Waller Creek Flood Tunnel & Trail Update Thread
 

I was at the meeting Saturday morning. Very interesting stuff. They had a few renderings of a future downtown with every block filled in with example buildings, based on the height they could be given view corridor limits. I'll have to see if I can find those online.

The comments on the article, discounting the usual idiotic drivel, almost all point out the homeless problem on the east side of downtown. We brought that up at the meeting, too, but they didn't seem to have much in the way of answers. It's the huge elephant in the room. You cannot make a "world-class destination" when all the homeless services are just a block or 2 away.

Having said that, personally I don't think it's really that bad. Of course I may be used to it, having lived in that area for 18 months now, but evidently it's a huge deal for a lot of people.

Some people think seeing any homeless person is a "big problem". I have seen homeless people in every city that I have ever visited and in most cases it is not as big of a public issue as some make it out to be. I haven't noticed it being that big of an issue downtown but since I don't work/live there maybe I haven't been exposed to it as much as some.

In spite of all the efforts to reduce homelessness you will never to able to fully eradicate it because there is a segment of that population that prefers it. All you can do is address those that want help.

I don't know about you but I don't like the weekend homeless concerts under the highway or the trash they leave behind.

The Homeless are a HUGH problem in downtown. All of downtown. But the areas around 6th/7th and Red River, including much of Waller can be scary. Between the homeless and the drug dealers around, oh, lets say 5th and Sabine... it is can be challenging just to park and walk without being approached.

So I would agree that a plan to make the creek work has to include a plan to deal with the street population in the area as well.

I couldn't agree with you more. In NYC you see the poor homeless sleeping on top of vent grates on the sidewalks in the winter trying to keep warm and you just walk on by going about your business. In Washington DC the homeless are on the park benches sleeping near almost all the major attractions and I've even seen them wading in the fountains to retrieve the coins people toss in. It is what it is.

I'm shure you could probably find homeless people down on the San Antonio Riverwalk I haven't been there in years so I don't know.

Down in the creek is where the issues are. Right now it's pretty nasty, or at least was. My dad, my brother and I and friends used to go "creeking" or "screening" down there. My dad made a square frame with 2x4s and covered it with some wire to make a screen. We would then go down into the creek and hit the holes in the creek. There are these places in the creek bed where the water flows over and drops all kinds of stuff. Coins, jewelery, and old trinkets. Besides tons of modern money (change), we also found gold rings, silver coins, gold chains, old buttons (civil war), and other old stuff. I found a Club House Saloon token, and then a few days later was offered $200 for it. We also collected old bricks that had washed in there. These were old bricks that used to pave the streets in downtown. We reused them and paved our driveway with them, built a patio and walkways in the yard. That was 15 years ago. Anyway, we also saw plenty of homeless people down there. There was the garbage, but then there was also human feces along the shore and one time I remember seeing a guy bathing in the creek.

Of course, none of the homeless people ever really bothered us, and they easily could have. It was often times just my dad and me (I was a young teenager). Other times it was my dad and I, my brother and a friend of my dad. I remember seeing plenty of them sleeping under the bridges along the creeks.

Also with every major rain came floods and trash and debris washed into the creek and would also erode away the soil, sidewalks, trees and even huge concrete barriers. So if they could control the floods, I could see a huge benefit down there. Of course, I'm kind of torn on this though, because if they do it, it'll mean no more creeking since it'll always be full of water.

I won't debate that some people get squirrelly about seeing ANY homelessness - continued public awareness is the only way to make progress in that way. I also agree that it's impossible to completely eradicate it as there will always be folks who prefer living that way. Of course not all homeless are deviant, lazy bums. Many of them have serious mental and psychological problems and are literally "alone". However, that area of town can be particularly squalid and unseemly. It's almost a "district" similar to the Tenderloin in SF (but on a smaller scale).

I'm generally tolerant of homeless people and occasionally will help someone out if they are respectful, but I really dislike walking around that section of the city as it's nearly impossible not to be approached repeatedly. I've been all over the country and spent time in most major cities, so I'm not new to any of this but I'll admit to feeling a bit uncomfortable (more annoyed, actually) in that area, especially at night. It's a critical mass thing.

