the property in late January, 2011, with plans to redevelop the site into residential/condo units, with some additional retail/commercial uses.

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/...1_PED11086.pdf

That Hamilton Realty Capital Corporation be approved for funding under the ERASE Municipal Acquisition and Partnership Program (MAPP) – Brownfield Pilot Project in the amount of $13,335.

Thanks for the update SteelTown.

At the Art Gallery of Hamilton forum "Restore, Repurpose or Replace: What happens when a building gets old?" last week, Glen Norton said there was a large vacant downtown property that had been purchased by the city/HRCC but he wouldn't reveal what it was.
Now I can stop guessing!

The Enhanced Reductive Dechlorination process sounds interesting: "ERDenhanced is a proprietary and Patent Pending formulation consisting of food grade additives and a macro-micro nutrient package which leverages existing site conditions, stimulates microbial activities, and effectively expedites contaminant deconstruction."

It would be interesting to find out how long we have to wait after pumping this cocktail under the building to see if it works.

What?! This is some of the best news I have heard for Downtown in a long time! Condo lofts in Beasley?! Fantastic!!

There were rumors floating around that this was going to be torn down. The Bldg fits so well into Beasley Park it's redicilous to imagine the park without it.

I'm ecstatic!! Thanks for the news, Steeltown! Hopefully action starts soon!