Panhandlers
 

Panhandling 'societal issue': Mullan

November 18, 2009
Daniel Nolan
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/674724

Police Chief Brian Mullan has warned that his department does not have the power to resolve complaints about panhandling and loitering in the downtown core.

Local politicians and the Downtown Business Improvement Area are calling for a cleanup of the downtown prior to the 2015 Pan Am Games, particularly targeting the problem of panhandlers.

They have been joined by Tourism Hamilton, which sent a letter to the Hamilton Police Services Board complaining about the "troublesome" panhandling problem and asking police about its plans to correct the perception "the downtown is unsafe."

Mullan, who is in his last weeks as Hamilton's chief before he retires, told the police board Monday the department has done much in the last four years to combat crime downtown, including installing surveillance cameras and bringing in horse patrols. He warned, however, loitering and panhandling are different.

"That speaks to societal issues that are more out of our control," Mullan said.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger conceded that police may not have an answer to dealing with panhandling, and acknowledged this is a "rights issue." However, he said it is the top complaint he hears about in the downtown and people "are frustrated by it." He has asked for a report on what more police can do, but said control efforts might also have to involve the city.

If we can have bylaws for locations for mobile signs, drive thrus, hot dog stands, etc. Why can't we have bylaws prohibiting panhandling in certain sections of Hamilton? Say a bylaw against panhandling along King Street from Bay to Wellington.

Did a quick google search and sure enough Calgary has a panhandling bylaw....

http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server....anhandling.htm

You cannot panhandle within 10m of the entrance to a bank, automated teller machine, transit stop or pedestrian walkway (pedestrian walkways include +15, or any below or above grade walkway, but not a sidewalk).
You cannot panhandle between 8 p.m. and 8 a.m.
A panhandler cannot obstruct the passage of, walk next to or follow the person being solicited.
You cannot solicit money from an occupant in a motor vehicle.

If the sidewalks downtown were wider than two shoulder widths across, this would be a non issue.

I've had a panhandler follow me to my car begging for money so I doubt bigger sidewalks would solve the panhandling issue.

I never found panhandling to be particularly bad in Hamilton. Ottawa definitely has more, and it hasn't hurt their tourism industry. There are bigger fish to fry, panhandling is one of those bugaboo issues that people find easy to complain about. Getting a few panhandlers off the street will not make any significant contribution downtown Hamilton's fortunes.

what's wrong with panhandlers.... jeezus... i always give them money.


If there was more normal people the street people would be drowned out by the numbers. The only way to get rid of the streetpeople is to attract residents, business people, patrons, tourists..... but obviously that's not going to happen.

Rid the streets of the panhandlers and the streets will be empty.

Mullen was a horrible police chief

good riddens.

1. Cover up with Dhinsa. His own cop making sexual advances to other female cops.
2. Worst transparency ever
3. His cops investigate City Hall corruption and "find nothing wrong". OPP conduct same investigation and lay criminal charges again Moody
4. Vranich's get off with rape

Just off the top of my head.

And the lower crime rate>... Please... every city in NA is reporting less violent crime.... it has to do with demographics. US/Canada are countries turning into old people. Older people tend not to mug and rape people.

And yet... people don't feel safe downtown.... nice job Mullen

Seriously? So downtown Hamilton entire streetscape is nothing but panhandlers? Isn't that a problem worth tackling?

I would support a bylaw restricting panhandling. We all know it’s all about the image. Having a guys with dreadlocks, warts, black teeth, stinks hanging along King St isn’t exactly a nice cozy image for downtown Hamilton. That was the imagine CHCH replayed over the last two days regarding panhandling in downtown Hamilton.

But it will make some significant contribution downtown Hamilton's fortunes.

I'm saying what basically Stinson said. Every city has homeless, panhandlers, people with mental illness living on the fringes of society. The problem with Hamilton is that there is not enough of the "other" people to drown out the image of so many homeless.

I'm definitely sure Calgary has homeless, panhandlers and people with mental illness living within the downtown area. But they won't panhandle since there's a panhandling bylaw. Shouldn't Hamilton deserve the same kinds of bylaws?

I take a real offense to that statement. You don't know how close everyone is from falling through the cracks, marriage/family breakups, kids leaving abusive situations, people with mental illness and don't get treatment/drugs, addiction problems.