Yes, of course there are homeless in every city (and much worse than Austin) but to think that the city of Austin could transform that area into a beautiful, walkable, public space without some careful consideration over the location of the shelter is frankly, naive. Even now, the location of that shelter is dubious: placing a shelter full of folks, many with alcohol and drug addictions DIRECTLY ADJACENT to the most crowded, popular party strip in the city.

Very stupid indeed.

Most successful urban areas have maintained livability despite annoying, obnoxious, and dangerous bums - because they were so livable before (they achieved critical mass). Some, though, like San Francisco, teeter on the edge of failure even given that critical mass.

We don't have critical mass here, at least not now. It's really important that Joe Suburbanite not be hassled by bums while downtown so that when his CEO talks about moving their company down there, his very FIRST response isn't about how awful the street environment is thanks to all the bums.

Note I keep using the 'b' word. That's what it is; ignore the apologists for the homeless; and NEVER listen to jerks like Richard Troxell; the homeless-by-no-fault-of-their-own aren't the ones hassling you for money. The people who just lost a job and are trying to get by are in the shelters getting fed; the guys on the street are taking your money and putting it directly into alcohol and drugs. Yes, they could be addicted. No, that doesn't make it any more excusable to be public nuisances (or worse).

A few months ago, I had to shepherd my 5-year-old around such a creature at Toy Joy, for f*ck's sake. The whole time some clueless naive do-gooders on the neighborhood lists kept going on about how noble the 'travellers' are. GMAFB.

Well, I get what you are saying and for the most part agree. The reason I'm hesitant about labeling all of them "bums" is because of the ones with serious mental and/or psychological disorders. I've known some people like that and it's incredibly sad and frustrating when they stop taking their meds (which is part of the disorder) and take off, eventually ending up on the streets. But then again to be fair, most folks like that aren't actually asking for anything, they're just out there being unstable and possibly dangerous.

As for the parking lot panhandlers - nothing infuriates me more than getting cornered as I'm entering/exiting a store or getting out of/into my car. It puts me in a downright uncharitable mood and should be discouraged by the city.

And again, for the Waller Creek Project: I would like someone to explain to me how they could possibly sell that idea to the public and/or investors with the shelter (and its .5 mile ring of fire) a block away.

Kevin, why haven't you subscribed to my feed, yet?:shrug:

This is a snippet of my waller update from last week.

"1) We learned that the City is negotiating the purchase of three contiguous lots located along southbound frontage road and bounded by 4th and 5th Streets. This area hosts the east bank of Waller Creek between 4th and 5th and is currently used as a surface parking lot. The land acquisition will be purchased with funds from the Waller Creek Tunnel Project, and will likely become a temporary staging ground for the construction of the tunnel. Ironically [to me at least] these lots are not on FEMA’s 100 year flood maps, and therefore wouldn’t directly benefit from the tunnel improvements designed to remove land from the 100 year flood plain. The lots are encumbered by Capitol View Corridors, though. You can see the lots under “Kuykendall Addn”."

http://downtownaustin.files.wordpres...pg?w=515&h=453

I read it every once in a while. How do I go about subscribing to it - besides just visiting the site regularly? By the way, you have a really nice website going there. I read the article about the sidewalk cafes sometimes taking up too much space and bellhops and valet and maitre d' podiums really hogging up space. I definitely agree about that last one. One place where this especially happens is at Gueros on South Congress. With all the foot traffic through there, dining tables, waiters with food, the podium and the fact the sidewalks are way too narrow through there, it can be almost impossible to get through there sometimes.

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Thanks! I'm a member of the Waller Creek Citizens Advisory Committee. Yes, it's definitely a tight squeeze at Gueros, but I cut them slack because that building existed long before the Great Streets program was enacted.

Cool, thanks. I've subscribed.