These are people.... humans... citizens. Do you actually think this how they want to live? Do we collect them in one area? Just to keep them out of view? SO the world can say, "I'm moving to Hamilton, in fact I'm moving my whole head office there because I didn't see any homeless people on tv"

Yes portraying an image is one thing. But when people discover that 'image', 'brand' was a lie, it is even more damaging then the truthful image.. as bad as that may be.

What's that saying?... a society is judged by how it treats its poor, elderly and disabled. Didn't the China dictatorship do something similar before the Olympics.

I'm going to give more money to panhandlers now. in fact when I go to Jackson Square today I'm buying a mickey of run and giving it along with $5 to the first homeless person I see on York and saying Merry Christmas. And I'll do that every week until xmas.

No. the reason they panhandle where they do is because that's where the people are.

Not much point panhandling along John and Wilson.

and how is a panhandler going to pay his ticket? what address does he/she give the bylaw officer? What will happen when his bylaw tickets add up? Will they levy his/her property tax bill?

It is so fukn stupid.... It's only to make it look like the politicians are doing something. Must be getting close to election time??? Better pass a ridiculous unenforceable bylaw so people living near Lime Ridge Mall say "good for my council, it's about time they cleaned up those dreadlock, dirty people"

Spare Change? Help a 49er?

Sure give more money, it'll only feed the drug dealers daily income and hurt the drug abuser. Instead give a cup of coffee, that's what I do. Or instead donate the money towards a food bank.

These people choose to be on the streets, they can go to homes, shelters, hospitals, addiction centres and affordable homes. We didn't choose to enforce bylaws against mobile signs, hot dog stands, drive thrus, etc. We were forced to do so.

Get enough fines and they'll put the person in jail, perhaps sober up and seek for help.

I'm not going to belabor this. I made my rant.

If you took every panhandler out of Hamilton (which is impossible in reality) downtown would still have all its other problems. Pandhandling is really an insignificant issue and not any more of a problem in Hamilton than anywhere else.

Besides, you can't criminalize people for being poor.

I think we live in a country (and especially city) where you are able to eat and live with shelter if you choose so. You are given a shelter allowance through multiple programs which is high enough to pay rent in Hamilton. In addition, there are food banks, soup kitchens,and surplus $ from social assistance around where you are able to have a meal.

I do not think pan handling is necessary. Basic necessites of life of shelter food and cloths are provided to those willing.

I agree with the point that giving money will often feed drug habits. I never give money to panhandlers, but I do give money to a food bank. Why give money to somewhere that you do not know where it is going?

A by-law is a good idea. We should try to make the core more business oriented. Drugs and aggressive panhandlers is anti-business and unnecessary in this country.

You can't solicitate in front of buildings, or parks after 11pm and you definitely can't solicitate at shopping malls. I've once got booted from taking pictures of a building. Why can't our city have the powers to do the same?

"If you chose to" exactly... I believe we also live in a country with the freedom of choice too.

It takes all kinds of people to make up a city. Pan handlers are just one of those groups. To blame them for the plight of downtown is just a smokescreen to mask the fact that city council just doesn't know what to do.

The panhandlers in downtown Hamilton are few and far between compared to other cities I've been to. Just go to Toronto where you trip over them walking down the street.

We have always had them downtown and always will. I remember a guy that used to park himself in front of what was then Woolworths downtown. He was legless and blind. He had the tin cup beside him and played his harmonica. He was there every day for years. There were panhandlers there 30 years ago, when the downtown was thriving, and they will still be there 30 years from now. They are neither a symptom of any particular problem in the downtown or a cause of those problems. They are a fact of life in the downtown. Lets deal with the real problems.

^^ Bigguy is right on with his last post.. every major urban centre in the world has panhandlers. We can ban them from malls and big box store parking lots, but streets and sidewalks are public areas.

What bigguy said.

I take my kids downtown at least once or twice a month. The first time my kids came face to face with the reality of poverty and homelessness was when I took them to the symphony in Toronto and we had to walk by all the people sleeping on grates in front of Metro Hall and Roy Thompson. Sure we have our share of panhandlers, but nothing like the percentage of people sleeping rough like they do in Toronto.

Hamiltonians who gripe about the panhandlers downtown don't understand the realities of cities. They think our downtown should be some kind of urban theme park: squeaky clean and devoid of discomfiting sights like people who are less fortunate than themselves, yet they think nothing of going to Toronto or New York for entertainment. I don't understand the double standard.

I agree panhandling isn't one of the big issues but it's definitely an issue, especially if we're going to invite the whole of Americas to our city in 2015.

I just think the city should have one piece of the tools needed to improve the image of downtown Hamilton. We have cameras and police officers on patrol but what's the point if we don't have any piece of legislation or bylaws if we can't do something about the panhandling issue.

We shouldn't prohibit mobile signs, flashy LED lights, hot dog vendors, prostitution, gambling and urinating on our streets since it's a public area?

I have spent a significant amount of time in Gore Park and surrounding areas throughout the last couple of years and I don't see panhandling as a huge issue here. There are really not that many bums.

Have you ever seen East Hastings in Vancouver? Watch this video - it's only a snippet of what happens down there. It's called "cracktown" and it's basically the size of our entire downtown core... probably 10 times worse than Barton Street with thousands of bums. Yet somehow Vancouver still managed to win the Olympic games.

Of course, they are freaking out about East Hastings and trying to clean it up for the games, but it's futile.

Moving panhandlers out of downtown may improve its image but it does not solve the problem; they will move to other higher traffic areas in the city where they "degrade" the image, thus causing a cyclic problem.

I am still waiting to encounter my first panhandler in downtown Hamilton after living here for several years. However, I used to spend weekends in Toronto and encountered many panhandlers there, pretty much a new one every week. Some people just simply aren't suited to an urban environment, maybe?

The only reason to panhandle is to buy drugs or alcohol. In this country, the basic human needs of shelter, food and cloths are provided no matter what. Even if you choose not to work or contribute to society. If you support panhandlers, you are supporting criminals and addictions. I hope you realize this when you are giving your $5 away realcity

Yes there are many poor policy decisions downtown, but this policy change will help. One big part missing downtown are working class people. Working class people are telling us that they want the panhandling to stop. They are not banning the panhandlers from being there they just can't panhandle others. If council wants to know how to get businesses and working class people in the area of Gore Park, listening and implementing their concerns will improve the business climate and the image.

Why not? Why not ban panhandling in certain areas out of common respect of others. Kind of like wearing cloths, you have to hold society to a certain standard. There is no life threatening reason to panhandle in this country, so there is really no excuse to do it or to give money to those people.


No, you don't understand highwater. I want my city to be a success, kind of like how Toronto and New York already are. They have ratios of common working people and misfits that allow some wonderful areas downtown. Hamilton does not have this luxury of a central business district(s). There was a time when Hamilton downtown was a place of civic pride and glorified monuments where business was conducted. It was a place where people looked forward to go to. It was called Gore Park, and it was incredibly well designed for these purposes. Unfortunately in the 21st century, it also works well for panhandlers. Businesses are calling for this change, but you seem to know better than them.

Banning pan-handling in the Gore Park area will improve business moral and performance in the area.

How about some policy changes that actually help businesses in this city?

Whatever Adam, Gore Park is dumpy and an uncomfortable and unesseccary place to stay.

a good Urban environment does not = Gore Park.

Travel, go to other cities in the world and see what you are comparing to, forget Toronto.

My sister lives near East Hastings. Fun stuff.

Toronto has a concentration of panhandlers near places like the Rogers Centre and Roy Thompson Hall because they know that's where they can get money off tourists. A few blocks away you won't see a single one because they're not "tourist" streets.

I've gotten to know a lot of homeless people there... including some who used to hang out by City Hall before that area was "cleaned up." I also used to go to church at King/University (it met in St. Andrews right across from Roy Thompson) and got to know a couple of the panhandlers outside - their names, stories. One was a husband/wife couple. They had an apartment and were on welfare- they were in a messed up situation of course, but they had shelter and food. Unfortunately, they also had a drug addiction and hepatitis to deal with. But you don't give money... if anything, you give food. And even then, it's amazing how when you talk with somebody for an hour or two, you'll see three or four well-meaning groups walk by, literally toss a sandwich down, and leave without saying a word. These people don't need your food, and the money won't help them.

And then there's the guy who gets on my bus in the morning and heads downtown to panhandle... great. Just great.

I'm not saying to ban panhandlers, but the solution isn't "oh, these poor people, let's give them $5 and walk away" because that's enabling addictions and doing nothing in the long-term.