Thanks, Scottolini. The city has been struggling with this property for a few months. Since this is going to become a staging area, this will become an eyesore for the next 4-5 years and a pain in the ass for the Hilton Garden and Sabine; conversely, once the creek is done, they stand to benefit the most.

http://impactnews.com/central-austin...er-destination

http://impactnews.com/images/stories...02/01-plan.jpg

http://impactnews.com/images/stories...21-project.jpg

http://impactnews.com/images/stories...02/21-pond.jpg
Rendering of inlet structure and pond at the 10-acre Waterloo Park.
Courtesy City of Austin

notice the "faultline" identified on the section (second drawing). I have never seen that on a drawing! Wow! What a reminder!

Looking at this map, what would be nice is having that proposed street car or light rail bridge take the Trinity Street route. The bridge could then meet up very near where Waller Creek empties into Lady Bird Lake, maybe not too near, but near enough that the hike & bike trail along Waller Creek could jut over to the bridge, so that the trail could then cross the river.
http://impactnews.com/images/stories...02/01-plan.jpg

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/pr...ler-creek.html

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/...ostCommentForm

I for one am definately willing to make that huge sacrifice to of 40 cents per month to see this come to fruition, lol.

I wonder if we will start to see development happen while this is happening or if it won't happen until after completion,,,it sure would be nice to have not only the creek ready but also some retail and residential right there to make it more pleasant.

couldn't agree with you more! Definitely an under appreciated and misunderstood asset that I think naysayers will like once they see the results.

The amount of money this will generate for Austin's economy will more than make up for the new tax. They said 40 cents over 13 years would generate $55 million in tax dollars. Hell, if even one single residential building or hotel or office building is built anywhere along the creek, the cost of building that one building would easily pump $55 into Austin's economy. Halting the floods that happen on the creek will free up 27 acres for development. You could put up to 60 buildings with ease on that amount of land with room to spare.

http://impactnews.com/central-austin...city-of-austin

They have finally started construction on the Tunnel today.

any idea what they will do first?

Anyone have any pictures of the machines they are using to dig the tunnel? I have some very weird fascination with that sort of stuff. When I was going to school in Boston I did a report on the different kinds of tunnels in NYC and would go down there on many weekends to learn more about it (even well after done with my report) just because of how much it fascinated me. I also get made fun of because of my DVD's on them building the Chunnel. lol.

They are not going to do any real digging for a few months, and when they start, it will be a 70 foot deep hole at Waterloo park where they will be able to lower the drilling equipment and head south. I'm still trying to imagine the inlet where the water will be directed. Its going to have to be built to prevent large debis and people from getting in, but how do you keep it from clogging at the same time? Curious to see the design. They will probably be able to get quite a bit of work done on the lake side before the tunnel connects to it. That will be an incredible day! Maybe not as incredible as the Chunnel. I would guess there will be access to the tunnel at least by a select few to document the occasion. Does anyone think some significant surface work can begin now along the creek, before the tunnel completion in 2014?

I don't think a ton of work can be done until the tunnel is complete other than maybe clean up and creek restoration. Parts of Waller Creek are really nasty right now.

Interesting question. Maybe they will have the ability to back-flush it by activating valves that would re-direct the outlet flow.

I'm having troubles understanding exactly where it will be positioned, and also the areas that are marked "Development Opportunity" just east of Trinity culdesac. Do they plan on tearing down the assisted facility located there? The old boat storage sheds in front of it make sense, but after that they would have to tear the assisted facility down to make it development op wouldn't they?


http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/wallercre...tive_xsecs.pdf

I think they've just had the groundbreaking ceremony. But yes, construction should start any day now.

At first they will be digging the vertical inlet tunnel at 4th and I-35, behind the Gas Pipe and the Palm Door, where the surface lot is now. Since that is right next door to where I live, I will be sure and let you guys know when the big machinery arrives.

Awesome thanks!

I'm really looking forward to know what they are planning on using. My experience with the ground here in Austin (my garden, and landscaping around the house) is that there is no clay or much of anything but rock, rock and more rocks in our ground. :D Should be interesting to see what they plan on attacking those rocks with.

The entire point of the project is to be able to pump water up the new tunnel when water levels are low...This is what will maintain a pleasant flow level in Waller Creek (which we clearly don't have now and is one of the reasons it is so unappealing down there now). When heavy rains occur, the pumps will be turned off and the tunnel will be solely used to move water to the Lake and get it away from that area of downtown.

As for where the inlet structure is, it is the building that is located on the south (left side on the map JAM provided) side of Waterloo park. It will be part of the retention pond that will be created at Waterloo (there will be a dam to create this pond). It will house pumps to keep the water flowing, as well as debris removal apparatus. From what I recall at one of the meetings, a group of engineers told us that there will be a large grate system that prevents debris from getting into the tunnel, as well as a crane and claw like system that helps scoop the debris into trucks to be taken away (that is why the building back directly onto 12th). The crane is supposed to be powerful enough to handle any large (they said Volkswagen size) debris that would be swept down the creek. There are also a couple of other much smaller inlets along the route to help route water during storms. The main outlet is along the lake, and will allow water to flow into the lake, and also back into the tunnel during calm weather so it can be pumped up to street level and flow pleasantly down the creek. That actually is the main difference between San Antonio's system and this planned one. San Antonio has very little elevation change, making it easy for boats to navigate. This system is closer to a hill country stream than the riverwalk because the water has to flow down about 50 ft. from start to finish.

I don't know if I cleared up any of the confusion (sorry if I made it worse). But if you need more info, the tunnel project website (not the Master plan) should be able to help.

http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/wallercre...htm#tunnel_vid

Best explanation to date, thx. I'm hoping for significant waterfall features to drown out some of the traffic noise. I would imagine cleanup and some engineering work can begin on the creek after the digging begins. Another question I have is can all or most of the water be diverted to the tunnel so that the creek can be dry for maintenance?

So how many more years? 4.5? I wish it was done already! :)

The digging is only going to be visible at certain areas downtown. The rest will be underground with the tunnel boring machines. Because of this, if the will is there I am sure much of the work could start as soon as the project in full swing (and investors are confident the project will proceed to completion). I use the term "will" here purposefully because that really is the next step in this process. Under what I understand of this entire project (and anyone else that has more info about this project correct me if I am wrong), the tunneling project, which includes utility relocation, the tunnel, the inlet, outlet, creek side inlets, site restoration, and maybe the boat house, is the only part of this entire plan that is funded (and even that is based on TIF projections). There is no money or funding scheme set aside for any of the nice drawings of parks and paths we are seeing on the Master Plan. The plan is just that, a plan that needs political (and that might be contentious in some parts of the plan) and economic will. Hopefully the tunnel project will generate that. Once it gets started, businesses might be more willing to invest in the area. Until then, there are no real concrete plans or timelines saying when we will get all these visible aspects of the project. Just a vision and some hopes and dreams.

One final note: because of what I just said, I honestly don't think the TIF district would of ever fully paid for this project. Already we are seeing a new tax on water bills to pay for it. Let me make this clear...I AM PERFECTLY OK WITH THAT. The Waller Creek tunnel project will more than pay for itself in the long run in both economic and social benefits. But I think that the fact that TIF would pay for all of this project was just used as a political maneuver. In the long run, 10-20 years, maybe there will be the development necessary to pay for all the other improvements necessary for this project; things like the nice walkways and pretty terraces area again separate and unfunded. However, many of the supposed business that are going to move in and take advantages of those facilities (and pay for the TIF) are going to want to wait for the visual improvements to at least have started before they commit. The city might push them to put in the improvements themselves but that would increase costs and might dissuade some investors. It is a little of a chicken and egg situation. The businesses want the trail improvements, but the city needs them to be there to pay for the trail improvements. Like any large infrastructure project that lays the first groundwork for development, it is pretty optimistic to think TIF will pay for all of it. And I haven't even touched the transportation upgrades that will probably be necessary to accommodate all this extra density on Waller Creek and Rainey St. But that is just my opinion and I may be wrong. Maybe this stuff will appear quickly and we will have a brand new from scratch district in the next few years. We shall all just have to wait and see.