The solutions aren't easy -- it's a long and hard road of recovery or integration into society. Stuff like THIS (idea of a guy I know from a few years back) needs to be funded - permanent solutions and community for permanent needs, not just a bed or a sandwich.

I dunno why but it seems like I get harassed by panhandlers once a week. Most of the time I wear a shirt and tie so I guess panhandlers will assume I have money to flash around. I can now completely understand why business people avoid the Gore Park area.

Once a week I park near the McMaster downtown campus across from YMCA. Most of the time when I walk to my car I'll get a panhandler begging for money, one time the guy followed me to my car, scared me a bit (walked quickly and got in my car and locked the doors immediately). I think they come from the GO Station, they probably walk towards Gore Park once everyone stepped out of the GO Train.

If someone is trying to sell you something on the street and you aren't interested, just firmly tell them that you are not interested and keep walking at the same pace you were before. This is something I learned in my 20's traveling to different countries in Europe. I lived in cities in 3 different countries for a total of 1 year. It seems that the bigger the city, the more panhandling occurs. Of course, you also get more businesses, more pedestrians, more congestion, more public events, more everything else too. Trust me, Hamilton's panhandling is mild, and this makes sense given the downtown core is barely 3kmX3km.

Just to add to the last post, I lived in Kingston for a year and found panhandling on Princess St. to be just as bad if not worse than Gore Park.

From time to time I see panhandlers in front of the Hunter GO station. Today someone asked if I had spare change for coffee, asked someone else and then asked me again 10 seconds later thinking I was a different person.

Usually it's some bullshit story about having to get home to (insert city name here) and not having enough money for a bus/train ticket. Apparently some of them have been trying for a long time since I see the same people with the same story weeks later. ;)

I still deal with more panhandlers, bums, junkies and freaks in my 10 minute walk to the office from Union Station in Toronto every day than I do in a month in Hamilton.

Who cares what their story is? They are asking for money... that's a pretty bad sitch regardless. That's someone's son/daughter maybe even father/mother.... give them money... that's the best direct charity contribution you can make... no "administration fees".

God be with you... if you ever end up in that situation. .... Allah calls it "giving Alms" one of the 7 pillars of Islam... and I'm sure Jesus says something about the poor too.... the poor shall inherit ... ah whatever....

My general belief is that handouts outside of relationship rarely solve anything.
Some of my friends have been homeless - some as children, some as adults. Some have parents that are still homeless.

However, I think that older cultures without a social safety net had a bit of a different definition of "alms" and "beggar" than we do.

I'm not saying any religious exhortations to give to someone who asks of you don't still apply, but personally I think we're to use our brains about it.

I know people with real needs, but I also know people who couldn't afford groceries, had people give them $20, and blew it on fake nails and coffee... and then did it again with a different person. How many of the panhandlers near Jackson do I see heading right into the LCBO with the money they're given, or to meet their dealer? I'm not a fan of just enabling that crap either.

Not that life hasn't been tough and they aren't coping as best they can, but I'm not going to enable that particular coping mechanism... I'd rather support initiatives that address the root issues, and will continue to do so.

That's my wine tonight and my own studies at Mac talking... combined with a general cynicism and knowing people who have made bad choices.. some stayed in, some got out. Some had kids who are now teenagers I work with.

From the new Police Chief.....

Spent time in Toronto yesterday and met a panhandler who is from Hamilton haha. He moved to TO because he said he gets more money from panhandling in TO.

From what I notice panhandlers in TO are poor whereas in Hamilton panhanlders seem to all have a drug/drinking problem.

Another good contribution is to leave "returnable bottles" for recycling as the needy do travel many miles in search of them. And most depend on them to eat.

Mic67

Hahaha..

I would be interested in panhandling economics... Hamilton's cheaper cost of living vs higher potential payout in Toronto.

It could be a Freakenomics chapter.

This is sick. you guys are laughing. Sounds like real scientific studies from you all.

I purposely do not return my beer cans or glass returnables. I put them in my blue box and they are all gone before the trucks get to it. In my *new* neigbhourhood, I've seen the contrived bikes these bottle/can collectors make with the rubbermaid containers... some are pulling 4 and pushing one.... it's impressive. They are up at 400am *sometimes when I'm just coming home* and working hard to earn a few bucks.

Some people do what they need to do.

Board to review request to police panhandlers

By Craig Campbell, News Staff
News
Nov 20, 2009
http://www.hamiltonmountainnews.com/news/article/195036

Police will review what powers they may, or may not, have to deal with panhandlers and loiterers in downtown Hamilton after Tourism Hamilton asked for an update on plans for the city’s core.

Chief Brian Mullan said a meeting with the Tourism Hamilton board was scheduled this week to discuss the request. But he suggested loitering and panhandling are not necessarily policing issues.

In a letter to Hamilton Police Services Board chair Bernie Morelli, Tourism Hamilton board president Mark Farrugia stated: “At a recent board meeting of Tourism Hamilton, the Board discussed the impact panhandlers and loiterers are having on conventions and events hosted in the downtown core.”

Farrugia identified areas around Copps Coliseum, Summers Lane –between the convention centre and art gallery, King Street and Gore Park as “particularly troublesome”. The letter states there is a perception among some convention and event planners that Hamilton’s downtown is not safe.

At Tuesday afternoon’s Police Services Board meeting, Mullan noted the board has approved several programs in the downtown, including security cameras and a mounted unit, to help address ongoing perceptions of downtown Hamilton as a dangerous place.

“I think we’ve progressed dynamically from where we were three, four or five years ago,” Mullan said.

But he said some of the issues Farrugia raises in the letter are not related to policing, that panhandlers and loiterers are beyond the police service’s control.

Police board member Mayor Fred Eisenberger said he’d like a report from police staff on what the service can do, and can not do, in relation panhandlers and loiters, as well as summarizing what has already been done to change perceptions of the downtown.

2 panhandlers on Summers Lane.... THAT'S WHY WE DONT HAVE PEOPLE DOWNTOWN??????

ANd don't get me started on loitering. We're all supposed to be in our Rec Rooms, smokin pot and playing XBox. Don't go outside and socialize... NOOO in Hamilton that's criminal... we have a term for that.... "Loitering"

Have THESE IDIOTS been to Europe... that's ALL THEY DO.... is LOITER... after dinner.... only they call it "Living". They socialize... walk around... converse... meet people.. congregate... share stories.

Tourism Hamilton????

you first have to bring tourists here... buddy... before they see one or two panhandlers.... omg.... They are not even coming here to see your 'loitering problem' in the first place.

ROK = ON Dude

Mods will Prob. delete.

Though I have no prob. with Morelli and I like councilman Sam.
I will probably financially contribute to both their campaigns.

Mic67

The most dangerous thing about downtown Hamilton is reckless drivers: speeding, making unsafe lane changes and cutting off pedestrians.

Wrong, yet again.

IDIOTS AND A HOLES....NO shortage in the hammer.

Mic67

Our core needs to be people place

November 23, 2009
R. John Dolbec
The Hamilton Spectator
CEO Hamilton Chamber of Commerce
http://www.thespec.com/Opinions/Lett...article/677634

Re: 'Don't blame fear of core on panhandlers' (Opinion, Nov. 19)

The demise of Hamilton's downtown core has been 30 years, or more, in the making, and its rebirth will not be instantaneous.

Nevertheless, the results of desperate acts remain visible everywhere. In any successful city, the core is high-priced prime real estate comprised of small offices, apartments and condominiums, with quality shops accessible at ground level.

The poor image of our core lies not in the raw numbers of "panhandlers," but in the disproportionate numbers of disadvantaged seen there in the absence of a more balanced mix of people. The fact that panhandlers are not at all dangerous, or that our downtown is indeed truly safe, are both irrelevant. The point is that people feel the core is an unattractive, indeed, for many, an unthinkable place to be.

On any given day in almost any European city, there are usually more pickpockets than all of the panhandlers of southwestern Ontario combined. Yet, most have no image problem. Their streets are overflowing with residents, workers, tourists, artists and students who vastly outnumber the rest. All cities have their disadvantaged, and no one disputes that poverty is real and poverty reduction vital.

Nevertheless, successful cities do not make its core the Mecca for those in social need, to the exclusion of others. The problem can be summarized in one sentence: Attractive people place or Tin Pan Alley?

So, we need to stick to the plan. We need to do what is necessary to attract quality living and the rest will inevitably follow. That basic premise will guide what needs to be done. Moreover, let us not get sidetracked any longer by desperate, or wishful, thinking, allowing ourselves to lose focus on the side issues.

-- R. John Dolbec, CEO, Hamilton Chamber of Commerce