:previous: Myomi, I would venture a guess that your right on the TIF not paying for it all, but that could also be dependent on development that occurs. If it is high density development that has big property values, it seems quite a bit more dollars could be collected via the TIF. (Milago, Legacy, Shore, 2 upcoming hotels) I don't know why the 4 Seasons didn't get grouped in, it's as close to Waller Creek as Milago. If it is low density, old shacks being converted into bars, then they probably won't contribute nearly as much. So the trade off city officials have to decide is do they want TIF $ to fund this development or sales tax dollars. My loose theory is if you let too many bars start piling up in any given area and it may deter investors who may otherwise want to develop the land for high density condo use because the investors are worried it would kill their best potential client base, which is older, higher net worth individuals - they make a property far more lucrative to investors. But these older, higher net worth people may not want to put up with the drunks and the development will never get off the ground. If this theory comes to fruition then it would be hotels and apartments that contribute the most to this TIF zone. I'm assuming sales tax dollars don't get TIF'd but don't know that as a fact. Regardless, property tax is much easier to collect and forecast.

You're not looking at the TIF the right way. Existing and short-term planned developments are irrelevant; the TIF is supposed to collect extra value from developments that were not possible without the project (i.e. future development in what is now floodplain). Milago, Shore, 4Seasons, etc. all are outside that floodplan (not even close to it for the most part).

I'm pretty sure they are in the TIF zone and contributing to the construction of the project. (Except 4 Seasons) I see it on the tax appraisal roll.

http://www.statesman.com/business/pr...inglePage=true

^ Wonderful news!

Not to take away from improvement plans - that is great news! But I think Waller Creek right now is pretty cool. If it was cleaned up just a bit and made safe to walk around its already a neat place to go. We've rode our bikes down there a few times, but my wife refuses to go anymore, too scary for her. With some police patrol, and less than a million bucks, it could be a nice place for the entire city to enjoy today.

Yeah, my brother and I used to go down there with our dad and his friends, or sometimes just our dad and us. We used to find change (coins) sometimes silver coins, jewelery every once in a while and other metal pieces. We called it "creeking". We would build these screens to sift the stuff on the bottom of the creek. We would take 2x4s and build a box frame and stretch metal mesh over it. Then we'd go down to the creek after a good rain. You'd find a spot where rocks and metal debris had piled up. You wouldn't believe it, but the creek is FULL of metal. Nails, coins, nuts and bolts pieces of pipe and just about everything you can think of. We'd get into those spots where there was a small drop off or a hole and then shovel it into the screen. You'd sift it to get out the small rocks and sand and throw out the bigger stuff. We went down there one day and my brother found an old pocket watch. I found a Clubhouse Saloon token from the 1800s that my dad's friend immediately offered to buy from me for $200. I didn't sell it, and still have it. Most of the time we just found tons of change.

The creek is also full of old brick that used to pave the streets in downtown Austin. There's also brick in there from old buildings that had been demolished years ago and the material either washed in there during floods or was simply dumped there. My dad collected a lot of the brick and used it for landscaping around the yard, and we even repaved our driveway with it 20 years ago. It's kind of sad now. I'm glad that the creek will be a useful piece of Austin's urban core now, but I will miss being able to go down there to kneel in the creek and find those goodies.

The creek always flooded. Back in 1981 there was that big Memorial Day flood where 13 people died in Austin. Waller Creek overflowed its banks and even flooded out a car dealership along its banks. Some of those cars actually washed into the creek and were covered up. Believe it or not, some of those cars are still there. I can remember a few times walking the dry creek bed near the police station and walking right over the roof of a 1980s car. Pretty crazy. There's also spots where the containment walls along the creek have been washed out. I'm talking 10 foot high sections of thick concrete barrier wall that had been washed out from the floods.

And yeah, we saw plenty of nastiness in the creek like homeless people bathing in the creek. We saw a lot of them sleeping and every once in while would come across their uh, droppings. Pretty gross.

But I have a lot of good memories of wandering through the creek. I've walked every foot of it from Cesar Chavez to at least 15th Street.

Pretty, uh, illuminating.

http://www.statesman.com/opinion/cho...n-1438755.html

http://www.statesman.com/business/ho...inglePage=true